jeff_a

Elcar

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On 12/7/2016 at 4:52 AM, K8096 said:

The 322 CI SOHC Stutz of 1929-1933 was advertised at 113 hp.   I think it was a little more that that though.    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?   I know guys who rebuild Stutz engines now who up the compression ratio to 7:1 and get a lot more hp out of them, and that's with stock carburation.  That probably includes boring it .0030 over too.            

It's interesting to discuss the horsepower question of the cars back then. I wasn't around and haven't owned an Elcar so don't know the veracity of the h.p. claims. The one my grandfather owned had a Lycoming motor. There were three Continentals at the time that were similar, a 12K , 13K, and 14K, all 322 cu. in. eights.

 

  • The 14 1930 Jordan Model Zs built had 114 hp using the 12K engine, according to "Z" Roadster owner Jim Stecker.
  • Du Pont is listed in The Standard Catalog as having 125 hp 1929-1932 in their Model G with the 12K engine.
  • Elcar Models 130 and 140......140 hp with the 12K engine was claimed for 1930 and 1931. We all would put more credence in this if, say, some Model 130s were still around.* Elcar did have some racing experience, fielding cars in both the 1926 and 1927 Indy 500, according to the Elcar and Pratt book. The Continental 12K not being in production...they used a Miller engine.
  • The high-end model for Peerless in 1929 was the 8-125, using the 12K engine with 114 hp.
  • Peerless stated 115 hp(Master 8) and 120 hp(custom 8), using the 13K engine in 1930-1932.
  • Graham-Paige had their Model 827, 835, and 837 listed as 120 hp cars in 1929-1930 with the 14K engine. I had no idea that you could get a Le Baron Town Car with the Continental 322 for $4,180 from them, or that someone took an 835 out on the track at Brooklands and set a Class B endurance record for 200 miles, 77.77 mph, in a sedan(complete w/ sidemounts, bumpers, headlights), until I looked at The Graham Legacy by Michael Keller. Keller says the Graham-Paige had one of the larger powerplants in 1928-1929, but that it was exceeded by:

          a) Marmon "E-75" 339.7 cu. in.

          b  )Cadillac 341

          c) Lincoln 384

          d) Studebaker "Commander" 384

          e) Packard "4-43" 384.8

           f) Stearns-Knight 385

           g) Pierce-Arrow "36" 414.7

           h) Cunningham 441.7

           i) Rolls-Royce of America "PI" 468

           j) Locomobile "90" 371.5, "48" 524

          k) McFarlan 572.5

 

 

The advertised horsepower for the Continental 12K, 13K, and 14K engines was 114 to 140 in various applications. Today I found a picture of one of 'em advertising 140, and thought I would add it.spaceout.gif I believe the Du Ponts used the Continental 12K engine.

 

I was able to post a photo of an ad for a 1930 Du Pont Model G, and the text "Du Pont Victoria Cabriolet -- Straight Eight Motor -- 140 Horse Power" 

 

Image result for 1930 duPont cabriolet ad

 

 

spaceout.gifspaceout.gif

* It would be interesting to know what model that 1930 Elcar in Jutland, Denmark is, at the Gjern Auto Museum.

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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Jeff,  all advertised HP numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.  Even the mighty Model J was said to really be around 250 and not 275 (which was still 100 more than everybody else).   The only thing I can say about DuPont is that they warmed their engines over so maybe they were getting a bit more than someone else using a Continental.

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Yes, I know HP claims then and now are questionable....but I wanted this up because of the illustration. The car is quite swanky.

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We should do a DuPoint thread.  There is no such thing as a bad looking Waterhouse.   If you don't have it, I suggest getting Stan Smith's book on DuPont.  Excellent.

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140 is a fantasy, 322 cid with their manifold and carburation just isn't gonna happen. 110 would be on the high side in my humble opinion. Having worked on and driven several of them, I found them lackluster and wanting. They are often in very interesting and rare cars. The DuPont speedster I played with years ago really floated my boat, until I drove it. Ed

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Ed,  your issue is too much time driving stuff with over 400 cubes.  I have a feeling that all the "big" 1928-1931 eights, save Duesenberg fall in to the category of "lackluster".   But at the time,  50mph was moving fast.

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On 12/7/2016 at 4:41 PM, v.milke said:

But it used to be two tone blue... and white before that!

 

If I recall the story correctly, but you can surely elaborate, the guy that got the plane from your grandfather in the trade crashed it that same day or within a few days... luckily your Grandfather's car is still around and as you can see it is quite a car!

 

 

1926 Elcar 8-81 Landau Roadster, 1, Dave Sanders.JPG

 

 

I finally found a photo of my grandfather's Travel Air biplane he traded for the Elcar: (note the engine running)

Capture.JPG

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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On 1/20/2017 at 10:46 PM, edinmass said:

140 is a fantasy, 322 cid with their manifold and carburation just isn't gonna happen. 110 would be on the high side in my humble opinion. Having worked on and driven several of them, I found them lackluster and wanting. They are often in very interesting and rare cars. The DuPont speedster I played with years ago really floated my boat, until I drove it. Ed

Ok, I admit that I tend to try and wring out a few extra horsepower where ever possible. Nothing crazy, but minor selective adjustments can make a big difference in performance and drivability. On some cars, major adjustments can be done without effecting visual changes, that can add up to twenty percent or more power. I admit to doing this on several occasions. Every time I drive one of the "super mod" engines, it brings a smile to my face. Some motors don't offer much way of improvements due to design restraints. Most importantly, remember to drive it like you stole it!

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Elcar in those years used a SWAN carburetor which could be adjusted from the dashboard, even while driving. You could make the mixture richer as needed or as lean as possible to save on fuel... interesting, isn't it ?

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On 8.12.2016 at 0:54 AM, v.milke said:

1927 Elcar 6-70, Touring car in Reikjavik, Iceland

 

 

1927 Elcar 6-70  Touring car in Reikjavik, Iceland.jpg

This car is in a museum 154 km from Reykjavík,(Byggðasafnið í Skógum)in 1969 when i was 16 years old i help my father to paint this car for a car show for the city of Reykjavík,i just use a brush to paint the car,and still today has the same paint,my brother got the car running in 1969,But the car has not be driven since.the Iceland National museum is the owner of the car.I have pictures of it that was taken in the old days.Thank you Guðmundur Bjarnason Iceland.

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Wow.   I need to visit Iceland one of these days.  How many "old" cars do you have?   And how long is "pleasant" driving season?  Circumventing Iceland seem like it might be a great Car Caravan.

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New here. I have inherited a very rare 1927 ElCar model 8-82 Brougham 5-passenger sedan. 99% complete. Arizona car garage kept since 1975. Engine and Carb. was professionally rebuilt 1995. Starter rewound last year.Car was featured in William S. Locke's book and so much more history behind this car. Hoping to learn more from this group. 

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Congratulations! A great and very original car! Glad you have the mechanics done already... and the radiator and headlights, apparently.

 

I hope you get to it and do the bodywork and rest of the work. There are only a handful of Elcars out there... and it would be great to have one more among them.

 

If you don't have William S. Locke's book, make sure you get it. You will find tons of information there.

 

Victor

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Congratulations 1927, and welcome to the AACA Forums. This thread is the de facto Elcar Forum here. My grandfather had a 1926 8-81.

 

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On 1/20/2017 at 10:22 PM, alsancle said:

We should do a DuPoint thread.  There is no such thing as a bad looking Waterhouse.   If you don't have it, I suggest getting Stan Smith's book on DuPont.  Excellent.

I have a rare of the rare photo (it may have been published when I gave it to Stan Smith for researching for CCCA publication and I told him fine for his book) and Stan was able to ID car (and it still exists today) - I would be pleased to [post if you did a DuPont thread.

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This photo of a DuPont roadster (directly behind the Bugatti) was taken at an early meet in the Boston area. The older gentleman, standing in front of the car, is identified as Mr. DuPont.

 

5937fcea8afbb_BugtattiDuPont.thumb.jpg.2daf5415ff22f7cb455a89db169b4275.jpg

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 4:52 AM, K8096 said:

    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?  ....

 

I must disagree.   Well, to this extent.  You are correct in implying the octane of motor gasoline was MUCH lower in 1930 than it is today.   But you are incorrect in thinking using higher octane fuel in a  "bone-stock"  1930's era car would make ANY difference.

 

Let me explain what "OCTANE" means.  Reduced to its essentials, it is a way of discussing the FLAME SPEED of the fuel - how fast it burns.    The measurement of octane has NOTHING to do with the power of the fuel - higher octane fuel has NO more energy than lower octane fuel.   The big advantage of the higher octane fuel is that it permits higher compression.   That permits more of the SAME overall energy to be released as MECHANICAL energy, with less wasted as heat.

 

The higher the octane...the slower the fuel burn takes place in time...and thus more energy can be delivered to the top of the piston without the sudden & damaging "knock" of a too fast "burn off".

 

The earlier the fuel, the faster the flame-speed,   so that only lower compression motors could use it without damaging "knock". 

 

The higher the compression,  & the higher the octane fuel, the slower the flame speed, and thus the longer in time the "burn" can be converted into mechanical energy. 

 

Ever heard an engine "knock" ?   That's the sound of the lower octane fuel "going off" too fast. 

 

It is common amongst motor restorers of older vehicles to raise the compression ratio.  Why not ?  Easier on the motor;  helps it take advantage of the greater power of modern slower burning gasoline, with a smoother power flow on those old-style bearings.   So IF you are referring to 1930's cars that have had their compression ratios raised - yes...then..most certainly..use the higher octane fuel to get more power.

Edited by SaddleRider
i really ought to learn how to spieel (see edit history)

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I became interested in the Elcar after reading the Hemmings article mentioned earlier in this thread. Of course, the real trick is finding one of these for sale. I am interested in finding one, even an unrestored project. I'm in New Jersey. These are such fascinating and (sadly) largely ignored pieces of automobile history. 

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I hope you find one, Cars of Chaos {good name for wheels from the Roaring Twenties}. 5 or 10 years ago, I saw a couple of rickity early Elcars come up for sale in farm auctions(ND, MN). I´ll tell you if I see another.

 

No matter what car show you went to with your Elcar, nobody would ever stick you in `` the Elcar row´´.  Not just Rare, Unique.

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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