Dimensions for Rudge-Whitworth splined hubs?

[Gary_Ash]

I've searched high and low for a concise, definitive listing of the dimensions of the Rudge-Whitworth splined hubs for wire wheels with knock-off spinners.  These were used in Europe and the U.S. from 1908 and beyond, still used today.  The best data I've found was an article by Alec Ulmann in the VMCCA "Bulb Horn" magazine from 1974.  While there are a number of U.S., British, Italian, and Argentinian companies that will make new wire wheels and hubs, none of them list the actual outside and inside diameter of the splines.  I'm pretty sure that the tooth pitch is 10 splines per inch of circumference, tooth angle of the splines is 60 degrees, and the radius of the tips is nominally .016" or 0.4 mm.  That should define the dimensions completely when you know the number of splines to be cut. 

 

However, when I run exact math calculations based on the number of splines and 10 splines per inch of circumference of the pitch diameter circle, my results don't agree exactly with the numbers I see on the web sites of the wire wheel and hub suppliers, mostly UK firms, and there are some small differences with the numbers that Alex Ulmann published 42 years ago.  Unfortunately, Mr. Ulmann has been deceased for 30 years.  Does anyone really have some good data for the actual tip radius and o.d./i.d. of the splined hubs?  Many hub/wheel vendors give numbers with +/- 1/2 mm (.020") tolerance, but they all seem to copy the same inexact data.  Give me the real stuff!

 

These have nothing to do with Dayton, Houck, or many other brands of wire wheels.  Dunlop and Borrani wheels use the Rudge-Whitworth dimensions.

 

Here are my calculations, using the Rudge-Whitworth 42 mm hub size (like MG's, etc.) as an example.  The Rudge-Whitworth "size" refers to the nominal outside diameter of the largest bearing that can be used in the hub, but does not relate to any other physical dimension.  I derived the results using basic trigonometry to 0.000001" resolution just to be sure.  Some hub/wheel makers may just machine flats instead of true radius on the teeth tips and roots but the results should be close to the calculations.

 

 

    

 

PDF file of Ulmann article

Rudge wheels - Ulmann 1974 VMCCA.pdf

Edited November 24, 2016 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Craig Gillingham]

That is interesting, you've gone to a lot of effort here! Excellent stuff. And, I haven't seen that particular PDF file before either.

 

I've used this table to measure hubs and wheels before. I don't know if it'll be a help or a hindrance. I can't remember where I got it from, I guess from a German site. The outer spline dimensions are very similar to what you've got on your table for a Rudge 42 outer diameter, 62.01mm v's 62.2mm. I've got a feeling the original splined Rudge hubs I've seen have a definate 'point' at the tip and aren't flat. I'll look at a couple tomorrow to make sure.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Craig Gillingham (see edit history)

[DavidAU]

These people manufacture them and may be able to help you.

 

http://www.vintagerims.com/Wheel_Centres_Vintage_Rims.html

[Guest Brad_NZ]

Just keep in mind that due to the Kaikoura Earthquake here in New Zealand vintage rims may not be operating and poor Gary lost his partner in the quake as well

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/86420140/fatality-in-mt-lyford-partner-of-local-identity

[Gary_Ash]

I had spoken to Gary Morton about the hubs and wire wheels a couple of years ago.  He gave me a lot of useful information, but he indicated that he wasn't in a position to make my special hubs and build the wheels, if only because of the shipping costs.  I think he supplies rims in bulk to a number of wheel builders around the world.  Sorry to hear about the death of his partner.

[Guest Andrew T]

Hello Gary - I'm doing the same exercise as you, and also having little success finding original drawings for a 42mm hub, but here is a late 1930s drawing of a bigger diameter hub with no 60 deg angles to be seen.

 

Yesterday I sawed up and shadowgraphed a new 42mm MG hub, and that wasnt 60 degree either ?

 

I wonder if 60 deg is just an assumption thats been made in the past ? 

 

Regards Andrew

Edited December 15, 2016 by Andrew T
typo (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Andrew:

 

Great info!  Do you have a little larger view that shows the rest of the dimensions?  Which hub size was the drawing for?  I'm intrigued by the 1/16" dia "wire" laying in the splines.  It seems to be tangent to some major diameter.  The callouts point to the radius of the inner root and outer tooth shape but the values don't show.  I'll try to lay out a hub using the shapes you show and see where it leads.  Very strange angles!

 

Thanks!

[Mike Raahauge]

Gary, good evening.

Excellent content, congratulations, I tried but failed to find this info a few years back for 32mm hubs on my Amilcar.

I am now working on a project with a Hotchkiss chassis which has RAF (Roue Amovible Franciase) hubs and wonder if you know of anyone who has info on these.

Rolls Royce amongst others used a similar system but I do not know whether they devised their own (most likely) or whether they were copies of the French ones.

I am specifically interested in the locking devices of which there seem to be at least five different sizes.

Any help appreciated.

All the best for 2019.

Thanks and regards

Mike (in the UK)

 

 

[Gary_Ash]

I did a little Googling, see that the RAF hubs have squarish splines.  I don't have any info on dimensions of RAF hubs.

 

See this site in Australia for perhaps what you are looking for:

http://speedex.com.au/index.php?route=product/category&path=141

They do seem to make a lot of strange and wonderful stuff.

 

 

 

and this one in the UK:

http://www.gentryrestorations.co.uk/bugatti-wheels-hubs

They at least list a locking wheel nut for RAF hubs.  

 

You can also give a call to MWS Wire Wheels in Slough, near Heathrow Airport.  They made my 18" x4" wire wheels with 72 mm centers.  They might be able to help with RAF-style wheel parts or at least send you to someone who can help.  I had the Rudge-Style splined hubs and spinners/locknuts machined in China from drawings I made.  MWS has lots of Rudge-style splined hubs and spinners for sale at very reasonable prices to fit most British cars and others, as well as lots of wire wheels.

See http://www.mwsint.com

 

Here's the hub and locknut from Speedex:

Edited January 7, 2019 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[Craig Gillingham]

RAF hubs are referenced by the number of splines; I know there is a 48 spline, and a 49 spline. But, they made a range of sizes from the Amilcars up to the R-R. I've seen a Hotchkiss diff from the early 20's that had RAF hubs, and they were a mid-sized looking hub. It would have been one of the 2 litre cars. I was told once that RAF was actually owned by Dunlop and at some stage in the mid 20's the name on them changed from RAF to Dunlop, so I think they are the same thing. I know the hubcap spanners are the same between the two. The RAF used on the Bugattis were on some Brescias (equivalent size to a Rudge 42) and Type 30's (not sure, but possibly the same). Just about all Minervas up to about 1923-24 used RAF wheels, then changed to Rudge. The 20HP and 30HP used a size the equivalent to a Rudge 90, I'm not sure about the 16HP. A wanted advert on prewarcar may help, as I've seen RAF hubs for sale on there occasionally.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Craig Gillingham (see edit history)

[Mike Raahauge]

Gary and Craig thank you.

I will log my findings for general interest after I have made some progress,

 

[Terry Parker]

Hi folks, Have been down the same path.  Don't know where I found the attached, but it has been  found correct on many occasions.    Regards Terry Parker

[Charles Test]

WANTED

(5) 34”x4” RUDGE racing wire wheels for a 1916 HUDSON with correct, compatible Centres,  Hubs, Lock Rings...?  Yes, we are willing to fabricate the needed parts.

Do mechanical drawings exist for Standard 62 Centres Long 160mm Front & Rear HUBS?  Do mechanical drawings exist for the other missing parts we need?