MaineDoc Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I have a 64 Riviera that is pretty original but the steering gearbox leaks. It seems like the easiest thing to do is to replace it. I'm looking at Rock Auto which offers the Lars 969 for roughly $100 after core charge. Is this the correct one for my application? Other vendors want $350 or so for what appears to be the same unit. Go with Rock Auto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I'd check with board member dan at larescorp. Here is a link to previous post on the topic. You can private message him. He'll know if the off-the-shelf stock remans are the best route for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I put a faster ratio box in my 63 and would recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 There's a lot of conventional wisdom and not much verifiable data about this. You can replace the stock gear box with a 16-13:1 variable ratio box (e.g. from a late 60s-early 70s Cadillac). it's been asserted that you can convert the stock box to a 14:1 fixed ratio box, but no one seems to know where to get the parts to do so. There are faster ratio (e.g. 12.7:1 and 14:1) boxes that are bolt-in replacements, but they're based on the smaller 600-series box. Will they work for a behemoth like this? Folks say they've done it... There's also a lot of misinformation about these boxes out there. Not to slag a particular company, but I spoke to a guy from Lares about these boxes a few months ago. I would only say that he was somewhere between woefully uninformed and completely ignorant. Another rebuilder said that they use whatever parts are in good shape, and that the box you get will be "somewhere around 16:1". Point being, before you go to the time and expense of swapping your box out, make sure you know exactly what you're getting for a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 12 hours ago, Zimm63 said: I put a faster ratio box in my 63 and would recommend it. What was the box from? Do you have a year and model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineDoc Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Dan from Lars was very helpful with my issue. I have ordered a rebuilt unit that will be the same as the current box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Sorry, but IMHO a bad move. ALL "808" boxes mount the same way. I've done it MANY times. The upgrade to a faster ratio box is a DRASTIC improvement over a stock ratio box. Gives the vehicle a more modern, attached feeling to the road. Another GREAT improvement is in the alignment specs. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 22 hours ago, jsgun said: What was the box from? Do you have a year and model? Mine is a 3 turn box from High Performance Steering in Auburn WA. I got it in 2006 and it looks just like the original, which was to be returned as a core. 5 year warranty. Did a quick google and didn't turn them up, so I don't know if they are still around or not. No question in my mind that I learned about them on the old Riviera mail list that evolved into this site. Car is just now starting to be driven to any real extent, but the box seems to be fine. Still need to redo the alignment per Tom T's recommendations which should happen in the next few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 On 3/2/2017 at 8:53 AM, telriv said: Sorry, but IMHO a bad move. ALL "808" boxes mount the same way. I've done it MANY times. The upgrade to a faster ratio box is a DRASTIC improvement over a stock ratio box. Gives the vehicle a more modern, attached feeling to the road. Another GREAT improvement is in the alignment specs. Tom T. I found this somewhere, is this still the best alignment specs? Castor: 3* to 4* Camber: -.25* Toe in: total toe of between 5/32 to 1/4" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I just read that the stock ratio is 19:1. I might keep my stock box for a while, just to see how crazy that ratio is to drive with. I think a 14:1 would be a good compromise between fast and light steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 2 hours ago, jsgun said: I just read that the stock ratio is 19:1. I might keep my stock box for a while, just to see how crazy that ratio is to drive with. I think a 14:1 would be a good compromise between fast and light steering. Where did you read that the stock `64 box is 19:1 ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 8 hours ago, jsgun said: I just read that the stock ratio is 19:1. I might keep my stock box for a while, just to see how crazy that ratio is to drive with. I think a 14:1 would be a good compromise between fast and light steering. Unless I'm sorely mistaken, the stock ratio is 17.5:1. And 14:1 is pretty quick. As a practical matter, it's not clear that you can get (or make) an 808 box that's faster than 14:1. FWIW, the most commonly suggested, easily obtainable, drop-in replacement box has a variable ratio of 16-13:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said: Where did you read that the stock `64 box is 19:1 ? Tom Here: http://automotivemileposts.com/riviera/prod1965riviera.html 17.5:1 seems more reasonable. I drive a old mustang with a 16:1, and it gets a bit ridiculous in parking lots. Lots of cranking. Upside is that it's so light you can almost steer it with your breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I've been doing some research, and it looks like the 600, 700, and 800 series boxes are interchangeable. Only problem is they went metric, and the input shaft and pitman shaft are different sizes. Supposedly the internals are the same design between the 600 and 800 series. I found this on a dirt track racing site: GM/Saginaw quick-ratio steering box donor car cheat sheet Late Model 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox ID markings YA, WS and HX Line Thread Size: M18x1.5 and M16x1.5 Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern) Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½ - 3 1984-'88 Monte Carlo/Malibu with Z65 suspension 1983-'88 Malibu, El Camino 1982-'92 Camaro except FE1 soft ride suspension 1984-'87 Regal with FE2 or FE3 sport suspension 1983-'84 Hurst/Olds 1985-'87 Cutlass with 5.0 (VIN code 9) 1982-'85 Trans Am 1986-'92 Firebird except FE1 suspension 1986-'87 Grand Prix with FE2 touring or F41 heavy duty suspension Pre-'76 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox Line Thread Size: 11/16 x 18 and 5/8 x 18 Number of Mounting Holes: 4, (H-pattern) Input Shaft Diameter: 13/16-inch Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½ - 3 1967-'76 Camaro, Firebird 1970-'76 Monte Carlo/Malibu 1964-'76 Chevelle 1977-'79 12.7:1 quick-ratio gearbox Line Thread Size: 11/16 x 18 and 5/8 x 18 Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern) Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 2 ½- 3 1977-'79 Camaro, Firebird 1977-'79 Monte Carlo, Malibu 1977-'79 Chevelle Jeep/S-10 14.0:1 quick ratio gearbox Line Thread Size: M18x1.5 and M16x1.5 Number of Mounting Holes: 3, (missing leg H-pattern) Input Shaft Diameter: ¾-inch Output Shaft Diameter: 1 ¼-inch Number of Turns Lock to Lock: 3 - 3 ½ 1991-'92 Fleetwood 1992-'95 Grand Cherokee 1984-'93 Comanche 1984-'95 Cherokee/Wagoneer 1983-'86 Bonneville 1982-'93 2WD S-10 Blazer and pickup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 The internals are not the same between the 600 and 800; the parts are not interchangeable. The 800 had a bigger bore and was used on bigger cars. The 600 was used on smaller cars (Camaro, Chevelle, etc.). The question is whether a 600 box can be used on the Riv. If you want to downgrade to a 600-series box, get one from a 69 Chevelle. Everything matches up. Other boxes may mount correctly, but (as mentioned earlier) some have internal stops which increase the turning radius significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 22 hours ago, jsgun said: Here: http://automotivemileposts.com/riviera/prod1965riviera.html 17.5:1 seems more reasonable. I drive a old mustang with a 16:1, and it gets a bit ridiculous in parking lots. Lots of cranking. Upside is that it's so light you can almost steer it with your breath. I dont think 19:1 is correct. Seems this spec might be correct for a Cadillac or some other land yacht. Quoting from memory I believe the stock ratio is around 17:1. I`m quite sure the factory quick ratio box is 15:1 Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/5/2017 at 8:08 AM, 1965rivgs said: I`m quite sure the factory quick ratio box is 15:1 What is this quick ratio box of which you speak? In which years and on what models was it offered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 26 minutes ago, KongaMan said: What is this quick ratio box of which you speak? In which years and on what models was it offered? Lol...a quick ratio box was available on the `65, `66 and `67 GS models Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 19 hours ago, 1965rivgs said: Lol...a quick ratio box was available on the `65, `66 and `67 GS models I'm guessing that box is not easy to find. If it's like any of the other boxes, there are no external markings to identify it; it would look just like the standard box. If you find a GS in a junkyard, I suppose you might look at the body plate to see if it's listed (was that on the plate?), but even then there's a chance it was swapped out. And if you're in a junkyard, it's doubtful you can turn the wheels lock-to-lock to check it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Nothing on a body plate or anything else that identifies a Riviera as a Gran Sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, RivNut said: Nothing on a body plate or anything else that identifies a Riviera as a Gran Sport. Doesn't the GS have badges on the fender, trunk, etc.? That is, one might have some confidence that a GS could be identified. Even so, the quick ratio box is not part of the GS package, correct? As such, might that option (H2?) be listed on the body plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Because "Grand Sport" was an option just like power windows, the external stuff is reproduced and easily added to an otherwise base Riviera. The only real way is to ID one is to find an LX engine whose Engine Serial number matches the VIN on the body. Otherwise everything is a bolt on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I understand all of that, but the question here is finding a quick ratio steering box. As I understand it, one could not order a quick ratio box on a base Riviera. If you wanted a quick ratio box, you had to first order the GS package. You could then order the quick ratio box separately (as an additional option), as it did not come with the standard GS package. Is all of that correct? The question is then whether that specific option -- the quick ratio box -- was indicated on the body plate as were power windows, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) I think the quick ratio box was actually part of the H2 handling package option and the H2 option was a separate option from the A9 option. A9 was the option for the Gran Sport. You could order them separately. According to Darwin Falk's article on ID'ing a Gran Sport, the H2 option was popular along with the A9 option but the A9 option did NOT include H2 as part of the Gran Sport option. Guess you'll just have to go lock to lock and count the number of turns. Ed PS - The H2 option will not be on the data plate either. Edited March 8, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Ouch. Trying to turn the steering wheel lock-to-lock on a junkyard car is just about impossible. Disconnecting the linkage so you can do that is a lot of work for a hen's tooth. I wouldn't particularly like the odds of finding one on a salvage guy's shelf, either... Would the H2 package show up on the build sheet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Build sheet? Like hen's teeth. I know I'm being a pain in your rear, but there's no easy way to identify these or everyone would have one. My advice would be to contact the Riviera parts vendors who advertise in the Riview and see if one of them has a quick ratio unit. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Put it this way: I'll spend 30 seconds to pop up the rear seat if there's a chance that it will save me from crawling under the car to pull a pitman arm. I don't know how popular they'd be, anyway. Would people seek out these specific boxes because they're rare, or do they want the functionality because it's useful? It doesn't seem that they've reached the gotta-have-it cult status (or absurd prices) of the rear armrest or wood wheel, for instance, and there are readily available alternatives. It may be that commonly-recommended upgrade box is more to most folks taste to begin with: quicker ratio in the corners, and you can still drive with your knee down the freeway while opening a beer. Edited March 8, 2017 by KongaMan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 https://springfieldil.craigslist.org/pts/5936566316.html This ROA member has a bunch of 1st generation Riviera parts for sale. Perhaps he has the box you're looking for Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now