ernee0722 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Ok, I have searched to my best ability for info on the 47 but everything is for later years and it looks like this is one of the biggest problems with these closed dynaflow torque ball systems. I have a leak that is a little more than I care to have but not terrible. I have read these leaks can contaminate the diff. fluid, Is this the case with the 47? I have looked at parts on many websites and almost everything is for 48 and up. Any recommendations for parts? Is it worth it to do this repair and how long do they last if done correctly? Can the car be pushed around after this is started or is the diff. removed? Is there any other things I should replace other than the obvious if I should do this. I have done a nut and bolt restoration on a 67 mustang 25 yrs ago but this older stuff is a little different but I'm sure I can get it done. Any info on what I should get as manuals, parts, etc. on or any of my other questions would be great. As I stated before, I just got this a few weeks ago and just finished a color sanding and buffing. Seems to be in pretty nice shape except for a few things here and there. Needs a good going over before I take it too far from home. Thanks for any advice or info you guys can give. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim65 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) Beautiful classic, lucky man pity I don't live in the states if you can pick finds like this. cheers pilgrim Edited March 5, 2017 by Pilgrim65 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 ernee, the "can contaminate the diff" is for a Buick with Dynaflow transmission. It is an internal leak past a seal on the driveshaft [ pilot shaft ] that lets ATF run down the torque tube to the differential. You say the leak is a little more than you care to have. We all have different tolerances for oil leaks. Maybe a little description of the amount. A drip or two over night. A puddle over night. How big a drip or puddle? Perhaps slide a pan underneath after a drive and show a picture here. Often times, if the car has not been driven much, the leak will lessen as it is driven more. Let us see and we WILL advise. The job of repairing is not too difficult. And the '47 is little if any difference from from later. You need a Buick Shop Manual. They are readily available, if not an original then a "copied" one. Ben 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 First Born, Thanks for the info, the leak would be about a 7 inch circle puddle overnight. It has little 2 inch puddle every time I stop for any length of time and I have been driving it about 4 times for about 70 miles in the last 2 weeks. Just drove it today and will look tomorrow morning and get a pic if I remember. Its manual trans so wouldn't be ATF. Can it be moved after this is started in case I have to reorder parts or some surprise. I'll have it in a friends shop so I want know if it would be in that spot and for how long. If I order all the parts right it shouldn't be too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Ernee, Your Buick sure looks to be a 1947, but Dynaflow was not offered until 1948. My guess is that your car has a 1948 to 1952 transmission an possibly engine as well. Determine what you have and buy the torque ball seal for it. You can do the replacement in your shop. You will need to lift the car on 4 jack stands under the car on the frame. Disconnect the shock links and the panhard bar. The rear end will now swing side to side on the springs. Unbolt the torque tube from the transmission. Hook a come-a-long to the rear end and to something stationary (another vehicle's trailer hitch.) and pull the rear end back about 3-4 inches. You will have enough room to change the seal. Reverse to install. You should have it done in half a day at the most. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Wow! One lucky owner of a very wonderful looking convertible! Thanx for posting the pix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Hey, Dave he has a standard. Your directions are spot on. Not much longer than changing u-joints on an open drive shaft car. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 Great! Sounds easy, Now just determine the engine and tranny and get the parts coming. Manual is on the way. Any special tools I need to come up with? Also, any tips on determining what year the engine and tranny are? Thanks again guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 61polara is correct. I changed my clutch on my 53 Special by using a bumper jack and pushing the rear end back, if I had it to do it over I would use a come- a-long it would be a lot safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 I don't know why I used Dynaflow torque ball in my explanation ,I guess I read about it and thought the 2 were connected, I have 3 sd manual with a torqueball leak. Just getting to know about these old Buick, I now know Dynaflow is a automatic but thought it pertained to the enclosed drive shaft system, Live and learn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 9 hours ago, Tinindian said: 61polara is correct. I changed my clutch on my 53 Special by using a bumper jack and pushing the rear end back, if I had it to do it over I would use a come- a-long it would be a lot safer. Yeah, bumper jacks can slip Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 ernee, the engine number is stamped on a "ledge" just in front of the distributor. Post that and someone will let you know what year it is. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Jacking it back is an old flat rate mechanic trick to beat the clock. Most commonly it could help sneak in a reverse strut arm in less than an hour on the Dynaflow cars. I don't think it is worth pushing all the 70 year old parts in the direction they weren't supposed to go and there are a lot of things you can do with the rear end rolled out. Not speculating here, just a "do as I do" thing. It's not that hard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 That is the way I do it ,Bernie. I do remove the wheels. Probably can have it out in an hour, if i do not piddle around. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Mine rolled out on bare rims. The wheels are back on for transport. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, ernee0722 said: I don't know why I used Dynaflow torque ball in my explanation ,I guess I read about it and thought the 2 were connected, I have 3 sd manual with a torqueball leak. Just getting to know about these old Buick, I now know Dynaflow is a automatic but thought it pertained to the enclosed drive shaft system, Live and learn I have a 54 with 3 speed. Pulling the rear is easy. Tip, once you unbolted the shock arms, hard pan, coils and nuts/bolts where it is secured to the transmission level the rear using a floor jack under the axle. Pull back gently. The key is keeping the entire torque tube level with the transmission. It should come apart without a come along. It did on my 54. Now, the 90 weight gear oil dripping from the manual trans, mine was coming from the input shaft. The clutch got covered in gear oil. You should consider replacing the clutch while in there. I jacked up all four corners. Pulled the axle far enough back to get the transmission out. Maybe 10 inches. No need to pull the entire torque tube if you don't need to. Basically what it looks like apart. Get a vulcanized torque ball seal. Drive happy! Edited March 6, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: It's not that hard. It definitely isn't easy in a gravel driveway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Some of my best work used to be done on a gravel or crushed rock driveway. Not any more, got to be smooth under foot now. It's also interesting how much lower my car is to the ground than it was half a century ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Beemon said: It definitely isn't easy in a gravel driveway. A few thick boards will go a long way on a gravel drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 And do not forget!! The bolts holding the springs to rearend are LEFT hand. Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Lots of good info here and many different Ideas, Thanks a lot guys for the input. I checked my engine today and the number is 499572I-5,, I believe it is a 47,,,,,,,,So a vulcanized torque ball seal is all I need? I'm thinking I may need more than that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 57 minutes ago, ernee0722 said: Lots of good info here and many different Ideas, Thanks a lot guys for the input. I checked my engine today and the number is 499572I-5,, I believe it is a 47,,,,,,,,So a vulcanized torque ball seal is all I need? I'm thinking I may need more than that, I believe you are right. I think you'll also need: the drive shaft seal at the transmission end of the torque tube ( may come with the torque ball seal above) . The pinion seal at the pinion entrance to the rear axle carrier. The seals and bearings for both rear axles. If the fluid is building up in the rear end then the fluid is traveling down the torque tube to the rear end and the pinion seal is allowing the fluid in the torque tube to pass into the rear axle. Now, keep in mind that you may not be having this problem to this extent. After all, how many quarts of lubricant are there in that manual transmission? You may simply have lubricant splashing in the rear axle and by passing the one axle seal that is leaking. The question is have you opened the fill port on the rear axle to see if lubricant is leaking out at that location when the car is level? If it isn't leaking out of the fill port, then chances are you simply have splash in the rear axle. But if it does flow out, AND if your trans is also significantly low on lubricant, THEN you need all of this stuff. The good news may be that the trans and rear axle use the same lubricant. So other than potentially low fluid in the trans, chances are nothing in the way of the gears was exposed to significant damage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 That's good advice John, I think I will get all the parts you mentioned just because I would like it all fresh at some point in time, I don't have a lot of info on the past maintinence of this vehicle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 And thanks for the reminder of the left hand threads Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Even with a bad seal it takes a bit to get the transmission flud into the differential housing. I would hate to have someone hand me a quart of 90W and tell me to top off the rear through the torque tube. The important part, after 70 years, is that u-joint just aft of the square flange. Mine had no rollers in one cup and hardly gave any indication of a problem. It looks like a big job, but I did that one in 2011. The time it took was small compared to all the other stuff over the last 6 years. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I agree with you, Bernie. I always thought it next to impossible for ATF to migrate into the diff. But who am I to argue? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, ernee0722 said: Lots of good info here and many different Ideas, Thanks a lot guys for the input. I checked my engine today and the number is 499572I-5,, I believe it is a 47,,,,,,,,So a vulcanized torque ball seal is all I need? I'm thinking I may need more than that, Depends on how far you want to go. Vulcanized seal for the torque ball. Seal for the opening of the torque tube at the mating of the tube and torque ball. In my picture above of the splined drive shaft there is a seal there. Now, the gear oil in the manual is the same as the rear axle. If some leaks in it will not ruin the rear end like ATF does from leaking Dynaflow transmission. I simply drained the very old nasty gear oil in the rear. Made a gasket and refilled. I did not need to go any further as my axles are not leaking at the outer seals behind the drum brake backing plates. As a side note, no matter how much sealant used and gaskets cut there will always be a drop of gear oil on the garage floor every now and then. Edited March 7, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I know a fellow who did Dynaflow repairs for many years in a Buick dealership. He has a jack that has a screw that separates the two end sections. One end fits into the cross section in the frame and the other has a hole to be fastened in place on the lowest bolt in the rear end housing. The handle is ratcheted turning the screw that separates the two ends. Slowly but safely it moves the rear end back far enough to remove the transmission or service the torque ball seals. Of course, the emergency brake cable, both shock links, one end of Panhard bar and possibly one end of service brake hose are removed first. If I had a continuing use I would offer to buy it if he still has it. He is long retired now. Maybe it was a jack offered by Buick to their dealers. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 BTW, Bernie's drive shaft has that extra u joint. Your 47 most likely does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Striking out on touché ball seal for 47 manual, any recommendations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackofalltrades70 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Gotta love auto-correct! Touche' amd Touche' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 ernee0722 Did you mean "Torque Ball"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 I sure did. Sent that one from I phone and auto correct got me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 If your car is a true 1947 with a 3 speed manual tranny, the leak at the back of the transmission is an easy fix. That year torque ball used a cork seal that was tapered. Bobs Automobilia has a repair kit that includes a neoprene tapered seal. You can either follow the instructions in the shop manual, or if you want to do it the quick and dirty way then: 1. remove the 6 bolts holding the torque ball retainer to the torque ball. 2. slide retainer back and remove the broken-shot tapered seal. 3. Cut the new seal and put it around the driveshaft in front of the retainer and make sure the bevel is faced forward. 4. Super glue the seal back together, stick it in the outer retainer and put it back together. Don't breathe a word to anyone as to how you fixed the leak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Pretty sure its a true 47, title shows 82,550 actual miles, a few more now since driving it, the engine number is 499572I-5 and from what I can find on the net, that is a 47 engine so gonna take a chance and say its a true 47. Also is that a tried and tested method? I presume it is and if thats the case, I'm not a poker player but I'm all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 The key to the "quickie" repair is to remove the outer torque ball retainer and look at the cork seal. If it is dried our and split, then the technique I mentioned above will work. Perhaps not kosher, but a lot less labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 Does anyone know what that adjustment rod is for, I'm just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Fascinating. Threaded about this far. Definitely worth its weight in steel. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernee0722 Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Well, I got the torque ball seal changed out and I did it on a hoist using the come a long method. If you've never done it, and this is on a 47 Buick Super, it is a little slow and takes a bit of thinking but its not too hard. Next time is easy and having a hoist is nice so you don't have to spend the time on a creeper. The adjustable rod pictured in my last post is just a stabilizer and is installed last with no pressure put on it either way. I used 3M scotchbrite Roloc surface conditioning disks on a air tool to polish the torque ball and inner and outer retainers, it did a nice job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Glad it worked out. Sometimes I believe we over think a solution when the solution is to just get in there and do it. Enjoy your Buick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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