38Buick 80C Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) Well once again I set off in the 38 Roadmaster 80C headed for the Boca Raton Concours. 700 miles over two days for some fun in the sun. Day 1: 400 miles. CLT to JAX... Dad in the modern Verano and I in the 80C departed around 1230 and the car ran OK most of the day. My vapor lock issue from. The Allentown trip had not subsided despite insulating the fuel line and much cooler ambient temps. In fact it seemed worse. Off came the insulation and the car ran much better. As darkness fell we drove about 90 min in the dark. The charging issues had seemed to have been fixed with cleaning the regulator points but with the lights on the gauge slowly went from a solid charge to a very slight discharge flutter. Day 2: had a little trouble starting the car in the morning but on the road charging issue seemed fixed. Turned on the parking lights and back to neutral charge...Hmm...Stopped for breakfast with a friend about 30 min south of our hotel stop... Back on the road vapor lock issue resumed and got worse...At the 500 mi mark the car really started stumbling. Off to the shoulder to try and make the next exit... Hey what's that smell and why is there water bubbles on my hood...Oh wait that's paint bubbling...Carb caught fire I guess from a backfire or something. Luckily I keep the fire extinguisher very easy to get to in the trunk. And damage appears to be limited to the left hood, air cleaner and one horn. So here I sit on the side of the road once again...Waiting in the tow truck that will take it back to my dealership in Jacksonville who will get it back home for me... So Boca is a bust with no burning Buick. But I have 6 weeks to get it ready for Autofair in Charlotte. Edited February 11, 2017 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) I was excited about Boca...I figured I would be a shoe for longest driven (not that they probably have an award for that). Bummer. Maybe there is a hard luck award...?? Edited February 12, 2017 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91vert Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Wow. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Good thing you had the fire ex. with you or could have been alot worse. Hope you have it all figured out when you go to Autofair. Cal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Yup could have been worse. But it'll get fixed up...And another story to tell. Last time I was in a burning 38 Buick I was 9 on the way to Batavia for the 1989 National. Dad left a rag on the engine...Oops... And I had my 69 Charger light up some 20 years ago too...thus I have FEs everywhere...Modern cars, old cars, walls, kitchen , etc, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Bummer! Would it be appropriate to "Like" your preceding posts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 37 minutes ago, old-tank said: Bummer! Would it be appropriate to "Like" your preceding posts? Sure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Cole Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 First, glad you are okay. Second, hope to see that beautiful Buick in Charlotte. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thriller Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Good to hear everything is ok and that you have fire extinguishers around. That's the starting point. Knowing how to use them is the next. If anyone doesn't have a fire extinguisher, get at least one. If you don't know how to use it, start by talking to your local fire department to see about instruction. I've had two jobs that have provided training. That said, as I type this, I don't know if the rest of the family has had any so I need to get on this myself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Care to expand on that vapor lock issue and particular the efforts to cure the same? I wonder if it's not an ignition problem and not a vapor lock situation. I presume you are still running points and condenser? Have you replaced the in distributor condenser? Does your system require a coil positive side condenser? Have you replaced that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 Expanding on vapor lock The car runs fine until getting good an warm. Like 30 minutes into highway speeds. Then it starts to stumble under load (going up hill). I can flick on the electric pump and it will clear up for a long while and then even that can't keep up. I used the laser thermometer to measure temp of fuel line and on day one it was 70 degrees all the way up to the manual fuel pump. The line out of the pump was 150-170. That's when I took of the insulator. On day 2 it was 140 on inlet and over 200 at the outlet. This was when the electric pump wouldn't help. Note sure why I am gaining so much heat through the manual fuel pump. And certainly outlet line is in a tough spot for air circulation going up the side of the block in front of the head right be the water outlet to radiator and then on the intake to the carb (it does cool back off be then but not a lot) So ignition could be off for sure. There are only a few things it could be... Fuel, timing, ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Ahh man, sorry to hear about the fire but glad your quick actions saved the car. Just curious, where do you keep your extinguisher? I keep mine on the floor behind the drivers seat but thankfully have never had to use it. Sorry you missed Boca! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Where is the electric fuel pump located? Since vapor lock occurs on the suction side of a fuel pump (any pump will push fuel and vapor) the electric pump should be as close to the tank as possible. If your electric fuel pump is 6V use 10g wire all the way. If the pump is Airtex brand replace with a different brand. The available winter blend fuel will boil at 100* F. You may need to run the pump constantly. My cars will vapor lock if run without the electric pump even when the outside temperature is 50*F. In the past I have found that keeping the tank full will help (less work for the pumps and replacement gas is colder). When driving slow or parked the gas in the carburetor will boil (called percolation)...usually down the throat, but will also slobber to the outside ---> Fire! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 I keep the FE in the trunk. In 38 it's just a quick twist of the handle assuming the trunk isn't locked which mine rarely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 There were 5 Buicks present and my vacant spot... The 36-80C was from the CCCA Museum. The 55 and beige Riv were from the Rick Case collection. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Can we get a bit more information about the questions on the electrical side of things? Have you replaced all the wiring, including the wires from the coil to the points inside the distributor? What about those condensers? Have you tried replacing them? How old is the coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 5 1934 Auburn's all with the clmarching color combo were all owned by the same owner. Definitely a highlight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: Can we get a bit more information about the questions on the electrical side of things? Have you replaced all the wiring, including the wires from the coil to the points inside the distributor? What about those condensers? Have you tried replacing them? How old is the coil? All are new stuff with the restoration, but none replaced since Allentown. It is points system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 hours ago, old-tank said: Where is the electric fuel pump located? Since vapor lock occurs on the suction side of a fuel pump (any pump will push fuel and vapor) the electric pump should be as close to the tank as possible. If your electric fuel pump is 6V use 10g wire all the way. If the pump is Airtex brand replace with a different brand. The available winter blend fuel will boil at 100* F. You may need to run the pump constantly. My cars will vapor lock if run without the electric pump even when the outside temperature is 50*F. In the past I have found that keeping the tank full will help (less work for the pumps and replacement gas is colder). When driving slow or parked the gas in the carburetor will boil (called percolation)...usually down the throat, but will also slobber to the outside ---> Fire! Electric fuel pump is just ahead of the passenger rear wheel on the frame rail. Could lnt get it and a filter any closer. Yes was running better with a full tank, but at the "end" it didn't matter full tank didn't help. And I started the trip on ethanol free 87 and during the trip just got what I got for Regular unleaded. It's a 6V pump, no idea what brand (at least I don't recall and can't look at it until I get the car back) and I don't recall the wire gauge size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Sorry to hear of your troubles. Glad it was not worse. I hope to see it back in good shape at Charlotte. I also hope you can bring it to the 36-38 Buick Club tour in Wilmington just after the Charlotte Meet. In my experience, the electric fuel pump solves the vapor lock issue totally on my 1937. The fact that it seems to work for a while and then the electric fuel pump is inadequate to prevent vapor lock makes me suspect something else is the problem. Coils often fail when hot. I would try a different coil and see if that fixes it. If it does not, then I would probably try a different electric fuel pump. It is possible that the fuel pump could be marginal and failing when hot. It is also possible that with a marginal electrical supply the fuel pump might work when cold but become marginal when hot. If neither of those two result in a fix, I would certainly double check all of the wiring in the ignition circuit. It is probably something minor and simple to fix that you just have not noticed. Worst case scenario, bring it to Wilmington to the tour and I am sure that all of the 36-38 Experts will gather around it and find the problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbuick Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I had the same problem on two of my old Bucks. Fought vapor lock, worse on warm days. When I used ethanol free fuel is was better and when the electric pump was left on to assist the mechanical pump it would be drive-able. Then ran great on cooler days and I thought it was fine. Well warmer weather came and things got worse. I was able to get it to fail while working on it in the shop and noticed the secondary ignition got weak and could hardly make a spark.Replaced the ignition coil with a good quality NAPA part and now car runs great. Both cars, had all the symptoms of vapor lock. A weak secondary spark will act the same. Glad you got the fire out and are keeping a positive attitude. I enjoyed seeing your Raodmaster at Allentown. Let know what the fix is. Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeke01 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I second superbuick's motion. Try a coil known to be good. It fixed the "vapor lock" on my '33 Dodge.I tried everything except clothspins to help with what I thought was a fuel problem. The car would start easily and run well but if I shut it off when hot it wouldn't start until cool. Also, are you absolutely certain that the electric fuel pump wasn't pushing gasoline past the needle and seat of your carburetor? Zeke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunchabuix Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hey Brian, Sorry to hear about your travel woes, glad to hear the damage was minimal, due to your fast thinking! Thanks for posting the Boca pix. We saw the five same -color Auburns @ the Gilmore museum in 2013 on our way home from the BCA So. Bend Nat'l. I've been driving the '41 more (not as much as you though) since I had Frank Cwilka install high-speed gear last winter. We're bringing it to the BCA Nat'l this year, look forward to seeing y'all there! Jerry 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Brian, Sorry to hear of your thermal event. Glad that you had a fire extinguisher handy. I keep one behind the seat on the truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 Got the 80C back to the house today and washed it up tonight. The engine side panel and cowl have some minor bubbling too and the wire to the horn is crispy.... Adjuster comes Sunday and then off to the races to get it fixed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Cosmetically all back together. Photos tomorrow after I wash it and put the air cleaner decal on. Now to tackle the vapor lock et al. My plan 1. Replacing the coil with a brand new one 2. Retarding the timing to prevent the back fire up through the carb 3. possibly relocate the fuel pump closer to the tank 4. Fuel pressure regulator 5. Check the carb to prevent fuel from coming out the vent 6. clothes pins :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 any suggestions on a fuel pressure regulator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 A FILT O REG Super S-300 came on my 1937 Century and seems to work fine for me. Unfortunately, I just did a quick Google search and it looks like those are sort of a high dollar item only occasionally found on Ebay now. This looks like it might be worth trying to me: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-804/overview/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/4/2017 at 7:59 PM, 38Buick 80C said: any suggestions on a fuel pressure regulator? I'm just wondering why you need one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: I'm just wondering why you need one? This era Buick really prefers not to have too much fuel pressure to the carburetor. Off the top of my head, I think they need about 3 to 3 1/2 psi. I think that is what i have read over the years, but can't find any documentation right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Depends on the output of the electric fuel pump, if it only puts out a few psi then probably not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 On 3/4/2017 at 6:59 PM, 38Buick 80C said: any suggestions on a fuel pressure regulator? Brian, O"Reillys sells, or did, anyway, a six volt pump that is low pressure. Six max, if memory serves. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim65 Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Sorry to read about your troubles , you seem positive and that's good had my xjs engine burst into flames , back in the 80s , whilst taking kids to school , got them out ok , but car needed front end respray , local garage said V12 's were prone to that. Soon traded it. cheers pilgrim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 I tried to upload pictures but the new forum stuff isn't letting me easily from my phone. Anyway new coil and retarded timing complete. I did notice less "soot" from the tail pipe idling and revving the garage so perhaps I am getting a more thorough burn now. As for the fuel pressure regulator it was suggested by a friend/restorer to make sure the electric fuel pump isn't pushing too much gas and that he did similar on his Triumph and it caused his vapor lock like symptoms to go away. Plus I am venting gas out the carb at idle while using the electric pump (probably helped the fire grow) so keeping the pressure lower should help that. I bought one so we will see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I am not understanding how retarding timing give a more complete burn unless the previously advanced timing was very excessive. An electric pump (or any pump) only pushes what the engine by way of the carb requires...maybe the friend was talking about pressure not volume of fuel (lowering the pressure will not improve vapor lock tendencies, too low will make it worse) The float valves on some carburetors are more sensitive to pump pressure --- that's why the float valve needs to be up to handling that pressure and measure the pressure at the carb. That is problem with electric pumps: if there is a leak they keep pumping and sometimes keep feeding a fire. I bet that the situation will improve in April when the summer blend replaces the winter blend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 15 minutes ago, old-tank said: I am not understanding how retarding timing give a more complete burn unless the previously advanced timing was very excessive. An electric pump (or any pump) only pushes what the engine by way of the carb requires...maybe the friend was talking about pressure not volume of fuel (lowering the pressure will not improve vapor lock tendencies, too low will make it worse) The float valves on some carburetors are more sensitive to pump pressure --- that's why the float valve needs to be up to handling that pressure and measure the pressure at the carb. That is problem with electric pumps: if there is a leak they keep pumping and sometimes keep feeding a fire. I bet that the situation will improve in April when the summer blend replaces the winter blend. yeah I agree counter intuitive, but think it may have been too excessive otherwise why would it back fire up through the carb ( i.e. the intake valve must be open for that to happen) Yeah I agree the lower pressure also seems counter intuitive, but to your second point I think the float valve isn't liking my electric fuel pump so none the less a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
91vert Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just saw an add at the top of this page for Cool Mat .com. They have a product that goes over the fuel line that they claim stops vapour lock. Was wondering if anyone has tried it and if it works ? Cal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Somewhere thee is a '32 Hudson Greater Eight that I took in for some reliability issues a little over 20 years ago. I removed the fuel pressure regulator that was installed in the rubber fuel line between the vacuum tank and the carb. And took the Tee off the top of the vacuum tank where the windshield wipers had been tapped in. I picked up a source for the wipers at the manifold. That's the two tone blue Brougham with six wood wheels. I think it is a museum in the midwest. Those automotive engineers, you gotta love 'em. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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