maok

'28 Chrysler M Engine re-build

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Hi all, this will be my 1st flat head engine re-build so any input, advice, suggestions, jokes, sarcasm will be welcomed.

 

But first of all, I would like to give a big shout out to a top bloke, Sasha39 (Alex). He supplied the engine at a very good pay rate and bolted down to a pallet to make life very easy. I am sure he will be very interested in what this engine is like inside.

 

So, thousand THANK YOU's to Alex. 

 

Part one: The tear down.

 

Externally looks to be like any engine that has been sitting around for  who knows how long. Lots of surface rust, totally expected but looks to be superficial.

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It was 'stuck' but freed up relatively easily after removing the head and pouring some kero down the cylinders and valves.

 

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Bonus! A copper gasket in one piece, I reckon I can re-use it.

 

Apparently the previous owner who had it running could not work out why the generator was not producing electrons.

Mystery solved.

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Timing chain to the cam and crank gear only. That is an assumption so far, I wont know for sure until I pull the front timing case off.

 

Can you guess the odd one out.

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It took at least 3 hours to remove most of the head studs, still 3 that are a bit 'character building'. I feel good that I am better that Meatloaf...:)

Any suggestions on best method to remove these studs without breaking or cutting then drilling them out?

We are going to get some warm temperatures (+35c) in the next few days, so I might leave them out to get a sun tan.

 

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It looks to be about 0.020" over. The bores look to be 'okay' may get away with a light hone. Hopefully the Mopar gods will be kind to me.

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Edited by maok
spelling error (see edit history)
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G'day there Maok, 

Great to see that you have made a start on the engine and that it looks like it might be a somewhat easy rebuild for you, please keep us updated on your progress and good luck with your project.

 

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That generator explains that cut out section in the timing case cover, looks like they had another external generator mounted on the other side and run it by the fan belt and they had to shave off some of the timing case so the belt could move more freely.

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Mate, I just went outside to have another look, you are 100% correct.

I never noticed it yesterday when I was getting intimate with it.

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Head bolts: patience is your best friend. Cutting is extreme last resort.

 

Best penetrating oil for the head studs = 50-50 acetone and ATF. Apply each day for a week. Try to turn. Tighten first then undo. You can also tap them with a hammer on the end; sometimes the shock will help (not too hard!). Take care with long spanners coz you can easily screw the bolt off, leaving the bottom in the hole.

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49 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

 Tighten first then undo. You can also tap them with a hammer on the end; sometimes the shock will help (not too hard!). Take care with long spanners coz you can easily screw the bolt off, leaving the bottom in the hole.

 

Exactly how I got the others out.

 

The reason why I used the large adjustable spanners  (we call them a 'shifter' here in OZ) with my dodgy 2' extension bar is because of their depth. More surface area to hold the nut than a usual spanner.

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Years ago I knew an old mechanic who told me about an International truck engine he overhauled during WW2. At the time new cars and trucks were not available and even parts were in short supply. This particular truck had the head removed and left outside open to the weather for more than a year. He honed the cylinders and put it together with new rings on the old pistons even though the cylinders were pitted with rust. He said it ran well but burned oil for the first 1000 miles or so then settled down and ran fine with no oil burning. A few years later he did a valve job, while the head was off he noticed the rust pits were filled with black carbon and polished smooth.

 

The point is, some rust pitting is not a death sentence. If the bad areas are not big enough to snag the rings it will be ok. Think of a 2 stroke engine and the holes they have in the cylinders.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

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Totally agree. People often do re-builds like they are doing it for a F1 car.

 

This will be a relatively low budget build, pending how the pistons, block, crank and rods check out.

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16 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Head bolts: patience is your best friend. Cutting is extreme last resort.

 

Bloody Kiwi's, always jinxing us Aussie's.

 

I hope I don't lose too many points at the car show...:)

 

 There goes the budget. I shouldn't whinge, 21 out of 22 ain't too bad. There is still plenty of shank on the stud to cut more thread.

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This is what Sasha39 was referring to on the timing case;

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Edited by maok
added info (see edit history)

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Aaahhh, I see the problems. Spanner is too long. Not enough waiting for penetrating oil. Not enough patience. Sounds just like me on the job! :D

 

They are probably only about Grade 2 studs in today's parlance, so it is easy to screw them off. :angry:

 

21 out of 22 is all right, perhaps we would call it a draw? A win would be all 22 out in one piece...;)

 

Strange piece to chop off the timing case... a bush mechanic passed by there.

 

Just had a wild thought... Set up your impact driver with the right size six sided socket on your locked nut and work the driver in reverse. I bought an adapter from driver to square drive (cheap) and a six sided socket for impact (less cheap) to do the really tight oil plugs on the front axle of Triceps the Tractor. Impact drivers are better than drills for this job because the impact is on the torque. After watching a builder using one while helping me with concrete boxing I went out and bought one too. Xclnt tool. Six sided socket better for really tight nuts or bolts coz more grip on hexagon.

 

Jinx! Huh!  B)

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4 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Not enough patience. 

 

 

 

Patience told me to hurry up. So I did.

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Yep, it does feel so good......:)

 

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Thanks gents.

Hopefully Mr goodluck will be helping out with the manifold studs as well.

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Six months goes so fast in an engine tare down...:)

Finally something to work under.

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Gearbox and clutch assembly off.

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The flywheel looks like it needs to come off with the crankshaft. Any one know if there is another way?

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G'day Maok, 

 

Good to see your back on the job mate, nice work on the shed by the way, the easiest way is to take the crankshaft and flywheel out in one go, I'd pop the valves out turn it on its head and take the sump off pull the oil pump out and then take the crankshaft and flywheel out. good luck!

 

 

 

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Thanks for confirming that Sasha39. I was hoping to bolt it to an engine stand and then disassemble, but might be a bit tricky with the flywheel still attached.

Edited by maok
grammar (see edit history)

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Removed all the valves, springs, collars, and locks today. 

One damaged (#6 Ex) valve guide...:(

Used a conventional G clap style valve spring compressor with some success,

but realised it was more efficient with a 9/16 open ended spanner to lever up the spring to remove the lock from the valve.

 

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A balancing act and sludge today.

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Even though I have had a V8 block on this engine stand, I just don't trust it with this flathead engine. It is so long with the back of the block extending out to cover the flywheel.

 

Some sludge but looks okay so far.

 

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This is the reason why Sasha39 implied that you cant unbolt the flywheel and pull it off the crankshaft when in the block.

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I wonder if its still covered under warranty.

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Piston #6 & #3  :(

 

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Pulled all the pistons today to find that all the pistons have this gap. There seems to be some sort of a spring set up to hold the piston pin in place.

I couldn't get a good pic of it unfortunately.

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And where did the crankshaft seals go? Front and rear?

 

Front;

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Rear;

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Actually, there is two strips that seems to be a seal, on the rear main cap - last pic.

 

photothumb.db

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Thanks for sharing all these photos this is almost as good as tearing down the engine myself and giving me a great idea of what I might find if I end up needing to do an engine for my car. Just a few thoughts on the photos/engine, I can't see the spring set up for retaining the piston pin but it looks to me it is very similar to what my 27 Chev in that there is a bolt that clamps the little end around the pin and stops it from coming adrift. Just a note on this method when re assembling don't over tighten this bolt and check the little end for cracks, I have experienced one breaking I was very lucky the piston contained the rod and stopped it from doing serious damage. 

I'm not sure what the function of the split in the piston skirt is I'm guessing it is something to do with expansion etc I have seen the same on others but some one more knowledgable then my self might be able to tell us the true function of this is.

As for the crankshaft seals not sure on these early Chryslers as I'm still learning but I know many early engines had no crankshaft seals and relied on oil grooves correct clearances etc to keep the oil in or at least return some of it to the crankcase.

Any way just few of my thoughts, keep the photos coming this is really interesting for me at least if no one else. Cheers Ben

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More pics for you Ben. Yes, you are correct about he piston pins, held in by a bolt that pass a cut out in the pin. However, these bolts were torque down very tight, need an extension on the ratchet to undo. My guess, probably around 50Nm or more. As always, there is one that is a PITA.

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Interestingly, there we two slightly different piston setups.

Four with skirt expanders installed. All of these had a crack above the hole that holds the spring assembly inside the piston.

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And two without the skirt expander.

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Couple of chips out of the babbits in a couple big ends of the conrods.

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And the seals on the rear of the crank.

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