How does one got about finding a Packard

[31Buickroadster]

Merry Christmas Gents!

 

Most of my car collecting career, I have purchased cars pulled out of barns at auction, becoming the 2nd owner of a Brass 1912 T and 1928 Ford A Coupe. My Buick was found in an local cars 4 sale ad.

 

My Car career spans 3 decades, and I have enjoyed the frame up challenges, but I will confess, I am lusting for a 1934 Sedan. I have read with interest the stories about the cost of refurbishing a V12, if it is indeed possible, and think that for all intents and purposes, the mighty straight 8 might be more practical. I am no longer interested in restoring a Packard, but buying a beautifully restored classic that has become either part of an estate, or someone who needs to downsize, selling their baby.

 

So, how does one go about finding such a car, and a seller?

 

Happy 2017, and have a great Packard year!

[alsancle]

I would join both Packard clubs and watch the classified as well as network with the Packard guys.  There are plenty of decent 34 sedans around I'm sure.  Less if you want a Club sedan.

[edinmass]

There are two schools of thought on and eight or a twelve. I'm a Pierce guy at heart, but work on and play with Packards quite a bit now. When it comes to Packards, I prefer the Super Eight, and I'm sure a few of the boys will bite my head off for that comment. The twelve is smooth, reliable, and beautiful to look at. With Packard the eight seems to have a better power to weight ratio, and when driving hard, and spinning the motor at the upper end limits, the eight just seems to perform better over all. You won't go wrong with any 1934 Packard, the standard eight can be an excellent value if the others are out of reach. 

[Ozstatman]

Or maybe go the retail route?

Here are the '34's currently on Hemmings - https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/?makeFacet=Packard&modelFacet=&adtypeFacet=carsforsale&year_min=1934&year_max=1934

Edited December 25, 2016 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Currently there are a lot of cars for sale that would be a good canadate for what he is looking for. The usual places and suspects. My friend in Rhode Island often has a car that would fit the bill in a reasonable price range. Give Tom Laferriere a call!

[alsancle]

Here you go:  http://www.tomlaferriere.com/

[Dynaflash8]

Are there any 1946 or 1947 Custom Super 8 sedans currently for sale in one of the Packard club classified sections?  I've been looking for one of those in ready to go touring condition that also looks good.

[Guest Bondo Lover]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 1:04 AM, edinmass said:

 When it comes to Packards, I prefer the Super Eight,.......The Packard Twelve is smooth...reliable....  Packard the eight seems ....... when driving hard, and spinning the motor at the upper end limits, the eight just seems to perform better over all.

 

  

 

In the interest of historical accuracy,  may I respectfully disagree!

 

In the REAL world, by the 1930's, the Packard Motor Car Company had a hard-earned and well-deserved reputation for providing its customers with outstanding motor vehicles,  in any price-class it chose to compete int.

 

Who could deny that the Packard Super Eight was an outstanding product IN ITS PRICE CLASS.

 

But did the Packard Company cheat its customers for its higher priced products ?  

 

The new car buyer of a Packard Twelve in the 1930's spent (in today's equiv. money)  MANY thousands of dollars more for that car than what it cost to buy a Packard Super Eight.

 

Let's see if he got his money's worth!

 

If we look at engineering / elevation drawings of the Super Eight and Twelve side by side, we can see the Twelve is quite different.  By the mid 1930's, the design/engineering  of  the Super Eight was over ten years old.   Still gave acceptable performance WITHIN ITS PRICE CLASS.   The Twelve, however, was a generation more advanced.

 

Much shorter stroke,  significantly larger both "main" and connecting rod crank journals, with lighter connecting rods out of a superior chrome moly forging.   Just look at how more efficient the much more competent breathing is - both intake and exhaust - so much less restrictive.   And look at the combustion chamber itself; a modern wedge-shaped combustion chamber with wedge-shaped pistons.   Much more powerful oil pump.  And, depending on the year, the Packard Twelve motor,  (installed in the same body as the SUPER EIGHT) was some ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY CUBIC INCHES LARGER IN DISPLACEMENT, at a weight penalty of only a couple hundred pounds for this much "faster" motor.

 

Yes, the unfortunate truth is,  if you combine years of neglect with unqualified restoration and maintainence, of course you can reduce the superior performance of the Packard Twelve down to or even lower than a Super Eight.

 

But I respectfully suggest we should not try and re-make automotive history from isolated personal experiences.

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 1:04 AM, edinmass said:

 

[zdillinger]

I only have one Packard but I can tell you how I found it. Three years ago I decided to start seriously looking for one. I had budget constraints and very specific requirements (15th, 16th, 17th, or 18th series eight cylinder four door in restored or original and showable condition). I posted a WTB on the Packard Club website and within the newsletter of the nearest chapter to me. I also hounded Hemmings, eBay, etc. trying to find the right car at a price I could afford. In January of this year I had basically given up and resigned myself to simply waiting and saving more money, as every car I could find in my price range was junk and the cars that met my requirements were more than I had saved. In early June of this year (three years after posting, mind you) I got a call from an older member of that Packard Club chapter who had seen my ad in a back issue of hte newsletter and took a chance on calling me. He had a '39 120 that had been restored in 2003 and was still in excellent condition (he had the chrome redone and various little mechanical tweaks as well). After talking a couple of times I went to see it, drove it, and agreed to buy it the same day. Basically, try your hardest to find exactly what you want, have patience, and make all the contacts you can. If I hadn't put myself and my wants out there, I wouldn't have bought this beauty at a price I could afford, and I wouldn't have made a new friend (thanks again Ollie!).

Edited January 4, 2017 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Bondo Lover, I appreciate your comments and analysis.  However, your reply is to an individual, Ed Minnie, who works on and drives these cars on a daily basis.  He knows of what he speaks.

 

I do understand what you're saying, though, about performance being related to maintenance, and I'd further that comment to say that performance can also be determined by a LOT of other factors.  Rear end ratios is just one that comes to mind.'

 

I've driven numerous Packard and Pierce eights, so understand the comparison between them.  I can tell you that I've only driven two Pierce V-12's, and the performance was significantly different between the two cars.  And, they were within a year of each other, a 1934 and a 1935, so engines were basically the same.   One was a rocket, one was a struggle.

 

I get your comment, but believe me, Ed knows of what he speaks....and a well sorted out eight is a delightful car.....

[Restorer32]

On 12/27/2016 at 6:13 PM, Bondo Lover said:

 

  

 

In the interest of historical accuracy,  may I respectfully disagree!

 

In the REAL world, by the 1930's, the Packard Motor Car Company had a hard-earned and well-deserved reputation for providing its customers with outstanding motor vehicles,  in any price-class it chose to compete int.

 

Who could deny that the Packard Super Eight was an outstanding product IN ITS PRICE CLASS.

 

But did the Packard Company cheat its customers for its higher priced products ?  

 

The new car buyer of a Packard Twelve in the 1930's spent (in today's equiv. money)  MANY thousands of dollars more for that car than what it cost to buy a Packard Super Eight.

 

Let's see if he got his money's worth!

 

If we look at engineering / elevation drawings of the Super Eight and Twelve side by side, we can see the Twelve is quite different.  By the mid 1930's, the design/engineering  of  the Super Eight was over ten years old.   Still gave acceptable performance WITHIN ITS PRICE CLASS.   The Twelve, however, was a generation more advanced.

 

Much shorter stroke,  significantly larger both "main" and connecting rod crank journals, with lighter connecting rods out of a superior chrome moly forging.   Just look at how more efficient the much more competent breathing is - both intake and exhaust - so much less restrictive.   And look at the combustion chamber itself; a modern wedge-shaped combustion chamber with wedge-shaped pistons.   Much more powerful oil pump.  And, depending on the year, the Packard Twelve motor,  (installed in the same body as the SUPER EIGHT) was some ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY CUBIC INCHES LARGER IN DISPLACEMENT, at a weight penalty of only a couple hundred pounds for this much "faster" motor.

 

Yes, the unfortunate truth is,  if you combine years of neglect with unqualified restoration and maintainence, of course you can reduce the superior performance of the Packard Twelve down to or even lower than a Super Eight.

 

But I respectfully suggest we should not try and re-make automotive history from isolated personal experiences.

 

 

Welcome back Pete.

[alsancle]

I was thinking the same thing when I first saw the post.  I don't know Pete but he seems to be very knowledgeable.  Not easy to call Ed on the carpet.  Why is it that he keeps needing new accounts?

[Restorer32]

He keeps getting banned. There is no other car in the world worth restoring other than a Packard 12 and anyone running an engine with babbitt bearings is a fool, apparently. Hopefully this time he can remain calm and not push his opinions so hard.

[trimacar]

Ah, shucks, and I bit on his hook, too.....silly me....I once asked a Packard 12 owner if he drove his car much, he told me no, he was scared to, as he couldn't afford an engine rebuild if something went wrong...then proceeded to tell me he wished his car was a Super Eight instead, at least then he might be able to afford to do the engine, and he'd drive it more......

[Marty Roth]

Of course Super Eight models can have their problems as well.

Earlier models which are well maintained are a joy.

 

Our 733 Touring was initially using oil and had diminished compression when we first aquired her . This was apparently as a result of sitting for years in a private collection with minimal (if any) use. The bottom end was perfect and the rebuilder recommended against any changes there - but cylinder wall honing along with new pistons, rings, etc made all the difference. Imagine a roller cam in the lower price ranged Packard in 1930 - These wonderful machines were built to last...

 

Ask the man who owns one!

[Marty Roth]

Of course Super Eight models can have their problems as well.

Earlier models which are well maintained are a joy.

 

Our 733 Touring was initially using oil and had diminished compression when we first aquired her . This was apparently as a result of sitting for years in a private collection with minimal (if any) use. The bottom end was perfect and the rebuilder recommended against any changes there - but cylinder wall honing along with new pistons, rings, etc made all the difference. Imagine a roller cam in the lower price ranged Packard in 1930 - These wonderful machines were built to last...

 

Ask the man who owns one!

Edited January 5, 2017 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 11:11 AM, Restorer32 said:

. There is no other car in the world worth restoring other than a Packard 12 and anyone running an engine with babbitt bearings is a fool,

 

=========================================================================================================

 

Too bad  whoever told you that is not familiar with  the real-world of pre war Packards,  their engineering, and how Packard developed its well-earned reputation for giving the buyer a superb product for the dollar in ALL the price classes Packard chose to compete in.

 

I  personally was actually BORN in a "Junior" series Packard ( a '36 "120") - spent a good part of my life getting around in them - crossed the continent of North America several times in them.   Worked on them.     I can assure you from a certain degree of experience,  all Packards were outstanding automotive products within their  respective price-classs. 

 

Of course a pre-war Packard Six is not going to be a match for a Dusenburg SJ.    Of course a Packard Eight or Super Eight, with its  much llonger stroke "lower end" design dating from the early 1920's,  is not in the same league as the much more expensive and more modern design of a Packard Twelve motor.

 

Attendance at auto events where Packard owners participate would expose you to the passions most all Packard owners feel about their cars,  and justifiably so.  Of course there is the occasional exception - as noted above,  if one is stuck with a car that suffered years of abuse, combined with incompetent maintainence and repair - yes, you may find some guy bad-mouthing this or that series Packard.   Don't believe them !  Sympathize with their plight,  but get better-informed opinions!

 

I can understand why some restoration shops will utilize the "poured babbit" method to return abused motors to service.   Same reason early automotive manufacturers did it - quick and relatively cheap way to get the thing running. 

 

The alternative was and is expensive, then and now. "Poured babbit" rod bearings work out well within the limits of what they are capable of.  In the days when they were an acceptable practice,  a reasonable assumption was the car was not going to be used for high speed inter-city commuting, and anyway, the engine was going to need a major overhaul by 50,000 mi.  The modern customer of a restoration shop knows what he wants & how he is going to use his car  - the vehicle should be able to move from its trailer across the lawn to its position on the show field.    That type of customer has a right to be outraged at being charged for building up capabilities in a motor he will never use or even want!

 

I have to admit - as fewer and fewer people are interested in driving their "collector cars",    pretty hard to justify the much greater expense of doing away with poured babbit rod bearings - going to the "insert" type that Packard introduced thru-out its product line for 1935 production.

 

If there is interest, I can go into a more detailed explanation as to why the entire industry gave up on the "poured babbit" concept well over half-a century ago.  It is a fascinating story ( at least to some of us)  as to how the use of automobiles changed so dramatically.   To summarize,  with the creation of the Federal/U.S. highway system in the 1920's,  and the paving of main highways across our continent,  by the early 1930's long-distance  high speed driving became practical.  Manufacturers had no choice,  if a motor is going to meet the changes,  but to go to the much more expensive, technically challenging process of using "insert" type rod bearings.

 

I don't know how much interest you guys have in a technical discussion,  so I will leave it to you to indicate whether a more detailed discussion is appropriate.  

 

One thing for certain - making the argument that the buyer of a new Packard of ANY price class didn't get his money's worth,  is not going to do well amongst those familiar with the products of the Packard Motor Car Company !

 

 

[Grimy]

Saddle Rider / Peter / Poster-of-Many-Names / Primary Apologist for the Complete and Utter Supremacy of Packard Automobiles,

 

You took not only Restorer32's bait but also the hook, line, and sinker.  We are all smiling....

[Guest SaddleRider]

Hi "grimy"  - my apologies if you think I was attacking Resto'32 personally, or, for that matter, anyone else in here.    This IS the Packard section, and the person who started this "thread" expressed an interest in Packard automobiles.

 

I simply assumed that a discussion of the various merits and aspects of PACKARD cars would be of interest to the greater number of folks here. 

 

Be assured I like all manner of mechanical devices that go "whizz" - be assured I am also a Cadillac enthusiast in a major way.   However, the fellow starting this "thread" did not express an interest in the various merits and/or buying a Cadillac.    Should he do that, of course I would try and help him with what I know - I've owned Cad 8's  12'sa, and 16's of various years.  I have a particular fondness and appreciation of a fully optioned 1941 Cadillac 60 Special,  and the 1938 Cad. "Series 90" I once owned (hoe you wont insist on a photograph of me with that car - don't want to be reminded of what the years have done to me !).

 

Don't you think it is a good thing - benefits the old car hobby, if all of us feels free to express their opinion?   Or should opinions be restricted only for those who you approve ?     Resto32 was apparently given inaccurate info.  Big deal.   By discussing these issues,  don't you think all LEGIT. old car enthusiasts benefit ?

[Grimy]

Saddle, you and your alter ego Bondo Lover started the dismissiveness aspect in this thread. Please note the OP's question below.  Further, he said he did NOT want to undertake a restoration, just to find a finished car--WHERE can he find one?  This then segued into a discussion of engine and bearing restoration costs, despite the original question which postulated a search for a finished car.

 

"opinions" are like certain body parts--everybody has one.  Opinions expanded into rants are not enjoyed, ask any of your 'fans' here.

 

BTW, Packard was not the first to use replaceable bearing shell inserts (I recognize you did not claim that)--Chrysler Corp preceded, I believe.  My 1925 Pierce 80 has non-replaceable bronze shells which require a full re-Babbitt and line bore.  Once the technology of replaceable insert bearings arrived and was reliable, it made sense for manufacturers to transition to them, and probably the amortization of the costs of doing so was a factor influencing how soon for each manufacturer.

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:01 PM, 31Buickroadster said:

So, how does one go about finding such a car, and a seller?

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:37 PM, trimacar said:

I once asked a Packard 12 owner if he drove his car much, he told me no, he was scared to, as he couldn't afford an engine rebuild if something went wrong...then proceeded to tell me he wished his car was a Super Eight instead, at least then he might be able to afford to do the engine, and he'd drive it more......

 

Hi again 31 Buick:

 

I hope you agree we all benefit, can help others, and improve our knowledge by having access to ALL opinions.    Even a wrong opinion should be valued, considered, to help us think thru a problem.    Yes, I know, some in here believe only a "certain few" should have opinions.  Anyone disagreeing with them should be silenced.   I don't think that is the best way to help out fellow old car enthusiasts.

 

Ozstatmnan and Zollinger have given you outstanding advice as to how to find Packards that may be of interest to you, and within your budget. 

 

However, you and some others may be under some misapprehensions that could lead you to make the wrong purchase decision for you.

 

As to the reliability issue,  Trim's comments about what he heard are hardly unique, and are actually well-founded.   Because too many Packard Twelves have been turned into cantankerous, hard-to-start unreliable money-eaters.  That should make anyone contemplating an old car purchase wary.  But this holds true of any old car-especially the more sophisticated ones.   Before spending a lot of money to buy any old "Senior" Packard,  you might consider a "pre-buy" inspection by a legit Packard expert, who can review both the car itself, and supporting paperwork - someone who knows which restoration shops do what with those complex motors.  0f course my recommendation holds equally true for ANY series Packard, not just the V-12!

 

Let's get the "reliability" issue out of the way.    The argument that Packard screwed its customers,  put out a unreliable product in ANY of the price-classes it competed in,  is not well-founded.   The more money a person spent when buying a new Packard didn't get him a less reliabile car!

 

Bear in mind Packard starter motors, ignition systems, electrical components,  fuel systems, brakes, bearings, etc.,   were purchased from outside sources.    Yes, the starter motor on a Packard Twelve is much more powerful than the one on a Super Eight.  These and other chassis parts are not interchangeable.  But ithey come from the same sources, built to exactly the same standards.   ANY Packard you buy that was properly maintained, will crank over properly, with exactly the same degree of reliability and durability. 

 

 Same goes for the ignition coils, the distributor, points, condensor, fuel pump,  distributor cap, etc.    Same suppliers,  same standards. 

 

Since the above parts came from the same suppliers, once running,  the Packard you buy will STAY running, providing tens if not HUNDREDS of thousands of delightful motoring, regardless of whether the hub-caps say PACKARD EIGHT, PACKARD SUPER EIGHT...OR PACKARD TWELVE !

 

To be told, for example,  that you should limit your choice to an 8 cyl Packard out of reliability concerns simply indicates someone's  desire to re-invent history to conform to someone's prejudices.   Be assured that people who had the money to buy Packard products in ANY price class expected absolute reliability.   They got it !     Anyone who tells you that one series Packard would be any more reliable in average driving than any other series Packard, again, is trying to re-invent history for their own personal needs & purposes.

 

Yes - if you are going to engage in sustained  extreme engine rpm/speed driving,  you should read the Engineering Test Reports  about the success of the insert connecting rod bearings Packard equipped all Packard products from 1935 production onward.   (responsible engine restorers will urge that Packard  motors of ANY year should be equipped with "insert" rod bearings.   So if your desire is for a pre 1935 Packard,  you may find one you like already so equipped).

 

 I could make a weak argument that the more modern "lower end" design / shorter stroke of the Packard Twelve would have  a somewhat better chance of  surviving sustained extreme  engine speed operation than the eights - however, that famous late 1934 twenty five thousand mile test demonstrating the then new 1935 model year was done with a STANDARD eight !.

 

A properly maintained Packard Twelve sedan can be purchased for substantially less than one of the equally attractive open-bodied 8 cyl. models.   As noted previously,  of course the Packard Twelve will offer a superior driving experience to the eights - "you get what you pay for".  ( at least if you are buying a Packard!  

 

You have already had suggestions on where to look.  Obviously, body style  (open-or-closed) is a major factor in value, and what may be within your budget..    That's something only you know what is right for you.

[31Buickroadster]

Dear Saddlerider and all other contributors to this thread,

 

My head is swimming! I am really impressed with the vast knowledge and enthusiasm you all have shown on this topic, and I will continue to study your responses. I thank you for explaining some of the quirks of the mighty 12, and the flagship 8, and will bide my time, like the first date, in finding my girl.

 

In the meantime, I will enjoy cruising in my 31 Buick Sports Roadster, and dream of the day...

[jrbartlett]

You are aware that your Buick is an equally fine car as a same-year Packard Super 8 in terms of drivability and speed? I say that as a 1929 Super 8 roadster owner.  

[Guest SaddleRider]

Hi Mr Bartlett:

 

Your post has me curious - very curious !.   Can you tell us more about your '29 Packard  "Super 8" ?     Do you know who did the engine  conversion and when ?

 

(for those who do not know,  the Packard Super Eight motor was introduced for 1932 production - the improvement in performance over previous "big eight" Packard motors was pretty dramatic, (  even tho the basic engine displacement of the "big 8" stayed at 384 cu in. )     so a number of earlier Packards were converted down thru the years.)

 

Packard  in that era actually encouraged "up-dating" its earlier products, as can be seen in their literature.    The Super Eight  technical advantages ( again introduced for 1932 production & continued thru 1936)   over the previous "big 8" Packards included a more advanced higher compression cyl. head,  dual ignition, "modern" style fuel pump,  much improved DOWNdraft carbueration, much less restrictive both intake and exhaust systems.   Entirely different cylinder block.     And much faster easier shifting with the synchro. transmission.).  Fortunately for the owners of Packards of 1931 and earlier "big 8"  production, the exterior dimensions of the lower crank-case were the same,  so the conversion was a no-brainer!

 

Let me assure you I agree that Buicks of that era were fantastic cars - have "some" experience with them.    I certainly feel it accurate to say the same thing about Buick products that I do about Packards - you got your money's worth, in that you got an honest car for the dollar,  at least equal to other cars of its respective price range, and in some ways superior.

 

Its been too many years since I've worked on Buicks of  "31Buick".s era.    So I have no idea which series that lovely car is.  However, I have to note that like Packard, Buick offered "more car" if you were willing to spend more money.  Some Buicks of that era had only about a 240 cu. in motor,  the more expensive ones had around 344 cu. in. under the hood.  BIG difference in performance.

 

So if we are comparing a bone stock "small eight" Packard (320 CU. in)  with a "big" Buick of 344 cu. in,  I would certainly agree the Buick would offer at least equal, if not superior performance.

 

However,  you indicate your '29 Packard is now  a Super Eight  (again, there was no Super Eight in 1929 (OR 1930 OR 1931).  Packard  in 1929 Packard offered its "Eight"  the 320 cu. in motor that replaced its earlier six cyl. model) as its lowest price car,  with the "big 8" known as the Deluxe Eight or the Custom Eight  (that motor dated back to 1924 and yes...its basic lower end crankcase casting evolved into the Super Eight for 1932-1936 production).     I must say that if properly set up so that it resembles its performance when new,  a  "Super Eight" equipped 1929 Packard should run circles around a 1931 Buick.  So if that is the case,  I have to disagree, and suggest there is something VERY wrong with that converted motor!

 

Bottom line - I don't think it is fair to compare cars of different eras and/or price classes with each other.   Heck,  my 2015 Toyota will run circles around a Dusie SJ ! (at least up to..oh..say...100 mph..? )

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by SaddleRider
typo errors (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

On 1/10/2017 at 4:26 PM, jrbartlett said:

You are aware that your Buick is an equally fine car as a same-year Packard Super 8 in terms of drivability and speed? I say that as a 1929 Super 8 roadster owner.  

 

Jim. I'm pretty sure I understand correctly that your car has its original engine, and that you meant the generic super 8 nomenclature commonly used. Your car, a Model 640, is a great car.

 

I agree that the Buick roadster is no slouch. We'll be featuring a 1931 Buick 90 Series roadster in the Antique Automobile magazine sometime next year. However, as SaddleRider stated above, Series for Series Buick against Packard, the Packard is going to win on all levels. In fact, the Buick roadster with a body built by Stewart (all series roadsters and phaetons were built by Stewart), is not even up to the standard of Fisher, which was a second-tier body builder for Cadillac. Still, a hell of a car and no reason to be Green with envy for a Packard. Based on the color of your car, I'm assuming that your car is a Series 90 as well. I lust for your car, and hope to one day to be able to afford a 90 Series roadster. I've got a 1940 Super 8 180 touring sedan with factory air. I'll trade you even up.

[31Buickroadster]

Dear West,

I read with interest that you are featuring a 1931 Series 90 Roadster next year. Mine is one of 5 known 8-94 Series 90 Roadsters, acquired on a farm in Fredonia Wisconsin, and formerly owned by longtime AACA member Red Smith. I am very proud of the car, and although I covet Packard, am well satisfied with this beauty. She's not 100%, but a good 90%. Plan on bringing the car to the Buick National Convention in Brookfield WI this summer. By the way, first year for the straight 8, massive 330 CI with plenty of power, don't intend to race for pinks against any Packard soon though! Let me know if you need some fodder for the article!

[West Peterson]

There are about 8-10 known Series 90 roadsters from 1931. The car we are featuring this

year I believe will also be at the Buick Club nationals in Wisconsin. I may be there as well, so would love to meet you. And please, add me to the list of wanting buyers should you ever want to sell your car.

[Guest SaddleRider]

23 hours ago, 31Buickroadster said:

    . . . .  I  don't intend to race for pinks against any Packard..

 

Hey - don't under-estimate that Series 90 Buick of yours !  

 

You should be able to "blow the doors" off a Packard Eight of that year ( the 320 cu. in "smaller" Packard,).

 

Given your engine's  cyl. head's   over-head valve design,  bet you could come close to staying with a Deluxe or Custom Eight Packard of that year (larger displacement than yours,  but not by THAT much - your "90" is about 340 cu. in -vs- the Packard Deluxe Eight or Custom Eight about 384 cu in). 

 

I've never actually participated or even seen a race between a  '31 Packard of ANY series and a '31 Buick of any series, but I've always been impressed with the potentially greater efficiency of the Buick's over-head valve system.

 

As West points out,  folks like to throw words around - so we don't know if the guy with the '29 has a stock Packard, and if so, what series.  Could be the "Eight" of 320 cu. in., or a Delux or a Custom eight of 384 cu in.  One thing for sure - if it is "stock" it cannot possibly have a Packard Super Eight under the hood.

 

All we do know is that the term "Super Eight" sounds good.  Free country - who would deny someone the right to say what they wish if that is what makes them happy with their cars !

 

Packard used the term "Super Eight"  when they introduced the VERY different 1932  "big eights"  , because it certainly was "super" compared to their previous year "big eights" production.  -  I don't suggest you try and race one of those ! 

 

At the moment,   I cant recall exactly when Buick went to the more efficient and more practical "down" draft carbs and mechanical fuel pumps.  Presumably at the same time the rest of the industry did...well...most of it... as a side-note...those beautiful-looking over-head valve Cad. V-12's and V-16's  for years  afterward.     Yours is no doubt an the older UP draft carb. with "vacuum tank" fuel supply (just like the Packard and other makes of the same year).

 

Bottom line - as I suggested earlier - not sure it is fair, or even makes sense historically to directly compare entirely different eras of auto technology.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by SaddleRider
should learn to type better...! (see edit history)

[jrbartlett]

Well, at the risk of wasting more time on trivial debate, I'll wade deeper in. I have a 1929 Packard Custom 8 Runabout, 384 cubic inch engine, so I must sincerely apologize for calling it a "Super 8," even if that's what most of the hobby calls the bigger Packards of even this era, as opposed to what is called the "Standard 8." 

 

There's one of the big thick Packard hardback history books (dark blue cover, don't remember the name) which talks about the fact that the big Buicks would outrun the Packard Super/Custom 8, and that this was highly embarrassing to Packard management. So much so that it was one of the factors behind creation of the V-12 (yes, I know, here goes another big debate on the multi-cylinder war). Read it for yourself.

 

In the mid-1960s, I saw our '29 Custom 8 club sedan outrun by a '31 Buck Model 90 sedan. Our car had a 4:38 rear end ratio, I don't know about the Buick. Both cars had freshly rebuilt engines. It was a race down a level freeway egged on by my father. 

 

On a recent Glidden Tour, while driving my '29 Custom 8 roadster with a good engine, and 4.07 rear end ratio, I was cruising up a long climb on a freeway when a '31 Model 90 Buick appeared in my rear view mirror. I decided to see if I could stay ahead of him. I couldn't. He drew even and pulled away -- faster both uphill and then on the flat.

 

As for my car, on a tour here in Texas a few years ago I pulled onto a freeway and found myself in a nest of about 20 trucks all running 70-75. I had no choice but to run their speed for a while until the traffic sorted itself out. I easily did so, and clearly could have gone faster, but didn't want to risk the babbit rod bearings. My car had less than 41,000 miles on it when I bought it freshly restored, which included a ring and valve job during restoration. So I have no reason to believe I have a weak engine. Further, I find the quality of Packard construction to be superb compared to that of my other cars (see list below).

 

OK, you guys enjoy.

   

Edited January 16, 2017 by jrbartlett (see edit history)

[tigersdad]

James -

 

Glad you made this point as I did not want to jump in earlier in regards to Buick vs Packard.  I currently have a 1932 Buick 8-86 Victoria Travelers Coupe and a 1934 Packard 1100 Sedan.  Both completely restored.  Both completely different. I agree with you on all points.  Though the Buick does have the power, the Packard construction is superb and definitely surpasses the quality of other cars I have and have owned.  That goes for my 1931 Cadillac, too, though the engine on that car would run in 100 degree heat without a hiccup!

 

Jay

Novato, CA

Edited January 17, 2017 by tigersdad (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

19 hours ago, jrbartlett said:

On a recent Glidden Tour, while driving my '29 Custom 8 roadster with a good engine, and 4.07 rear end ratio, I was cruising up a long climb on a freeway when a '31 Model 90 Buick appeared in my rear view mirror. I decided to see if I could stay ahead of him. I couldn't. He drew even and pulled away -- faster both uphill and then on the flat.

   

 

That sounds like Roger Fields. :-) If anyone's Buick is running in top order, it is his.

[West Peterson]

14 hours ago, tigersdad said:

 

 

Now that is one of the cars on my bucket list!!

[tigersdad]

Thanks, West-

 

That's an honor coming from you!  The car just jumped in value and provenance!  

 

Jay

Novato, CA

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

Now that is one of the cars on my bucket list!!

 

Agreed. That looks great!

[West Peterson]

21 hours ago, tigersdad said:

Thanks, West-

 

That's an honor coming from you!  The car just jumped in value and provenance!  

 

Jay

Novato, CA

 

Well, I guess that worked against me.

One day I will own a 1931-32 Buick. In order to afford one, I guess I'll have to refrain from revealing my bucket list.

[tigersdad]

West -

 

Too funny!  I got a good laugh out of that one!  I'm still laughing.  The Forum is always a fun and informative place to go on rainy days like today, tomorrow and into next week according to the stormy outlook for CA.  From drought to floods, no happy median out here!  Always interesting topics to look forward to reading!

 

Jay

Novato, CA  (just over the Golden Gate Bridge)

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:44 PM, jrbartlett said:

Well, at the risk of wasting more time on trivial debate, I'll wade deeper in. I have a 1929 Packard Custom 8 Runabout, 384 cubic inch engine, so I must sincerely apologize for calling it a "Super 8," even if that's what most of the hobby calls the bigger Packards of even this era, as opposed to what is called the "Standard 8." 

 

There's one of the big thick Packard hardback history books (dark blue cover, don't remember the name) which talks about the fact that the big Buicks would outrun the Packard Super/Custom 8, and that this was highly embarrassing to Packard management. So much so that it was one of the factors behind creation of the V-12 (yes, I know, here goes another big debate on the multi-cylinder war). Read it for yourself.

 

In the mid-1960s, I saw our '29 Custom 8 club sedan outrun by a '31 Buck Model 90 sedan. Our car had a 4:38 rear end ratio, I don't know about the Buick. Both cars had freshly rebuilt engines. It was a race down a level freeway egged on by my father. 

 

On a recent Glidden Tour, while driving my '29 Custom 8 roadster with a good engine, and 4.07 rear end ratio, I was cruising up a long climb on a freeway when a '31 Model 90 Buick appeared in my rear view mirror. I decided to see if I could stay ahead of him. I couldn't. He drew even and pulled away -- faster both uphill and then on the flat.

 

As for my car, on a tour here in Texas a few years ago I pulled onto a freeway and found myself in a nest of about 20 trucks all running 70-75. I had no choice but to run their speed for a while until the traffic sorted itself out. I easily did so, and clearly could have gone faster, but didn't want to risk the babbit rod bearings. My car had less than 41,000 miles on it when I bought it freshly restored, which included a ring and valve job during restoration. So I have no reason to believe I have a weak engine. Further, I find the quality of Packard construction to be superb compared to that of my other cars (see list below).

 

OK, you guys enjoy.

   

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:44 PM, jrbartlett said:

 trivial debate, I'll wade deeper in. I have a 1929 Packard Custom 8 Runabout, 384 cubic inch engine, so I must sincerely apologize for calling it a "Super 8,"
 

 

Shame on you "Mister jr"....."trivial debate" ...eh... this is serious stuff...to show you how serious I think this is.....well...I AM REPORTING YOU FOR FALSE ADVERTISING....let's see...who should I report you to...?... ah..i know...soon as I finish this....let me see...do I have the phone number for the PACKARD MOTOR CAR COMPANY..?  Hmmm....I do...but no answer...ah...I will write them.... I have the address.......1580 East Grand Ave, Detroit 32,  Mich.......

 

Seriously, thanks for your post - you got me curious...how did you arrange for a final-drive ratio that numerically lo.....4.09, eh....no question that makes for more relaxed driving on todays roads given todays drivers ! 

 

Did you know that some of the Speedsters of your era had a factory ratio of  3.23 ?  Funny story about that - so many owners complained that the cars wouldn't start in high gear from a dead stop,  that Packard recalled em, the dealers had to re-fit them with the standard much lower gear ratios.  My suspicion is that was what Packard used in a promotional high speed run with a Twin Six in 1932........ " Packard beats a golf ball"....doing over 120 mph.   ? ? ?

 

Yes, as West and you point out, some folks do refer to all the 384 cu. in.  motors as "Super Eights".    But if we are going to be historical purists,  of course that is nonsense.  If the term Packard Super Eight appeared anywhere in Packard paper-work prior to the introduction of 1932 model-year production, I am not aware of it.  Wouldn't make sense.

 

Not having a parts book handy for the years 1929 to 1932,  I cannot state with certainty how different the "REAL" Super Eight motor  ( again, introduced for 1932 production) is from the earlier "big eight" Packards  in terms of parts interchangeability.

 

In years past, I did participate in "swapping out"    a "blown"  earlier  "big" Packards with '32 and later Super Eights;  never bothered to see if we could drop the cyl. block, manifolds, carbueration, etc.  from the "Super" onto the earlier crankcase - no reason to.   Obviously, it was the "lower end" that failed,  and an engine swap was a cheap and quick way of saving that was otherwise a nice low-mileage car.  ( yes...I wasn't the only "squirrel" in those days who abused big Packards......!  We wanted the whole package - obviously, we would TRY and find a '35 - '36 to take advantage of the superior connecting rod bearing arrangement.   We just would plug the whole thing ( engine and transmission) into the earlier car with a little drive-shaft work and bingo...much faster car,  far better at handling the road speeds of the 1950's..!

 

When I was a kid in high school I had a '34 Packard Super Eight in a relatively light body ( 4 dr. sedan model 1103)  that was pretty quick "off-the-line"  .  Definitely "blew the doors off" a number of various GM products of that era .  But I do not, as I noted above, ever tangled with the "big" (meaning approx. 340 cu in)  Buicks.   Your description of having one of those overtake you does not surprise me - again, given my admiration for the somewhat more efficient cylinder head design.

[Guest SaddleRider]

Ha - I was just proven wrong  - well PARTIALLY wrong - for you "trivia buffs"  here's the deal.   At the START of 1932 production, Packard still called its "big" eight the DELUX EIGHT in its literature.    I'd forgotten that - been too many years.   At some point during '32 production,  all kinds of confusion as Packard introduced mid-production changes.  Yes, I've seen '32 Packards  with SUPER EIGHT hub-caps - or at least cars sold and licensed during 1932.  But to be technically correct,  wasn't till the '33 production began in late '32 that we know for sure they were called SUPER EIGHTS. 

 

As a side-note totally irrelevant to what started this "thread"........This confusion - mid production changes in 1932.... - also occurred in the "Twin Six" line - who knows for sure when Packard realized the goofy exhaust manifold design at the start of production was a mistake,  and went to the type introduced later in that year,  and remained standard to the end of production in June 1939 ?

[Owen_Dyneto]

While you're in the mood to acknowledge errors, the high speed rear axle ratio for the 734 speedsters was 3.31, not 3.23 as you stated.  Not being picky, I just hate to see misinformation stand uncorrected.