countrytravler Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 (edited) Fluid drive or torque converter? No cap on bell housing to check fluid and has trans cooling lines. Is this an OD? M5 or 6? Edited March 9, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 (edited) Fluid Torque Drive had a cooler in the lower radiator hose. Looks like an M6 self shifting trans with Fluid Torque Drive torque converter. Unlike Fluid Drive, a torque converter needs an outside oil supply. The first ones (1951 - 52 approximately) had an oil pan on the bellhousing like an auto trans. The later ones fed oil from the engine through special passages in the block and bellhousing. They had a king size oil pan on the engine that held 10 or 12 quarts of oil. Edited March 9, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) M6 Trans coupled to Fluid Torque Drive... isn't there a small cooler at the drivers side front of the engine with the two cooler lines connected to it? Should be...Typical Chrysler 1951-53 Hemi with FTD option. Edited March 10, 2017 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 The one I had used a steel oil cooler in place of the lower rad hose. It was a V8 model 1952 New Yorker. It had the Fluid Torque Drive with the oil pan on the bottom of the bellhousing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) A picture to show the cooler lines on a Fluid Torque Drive Hemi Chrysler with the M-6 Transmission.....The standard Hemi with the Fluid Drive Coupling will have no cooler lines or a oil pan under the coupling... Edited March 10, 2017 by c49er (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Sure looks like the unit in Countrytravlers picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 17 hours ago, c49er said: A picture to show the cooler lines on a Fluid Torque Drive Hemi Chrysler with the M-6 Transmission.....The standard Hemi with the Fluid Drive Coupling will have no cooler lines or a oil pan under the coupling... Is this an OD or a straight 3 speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) No cooling lines or trans pan. Edited March 10, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Were they all fluid drive trans equip with the fluid drive coupling? And torque converter with no clutch. That combo would not go togeather. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Articles in a Chilton repair manual. 1958 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The M6 self shifting trans was a 4-speed. It had LOW range and HIGH range, with 2 gears in each range. You shifted manually to LOW or HIGH, then the trans shifted automatically within the range. Accompanying this trans was always either a Fluid Drive unit and manual clutch, or a Torque Converter and manual clutch. Hope this is clear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 They had a clutch with a torque converter? I did not think that would work. With a torque converter that would lock up after so many RPMs, what was the function of the clutch then? Very interesting when I think that I have a handle on it. LOL!! It's interesting because we are starting to get a lot of calls with these transmissions. With this being a 4 speed, how does the OD come into play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 My interpretation is that the overdrive is in the back of the gearbox but without the freewheeling unit, whose job is now done by the fluid drive or torque converter. The gearbox apparently started as a three speed and first was removed. I understand the shift into OD is centrifugal as it was from 193? but with the governor (for slowing down) and kickdown (for speeding up) it would shift out of OD readily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) M-6 Hi-Lo 4 speed ransmissions are all direct in high range... no OD at all. The optional Fluid Torque Drive of course is a typical Non Lockup torque converter and does have a typical clutch assembly connected to the rear of it so you can shift into High or Low range and also reverse at stops and while driving (High/Low) range shifts.. For the auto upshifts or downshifts with the M-6 transmission no clutch pedal operation is required. Six cylinder cars and Dodge V8 cars with the optional Torque Converters are engine fed using up to 12 Quarts of engine oil. Chrysler 1951-3 V-8's with FTD have their own torque converter sump and are filled through the fill plug hole on the drivers side side of the torque converter sump pan. Fill with the engine idling in neutral. Fill to the bottom of fill plug hole. Simple to service and not often.. The six cylinder cars just to change the oil you have to drain the engine and the separate Torque converter.... a major pain in the you know what and 12 quarts of oil too! Edited October 28, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) They chose to include what they call a "Safety Clutch" between the Fluid Drive unit and the transmission. The transmission was a typical synchromesh type, with a hydraulic self shifting mechanism. It was not an epicyclic type like the Hydramatic. That is why it needs a clutch to shift. When they made the "Fluid Torque Drive" they simply substituted the torque converter for the fluid drive unit. The torque converter was optional at extra cost, Fluid Drive was standard equipment on Chrysler and DeSoto. They made Fluid Drive in various forms from 1939 to 1953, then replaced it with Powerflite. Powerflite was a conventional 2 speed epicyclic, or planetary gearbox with torque converter. Torqueflite is a 3 speed plus torque converter introduced in 1957. Edited March 11, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 People seem to never fully understand these Fluid Drive/ Hy-Drive/ Fluid-Torque Drive/ Tip-Toe Shift/ Presto-Matic/ Hydraulically Operated Transmission/ Vaca-Matic / Simpli-Matic / M-4/ M-5 / UnderDrive and on and on.....Why don't people understand these transmissions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I think people don't understand because there is so much misinformation out there that has be written by people who didn't understand these transmissions. If you do a search and read all the questions and replies it seems to me that many OP's miss-identify what they have and what they want to know and then some of the first replies are answering the wrong question. Then finally a few of you knowledgeable members chime in and correct all the errors. I knew nothing about these various WPC combination other than having driven a Hy-Drive for a few weeks. From reading the questions and answers I realize that this era Chrysler Products were a quite formidable foe to the other "big two". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tinindian said: I think people don't understand because there is so much misinformation out there that has be written by people who didn't understand these transmissions. If you do a search and read all the questions and replies it seems to me that many OP's miss-identify what they have and what they want to know and then some of the first replies are answering the wrong question. Then finally a few of you knowledgeable members chime in and correct all the errors. I knew nothing about these various WPC combination other than having driven a Hy-Drive for a few weeks. From reading the questions and answers I realize that this era Chrysler Products were a quite formidable foe to the other "big two". Can you give some examples of the questions then the wrong answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Just read this topic from start to finish. From your original question that seems to say you don't know what you have or what transmission it is. Read every answer closely and you will see that there is as much information here about what you don't have as what you do have. If a person were to skim over the details they could be more confused at the end than at the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, c49er said: People seem to never fully understand these Fluid Drive/ Hy-Drive/ Fluid-Torque Drive/ Tip-Toe Shift/ Presto-Matic/ Hydraulically Operated Transmission/ Vaca-Matic / Simpli-Matic / M-4/ M-5 / UnderDrive and on and on.....Why don't people understand these transmissions? I have been wrenching since the mid-60s in the Detroit area. I have owned and operated 4 full-service gas stations to a warehouse to work on big trucks. I worked for the City Of Detroit in the Municipality Garage. I have never come across any of these until I started working for Dodge city 6 years ago. I have worked on Slim jims, dual range Dyno flows to Hydramatics, turbo Glides to power Glides, turbo 200s to 450s and MT 40 to AT 540s. Saginaw 3 and 4 speeds to T10s to M21 and 22s. Ford O Matic to Cruise O Matic. 727s to 940s. NOW!! You tell me why I have never seen or worked on one with 40 mechanics working for me with thousands of cars going through my garage? My dad even ran a trans shop out of our garage in the 50s and 60s. So, I think that covers a wide area. I want to learn all there is to this trans because they are fascinating on how they work. I have been buying tools to work on these also. That 49er, I think he is the most knowledgeable person on here with a few others. Im going to have to talk him into on doing a class and I will be in the front seat. And to answer your question about why people are not knowledgeable? You tell me from the statement that I just made above. Edited March 11, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 How about a liquimatic transmission?!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, Tinindian said: Just read this topic from start to finish. From your original question that seems to say you don't know what you have or what transmission it is. Read every answer closely and you will see that there is as much information here about what you don't have as what you do have. If a person were to skim over the details they could be more confused at the end than at the beginning. That is a picture from an FB page and no details about the combination. I have done a lot of research and followed 49er post and gained a lot from him. Someday, I will pass his knowledge of these transmissions. LOL!! The only way that will happen if he kicks before I do. I have had experts telling me that the fluid never needs changing, that you can't push start and also can not use the trans as a trans brakes going down the hill. Had people also telling me that any Flat 6 or V8 from 35 to 53 will interchange and that is incorrect because of the engine oil feeds to the trans. ECT ECT. SO YES! I'm going to keep asking questions because I am not a no it all. Always room for knowledge and the only STUPID QUESTION is the one that is not asked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You could go nuts trying to figure out the welter of engines and transmissions used by the Chrysler Corporation in their various models, between 1939 and 1959. "Fluid Drive" vs "Fluid Torque Drive" is barely scratching the surface. As to why you and your 40 mechanics never worked on one, that is easy. None of them ever broke down or wore out, Now that they are 60 to 80 years old, some of them need work. Usually because they are low on oil or the wiring is crumbling from old age. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, c49er said: How about a liquimatic transmission?!!! Never heard of that one. But I do have a trans book that has 2000 plus pages for transmissions from 1930 to 1972. My dad had it. I forgot about the Road ranger trans and heavy equipment to forklifts. I was a Boiler Repair Man in the Navy. Worked on Oil fired Boilers to turbines to Nuclear Power Propulsion Units on ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: You could go nuts trying to figure out the welter of engines and transmissions used by the Chrysler Corporation in their various models, between 1939 and 1959. "Fluid Drive" vs "Fluid Torque Drive" is barely scratching the surface. As to why you and your 40 mechanics never worked on one, that is easy. None of them ever broke down or wore out, Now that they are 60 to 80 years old, some of them need work. Usually because they are low on oil or the wiring is crumbling from old age. They had to break down or they would not have Kent Moore make all those specialty tools and all the manuals. And you would see 10,000 GMs and Fords to one Mopar. Remember!! This is Detroit that I'm talking about. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Liquimatic was Ford's idea of an automatic drive used in some Lincolns and Mercuries in 1941 and 42. They were such a dud all were recalled, swapped for manual trans, and the whole affair hushed up. After the war they bought transmissions from GM (Hydramatic) and Studebaker (Borg Warner). I believe the first transmission that was all their own, was in the 1956 Lincoln. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 The transmissions were made in Livonia MI on Plymouth and Merriman RD. The place had a major fire. https://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Biggest_Industrial_Fire_in_History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I know a man now about 65 years old who operates a garage and junkyard started by his father in the fifties. He has been hanging around and working there since he was a toddler. I asked him for a Fluid Drive transmission once and he told me in all seriousness that in all the years the place was open, I was the first person to ask for one. That is why he never kept any. This guy was a Chrysler fan from way back, although his taste ran to Hemis and 440s, he had a stock of parts for Chrysler built cars especially muscle cars but no Fluid Drive or M6 transmissions, although he knew what they were. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Another real knowledgable person is George in PA. He is about 85 and I talk to him a lot about the ODs. I have learned a lot from George. When you call him, have a pot of coffee ready because he will talk to you that long. Great guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Mopar did not have enough power to break these transmissions. LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) You obviously never drove a Hemi powered Saratoga, New Yorker or Imperial 1951 52 or 53 model. They were the most powerful cars of their day and set speed records. The Fluid Torque Drive models were actually faster than the newer Powerflite models with the same engine. But you are right, they designed a transmission that could handle anything the engine could throw at it, even in a 6000 pound limousine. Unlike the cheap transmissions used by inferior makes. You know, the ones you rebuilt so many of? Edited March 11, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 When I worked in parts at a GM dealership (1960-1974) the Kent Moore tools arrived in the service department at the same time the initial parts books arrived in the parts department so we could have some parts on hand when the new cars were delivered in a month. It was always fun trying to guess which pieces might break right away. We were sometimes right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: You obviously never drove a Hemi powered Saratoga, New Yorker or Imperial 1951 52 or 53 model. They were the most powerful cars of their day and set speed records. The Fluid Torque Drive models were actually faster than the newer Powerflite models with the same engine. Ya! you're correct. Edited March 11, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said: You obviously never drove a Hemi powered Saratoga, New Yorker or Imperial 1951 52 or 53 model. They were the most powerful cars of their day and set speed records. The Fluid Torque Drive models were actually faster than the newer Powerflite models with the same engine. My dad was a professional roundy round racer back then. He was driving Lincolns in 53 and 54 that was a constant winner. Edited March 11, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 When I was hauling cars, I picked up a restored 51 Mopar with a Hemi and it did not have enough power to go up on my upper deck. I had to put it on the lower deck. I remember that it was a Hemi when we open the hood. It was a beautiful car. It was a black convertible. That is why I was putting it on the upper deck because it being a convertible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I have also seen FTD Hemi cars with bad Torque Converters that couldn't get out of their way just like Plymouths HyDrive cars that were a sure loser with the Hy-Drive torque converter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 More and more of the M-5 and M-6 transmissions are needing internal repairs now days... I sure have done enough of them... parts are too hard to get now.. blocker ring and sleeve packages, 12 tooth input shafts. oil pumps ect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) How about a 51 New Yorker attacking Pike's Peak? Possibly the only 5000 pound 131.5" wheelbase rallye car in the world. Edited March 11, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 In January 1951 just days after new model introduction Tom McCahill set a new record at Daytona Beach driving a New Yorker sedan borrowed from the local Chrysler dealer with 400 miles on it. 100.13 MPH, the first stock sedan to break 100 since the supercharged Cord in 1937. Seems tame now but dynamite in 1951. A New Yorker also won a 250 mile stock car race in Detroit and that was about it. The car was too heavy, too expensive, and the 131" wheelbase too long for stock car racing. Later, a guy named Carl Keikhaefer showed them some racing with 55 Chrysler hemis but that was a different car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: How about a 51 New Yorker attacking Pike's Peak? Possibly the only 4500 pound 131.5" wheelbase rallye car in the world. 354 was only in the 56-57 Mopars-Modified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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