Engine Troubles on 26 sedan

[Mpgp1999]

Got the engine running it backfired and ajusted the rotor until it ran smoothly. Then had the engine idle for 20 min ans the engine was a max of 220 degerees by the exhaust manifold and 180 by the caurberattor. Not bad.

 

Then under almost no load the engine started to die and get quiet and then stopped dead in its tracks. I heard a terrible noise. The timing chain came loose and was stuck in the timing gear (the terrible noise) the starter is freely spinning. When using the crank the flywheel moves but the fan does not. It also takes little effort to turn over when using the crank. How could the timing chain come off at low RPM? Chain appears to not be broken.

[30dodge35]

Possible it worn, ?

[MikeC5]

The chain has a master link (removable) that might not have been secured properly or chain was too loose.  Chain tension is adjusted by the starter-generator position (there is a procedure in the Mechanics Manual).

[TonyAus]

Regardless of how the starer chain came loose it sounds as if in its travels the chain has torn the teeth off your timing gear.  Hence, no drive to the cam and fan/water pump/distributor.  Next step is to support the front of the motor, pull the front mount and remove the cast iron timing cover. All should be revealed then.

 

Bon chance

 

Tony

[30dodge35]

Matt, there is a good possibility, starter was not locked down , you need to go back to basic on timing, checking chain and retiming , and adjusting tension,. Major work! Wish you were near me down here , good luck, 

[robert b]

So what motor are we talking about here, a starter generator motor that has timing gears or the 128 motor that has a morse chain that runs the camshaft and generator ?

[MikeC5]

I was thinking if he could see the chain he had the older motor where the small segment of chain cover is easily removed.  I'm also thinking a freely spinning starter is more likely to result from a broken/loose starter chain.  A flywheel driven starter will crank faster with valves stuck open but I wouldn't describe it a freely spinning...  It the fan not belt driven with either motor?

[Mpgp1999]

After taking the radiator off and the nose of the engine the chain is shattered and all up in the oil pan and the fiber timing gear is missing teeth

[Mpgp1999]

[MikeC5]

Myers Dodge has new timing gear and chain.  I would recommend pulling the oil pan and cleaning it out too.

[Mpgp1999]

[Mpgp1999]

Turns out the over heating was caused by the severely stripped water pump shaft and impeller I am replacing them now.

[Mpgp1999]

Now the car is back it is running extremely quiet but is severally lacking power max 30 mph downhill engine is overheating due to excessive stress. Though cylinder 1 has low compression that shouldn't mean I can't go into 3rd gear.

[Mpgp1999]

I can't make it up any hill in 2nd

[MikeC5]

Did you install new timing gear?  My first guess, assuming the cooling system is working properly, is that timing is retarded from where it should be.  How did you set static timing?

[Mpgp1999]

I'm not sure my local mechanic did it however he told me he would mark it and put in the new gear and it wouldn't start he adjusted the camshaft timing then valve then ignition and it wouldn't start he then took it apart and tried to adjust it until it finally started 

[Grimy]

It COULD be that the *ignition* timing adjustment made while you had a slipping chain and/or partially-stripped timing gear is no longer correct for the new gear and chain--so I'd start the *ignition* timing procedure again from scratch with #1 cylinder at TDC, and point gap correctly set.  This assumes that the new gear and chain have been correctly installed to provide the correct *valve* timing.

 

From your description, it seems to me that your IGNITION timing is severely retarded.

 

Hang in there!  You're close to getting this straightened out! I admire your perseverance.

[nearchoclatetown]

Matthew, do you remember our conversation from about two years ago when I said  FIX one item completely, then move to another. Make sure the first item is working correctly before moving on to the next? You now have had someone install a new cam gear, it MIGHT be out of time. That will cause the problem you describe. You need to verify that it is on the marks, that the cam is timed correctly. THEN worry about the ignition timing. Did you ever install the condenser from Budd Lake? An easy way to check on cam timing is with a vacuum gauge. Find a chart online that explains the readings from a vacuum gauge and FOLLOW the instructions. An engine can be off several teeth and still run but not correctly.You need to start at the beginning and fix things correctly. We can't see or hear what your car is doing so anything suggested here is just a guess. Keep at it, you will figure it out.

[Mpgp1999]

I did not install a condensor in fact I gave it back to tom and cindy. Tomorrow Alexander Schimdt will be comming over to help me with this problem.

[hchris]

6 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

You now have had someone install a new cam gear, it MIGHT be out of time. That will cause the problem you describe. You need to verify that it is on the marks, that the cam is timed correctly. THEN worry about the ignition timing. Did you ever install the condenser from Budd Lake? An easy way to check on cam timing is with a vacuum gauge. Find a chart online that explains the readings from a vacuum gauge and FOLLOW the instructions.

 

Given the info you have put up, the above would be high on my list of causes and before you pull anything apart do the vac guage thing, you should have about 18" steady vac reading at idle. If you are not familiar with this method of diagnosis do as suggested, find an analysis chart online, it is a very easy way to verify timing (both cam and ignition).

[Mpgp1999]

2 hours ago, hchris said:

 

Given the info you have put up, the above would be high on my list of causes and before you pull anything apart do the vac guage thing, you should have about 18" steady vac reading at idle. If you are not familiar with this method of diagnosis do as suggested, find an analysis chart online, it is a very easy way to verify timing (both cam and ignition).

Are the numbers the same for my engine?since it is an older engine can I use a modern gauge?

[Grimy]

Yes, numbers will be the same.  Any good quality vacuum gauge will do just fine.  Plug it into a vacuum source.  The tee on top of your vacuum tank which feeds the windshield wipers will work--disconnect the vac line to the wipers and plug in the vac gauge.  If there is no chart with your vac gauge (should be), Google "vacuum gauge chart" and take your pick!

[nearchoclatetown]

Matt, almost any gas engine should hold 18 steady as was stated. Find the chart and study it. There are certain characteristics of a sick engine that a vacuum gauge will tell you. I diagnosed a friend's engine that had run bad for 20 years after a rebuild. It was three teeth off on the cam. Report back after using the gauge and BEFORE you change anything on the engine. 

[30dodge35]

http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

 

here you go Matt

[Mpgp1999]

1 hour ago, 30dodge35 said:

http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

 

here you go Matt

thank you

[Mpgp1999]

I will test the vacuum and fix my passenger window( new glass arrived) tomorrow> I will let everyone know what it says.

[hchris]

7 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

Are the numbers the same for my engine?since it is an older engine can I use a modern gauge?

 

As others have stated the vac readings are pretty much standard for all engines; if you were to modify things like the cam then readings would be different, we assume not so in your case.

 

Given that you have had timing gear / chain issues I would expect that the vac readings would be steady but lower than the ideal 18".

 

It is important that you connect your vac guage line to a vacuum source which is unrestricted and below the throttle in terms of air flow, ideally this would be into a blanking plug on the intake manifold, if you are using some other source make sure there are no restrictors at the connect point, and yes do report back on your findings before you rip into it.

[Mpgp1999]

The vacuuum gauge moves rapidly from 0-30

[Mpgp1999]

also when rapidly increasing the throtle the gauge shows 0 in of hg 

[hwellens]

Is the vacuum 30 and steady at idle?

[Mpgp1999]

The gauge needle is constantly moving at a rapid pace 

[nearchoclatetown]

Matt, go back to the chart, READ EVERY word. It gives you specific instructions what to look for and how to do it. Start at the top, engine should be warm. Don't just hook it up, rev the engine and that's it. If the needle is constantly moving tell us if that is at an idle or when you hold it at speed. It will naturally move when you rev it. The chart explains what to do, but you must follow it. How far is it moving, from what number to what number. We are not there, can't see the gauge or what you are doing. 

[ArticiferTom]

Some info from my gage set  .

Press - Vacu test3.pdf

Press - Vacu test4.pdf

Press - Vacu test5.pdf

[hchris]

10 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

The gauge needle is constantly moving at a rapid pace 

 

Q1. Is this happening at steady idle speed ?

Q2. What is the magnitude of fluctuation, what are the numbers its fluctuating between ?

Q3. What are the indications at a steady high engine speed ? 

[Mpgp1999]

5 hours ago, hchris said:

 

Q1. Is this happening at steady idle speed ?

Q2. What is the magnitude of fluctuation, what are the numbers its fluctuating between ?

Q3. What are the indications at a steady high engine speed ? 

at idle the gauge moves rapidly. By putting my finger over the hole I can feel air being sucked in and maybe blownout.

The needls appears to be moving from 30 in of hg to 1 psi. my gauge is also a pressure gauge.(it mesures vacuum and pressure)

It takes a second to accelerate but when it does the gauge reads near 0 vacuum.

[nearchoclatetown]

Matt, first of all the engine will not run at 0 vacuum. The engine is nothing but an air pump. It pulls air in, adds gas to it and spark and pushes it out. Where do you have the gauge hooked up? Is the connection tight, no leaks? Is the engine running on all four cylinders?  Who was the " local garage" that installed the cam gear? Tators?

Edited December 27, 2016 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[hchris]

8 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

By putting my finger over the hole I can feel air being sucked in and maybe blownout.

 

I don't understand where this hole is ?

 

And yes we are a little confused at your references of psi and vacuum, it would be easier if you just tell us the vacuum numbers.

 

Also I am curious as to where you have the guage hooked up.

[30dodge35]

Some of new gages read both, inch of hug vacumn or psi, centered on 0

[Grimy]

6 minutes ago, 30dodge35 said:

Some of new gages read both, inch of hug vacumn or psi, centered on 0

A combination vacuum and fuel pump gauge (normal combination) reads in psi for the fuel PRESSURE side, and in inches of mercury (Hg) for the vacuum side--all on the same dial.  Since you want to measure vacuum, your readings should be described as inches of mercury or in-Hg or just "inches."

[Spinneyhill]

It sounds to me, a rank greenhorn on this technique, that it is gaining and losing vacuum in a pulsing fashion. The 1 psi pressure sounds like a needle overrun coz of the speed of movement. I think there is something in the document about it, though perhaps with a lesser range of needle movement.