'28 Chrysler M Engine re-build

[maok]

@herm111  What you are seeing is a pic of one rod with oil smeared on the bearing, so it looks abit rough and dirty. I havent had much of a chance to inspect all of them as yet. I will clean them up and take a better pic for all to analyse and comment but this will have to wait after xmas. This my first poured babbits so I am very green on this stuff, the engine machinist said they were ok.

[Vintageben]

Yeah hopefully they are not as Herm observes as I many years ago went down the expensive track mind you when I pulled that engine they looked truly awful. Anyway gives me something to think about while I lay here in hospital. So pleased that there is this site👍🏿😁

[maok]

Here is a couple of pics I took with a quick wipe of the bearing.  ??

[Vintageben]

That looks a lot better 😁

[maok]

Before;

 

With rust converter/sealer;

 

What colour should this engine be painted? The engine from the car was a teal blue but had red underneath it.

 

 

[maok]

And the Dulux rebuild.

 

[Spinneyhill]

I hope you left Santa a bit of Christmas cake and something to drink. That is a very nice delivery.

[Sasha39]

Yes, Santa delivered it to the right house where it would be lovely cared for, and by the looks of it your doing a great job in being her back to life, as a reward she will serve to well.

 

[maok]

15 minutes ago, Sasha39 said:

Yes, Santa delivered it to the right house where it would be lovely cared for, and by the looks of it your doing a great job in being her back to life, as a reward she will serve to well.

 

Thanks mate. Guess what? The blocks are slightly different. I'll post pics later.

[robert b]

They look as if there has been a stone hone in side the rod bearings , where are the machine marks from the cutting tool ? Like Herm111 I a little worried about the surface finish .

Edited December 28, 2018 by robert b (see edit history)

[maok]

I got intimate with it today and some signs of quality issue have arisen....:(

 

You can see a small hole in the 1st pic and some babbit material in the oil hole for the big end of #6 rod.

 

 

The biggest issue is the crank end gap/float. Bottom right hand corner is 0.0025", top left hand corner is 0.0015", and the other two are less than 0.0015". And the crank when spun seems to be binding, mostly likely because of this....:(

I am going have another look at it tomorrow, but I dont have my hopes up.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by maok
spelling (see edit history)

[maok]

This block and the block that came out of the car are slightly different. Can you spot the difference?

 

Luckily, slight grinding of the middle piece below will allow my alternator bracket to work.

 

 

More of the Dulux build. Date code on the cylinder head that came off the engine from the car. 3/06/28

 

 

 

[maok]

And hopefully this wont be an issue.

 

[maok]

What do you guys generally set the crank end play at? 

The bloke who did the babbitt bearings and crank grind has f'ed it up. I am at 0.002" - 0.0025 at the moment by sanding the last bearing  edge/face with 1200 grit wet&dry sand paper, and I still seem to have some binding. 

Initially when I was checking it, the crank barely turned freely one revolution, now I it will turn freely about 1 1/2 revs.

[c49er]

An average is .003" to .007" looking at many makes of engines back to 1936.

You might have more of an issue than the end thrust if you already have .002"+ end play as some car engines have that spec or less rear main end play.....the 1936 Cadillac

[maok]

Thanks mate, I was told by the machinist that 0.002" was about right for these very early engines, so much tighter than modern engines as you have suggested. I suspect the crank thrust area (on #6) or the bearing thrust face (end bearing) has not been machined well.

[Vintageben]

Ahh that’s a real bigger for you nothing worse than having to tidy up a professional stuff up. Don’t have lot of advice on how to fix but I know I have been told to keep sandpaper away from white metal bearings as the sand can get imbedded in the surface, so maybe be careful with the sandpaper. My commiserations to you hopefully you can get it sorted satisfactory 😟

[maok]

Anyone know what this hole is designed for? The old engine was gummed up with oil and grease.

 

This is the reason why you check everything before installing.

But it was only 4 of the rods...🙄                           The old rod big end oil hole, much small than the new one.

What is the best orientation of the small end of the rods? Four options I guess, all bolts facing to the front, all bolts facing to the rear, bolts alternating from 1 to 6  or bolts alternating with like cylinders, ie 1&6 etc.

Edited January 4, 2019 by maok
added pic (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I am getting "access denied" to all the images.

[maok]

7 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

I am getting "access denied" to all the images.

Fingers crossed, try again Spinney.

[viv w]

Maok,

 You paid a lot of money to have your motor done, I would take it back to the machine shop and ask them to sort out the problems you have found. Any attempt you make to correct the faults you have found, will make it difficult to argue your case. The machine shop will turn around and say YOU buggered it up.

 That small hole in your picture I think is for a locating pin/bolt or dowel for holding the distibutor in place ??

[maok]

Thanks Viv W, Im finding issues mainly with the bloke who did the babbitt bearings and line bore, who is at least 3 hour drive away.

 

The machinist has done an excellent job so far.

 

My manual has no reference to that hole. It seems to vent the valve cage area, its directly behind the inlet/exhaust manifold, no way of accessing it without removing the manifold.

[Spinneyhill]

I wondered if a bolt or something went in there (is it threaded?) to hold the manifold heat valve flap return spring.

 

Is there a picture of the engine in the instruction book? You might see the piston pin bolts there. I would expect them all to be in the same direction.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Vintageben]

Piston pin bolts tend to be all the same side and I believe it’s to do with the way the engine “throws”  or that’s what a old bloke told me here. Unfortunately  I can’t remember which way round it is but I will have a look through some  of my literature. I think that hole you referring to could just be a drain for any excess oil that works it way up to the the dissy or moisture working it way down, my 65 has the same hole 

[Vintageben]

So I just had a look at my 29 Chrysler 65 manual and it had this cross section of the engine shows pretty clear which way the rod should face this also means that the oil holes in the big ends lined up with the cam this matches what my Motors Auto repair Manual that covers from 35 to 46 says and it makes sense that the cam gets plenty of oil. Hopefully that helps 

Cheers Ben

[maok]

Maybe I should read my manual more....🙄  Thanks Ben for your time and effort.

 

 

It looks like I am working on an earlier engine design, oil filler tube is the same from my manual but Ben's pic is a 1929 65 model that is more like the one that was in my car. The oil filler tube has been relocated back for accommodate a long generator to be run off the fan belt.

Edited January 5, 2019 by maok
additional info (see edit history)

[maok]

3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I wondered if a bolt or something went in there (is it threaded?) to hold the manifold heat valve flap return spring.

 

Is there a picture of the engine in the instruction book? You might see the piston pin bolts there. I would expect them all to be in the same direction.

 

No, its not threaded. Just a simple 1/8" hole with no apparent meaning...lol

[maok]

I did a lot of fun stuff today. Clean, clean clean!!!!  

 

I am not happy with the state of the rod bolts and nuts from both engines, do you blokes know if any of the later 1934 onwards flat heads use the same rod bolts and nuts? These have a side cut to the head of the bolt with hole for a split pin at the end, and have castle nuts. Or where I can order these from?

 

When I was pulling this engine apart over two years ago I mentioned that the timing case was modified and the timing chain was not around the generator gear because an altenator (or a later model generator) was attached to the left side of the engine and ran off the fan belt, like later models in the Chrysler family. Here is a comparison of the timing chain and gears.

Left is the original that would also go around the generator gear, the right just goes around the crank gear. Gear on the right bolts up  with 3 bolts.

 

The two camshaft gears on top of each other, you can see how they are a different gear set (the top one is a smaller diameter) with a different pitch to the tooth.

 

I think I have a decision to make.

Edited January 6, 2019 by maok
additional info (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I have seen timing gears with razor sharp points because they were a different pitch to the chain. The filings must have been grinding away all through the engine for years!

[maok]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I have seen timing gears with razor sharp points because they were a different pitch to the chain. The filings must have been grinding away all through the engine for years!

 

Both look to be in good serviceable condition.

[Sasha39]

Hi moak, Sorry to hear you're having troubles with the engine, that hole in the side is nothing to worry about it's only a vent hole, although it's not numbered you can see it in the section drawing of the engine exactly where yours is.

Are you going to free wheel the generator?  looks like that motor had a newer style Cam shaft installed if it has the 3 holes to bolt onto the shaft as well as the sprocket hub screw, just like on my 65 model.

Mystery solved, that's why the generator wasn't connected. Good luck it the rest of the rebuild

[maok]

Thanks mate for confirming that the timing gear is from a series 65. Do you know if this is the same as the later Chrysler family flat heads ie. 201, 218, 230 ci engines?

 

What I am thinking is if I go for this timing gear then I will just block off the generator hole and run the alternator.

[herm111]

On 12/28/2018 at 4:03 AM, maok said:

I got intimate with it today and some signs of quality issue have arisen....:(

 

You can see a small hole in the 1st pic and some babbit material in the oil hole for the big end of #6 rod.

 

 

The biggest issue is the crank end gap/float. Bottom right hand corner is 0.0025", top left hand corner is 0.0015", and the other two are less than 0.0015". And the crank when spun seems to be binding, mostly likely because of this....:(

I am going have another look at it tomorrow, but I dont have my hopes up.

 

 

 

 

 

In the first picture, the middle hole with the babbitt, is that pluging off a squirt hole, or is the web of the rod drilled for oiling the wrist pin? If it is a squirt hole, I have never seen a squirt hole, connected to a circle groove, for constant oiling.

 

Herm.

[herm111]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:18 PM, maok said:

What do you guys generally set the crank end play at? 

The bloke who did the babbitt bearings and crank grind has f'ed it up. I am at 0.002" - 0.0025 at the moment by sanding the last bearing  edge/face with 1200 grit wet&dry sand paper, and I still seem to have some binding. 

Initially when I was checking it, the crank barely turned freely one revolution, now I it will turn freely about 1 1/2 revs.

Thrust should be, not under .003, and not over .004. We shoot for .003 to .003-50.

 

You shouldn't have had to use sand paper. Make sure you scrub the bearings when done, with warm soapy water. Your bearings should have been already done, with a smooth, reflective surface, for good oil wedge.

 

Herm.

[herm111]

On 1/4/2019 at 2:00 AM, maok said:

Anyone know what this hole is designed for? The old engine was gummed up with oil and grease.

 

This is the reason why you check everything before installing.

But it was only 4 of the rods...🙄                           The old rod big end oil hole, much small than the new one.

What is the best orientation of the small end of the rods? Four options I guess, all bolts facing to the front, all bolts facing to the rear, bolts alternating from 1 to 6  or bolts alternating with like cylinders, ie 1&6 etc.

 

 

Those squirt holes should be small. Many rebabbitters drill bigger holes, because they are special sizes, and break easy!

 

Herm

Edited January 7, 2019 by herm111 (see edit history)

[maok]

The two sets of rods I have are slightly different with the oil hole sizes, the later (not being used) has the smaller oil holes, the other I am using (early) have a cone shaped entry to the hole, the holes are between 2mm to 2.5mm in diameter. I don't know if the babbitt bloke opened up the holes or not.

 

I am envious of your bearing babbitt work...😳

[maok]

Update on the crank and bearing clearances, I took the engine block, crank and rods back to my machinist and they did their magic  and now we have end play about 0.003" -0.004" end play, no binding of the crank with the bearings, and a happy Moe. Its tricky to install these pistons with rings from the inside of the block. Lucky this was a dummy up, I over tighten the piston pin bolt to 40ft-lb, should be 25-30ft-lb, to check how high the piston sticks oout of the cylinder and confirm the short timing chain turns over without issue.

This chain and gear set seems to have a lot of slack but I have notice there is a half link that I will remove to see if it will be ok.

 

The other issuse that arised was the position of the oil filler tube on this older block, had my local engineer fabricate an attachment to the tube from the other engine. Now we can run the alternator again.

 

Slight engine mod, ported the inlet of the inlet manifold about 2 mm and took off the casting marks from the outlets. The reason for this is that Brisbane is sub-tropical and hot, I can really notice the difference from day and night driving. May or may not make a difference though.

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

On 1/14/2019 at 12:13 PM, maok said:

I can really notice the difference from day and night driving.

Volumetric efficiency changes with temperature. High temperature means lower density air (hot air expands) and hence less O₂ per litre of air. Cold air has more O₂ per litre and the engine runs better because of the improved VE. Altitude has the same effect: lower VE at higher altitude.

 

So if you improve the VE of the engine as you are, it will still have the day-night difference, with improvements in both day and night performance.

[maok]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

Volumetric efficiency changes with temperature. High temperature means lower density air (hot air expands) and hence less O₂ per litre of air. Cold air has more O₂ per litre and the engine runs better because of the improved VE. Altitude has the same effect: lower VE at higher altitude.

 

So if you improve the VE of the engine as you are, it will still have the day-night difference, with improvements in both day and night performance.

 

Yes, totally agree Spinney. I am hoping it will make enough difference to improve day time performance.

[maok]

I am back at it after a delay waiting for two broken oil rings to arrive from the supplier. These are one piece and extremely fragile, snaps so easily.

 

The felts into the rear main cap, is it suppose to be tight 'compressed' fit when torqued down, with or without some over hang?  Or a 'just' fit, with or without over hang?