heygibb Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) This is a continuation of "what did you do to your Reatta today", specific to the crank/no start issue I am having. Thanks. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #618 Posted November 18 · Report post Hello everyone. I bought a new Standard oil pressure unit trying to solve a starting issue I am having on my '90 coupe. I installed it and still could not get car to start. W/out proper signalling from that sensor, I believe the fuel pump will not do its job, as I get no fuel pressure at rail. So, I bench tested the oil sender, using a method I saw online. Here is the link: It failed the test. I guess what I am wondering is 1-have any of you bench tested the oil sensor using this method? and 2- is it unusual to have a new unit fail out of the box? I bench tested the original unit and it failed, also. I hope this posts ok. I don't think I have ever embedded a YT vid before. Thanks for your input. Tim 89RedDarkGrey likes this Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #619 Posted November 18 · Report post I don't believe the oil pressure sensor will keep the engine from running. I just went out to the garage, disconnected my oil pressure sender, and then started the engine. It started up and ran just fine. Oil pressure was reading 225 psi. Will the engine keep running if you apply 12 volts to the prime/test connector before you start the engine? Connecting 12 volts to the green connector will keep the fuel pump running until you disconnect it. 89RedDarkGrey likes this Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #620 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 9:45 PM, Ronnie said: I don't believe the oil pressure sensor will keep the engine from running. I just went out to the garage, disconnected my oil pressure sender, and then started the engine. It started up and ran just fine. Oil pressure was reading 225 psi. Will the engine keep running if you apply 12 volts to the prime/test connector before you start the engine? Connecting 12 volts to the green connector will keep the fuel pump running until you disconnect it. Thanks for the quick reply Ronnie. I checked the prime circuit previously to make sure it wasn't my fuel pump and it works. I get pressure at the rail. I did not try to start the engine in that configuration though. I'll go out and try. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #621 Posted November 18 · Report post Have you checked to see if you are getting spark? I may have asked this before, sorry if I did. Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #622 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 10:09 PM, Ronnie said: Have you checked to see if you are getting spark? I may have asked this before, sorry if I did. I just cranked it w/ the fuel circuit bypassed by the primer terminal. The engine ran but made noises I haven't heard before. To put all this in context, I replaced the balancer just prior to this. The engine cranked and ran fine several times during an afternoon in the shop. So I know the crank postition sensor was not damaged or moved during that r and r. Prior to dropping car off jackstands, I tried troubleshooting a faulty readout on my ICP of the oil pressure, to determine if it was the gauge or the oil sender. While doing that test, I shorted something and the car would not start back up. I found I had blown the CCCI fuse and replaced it. I also checked the fuel pump relay and it was good. But to answer your question, no, I have not checked spark. I was convinced it was a breaker/relay problem since the engine quit after I blew that fuse. Since it cranked, I'm getting spark. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #623 Posted November 18 (edited) · Report post Here is the schematic I was using to track down possible issue. Everything, other than the oil pressure unit, has been checked to be working. That is why I thought it was the unit itself, being the problem. Ignore question mark re relay...already checked Edited November 18 by heygibb clarification (see edit history) Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #624 Posted November 18 · Report post Could I have damaged the ECM or BCM when I shorted that circuit during my test of the cluster gauge? I ran OBD and it still provides info of both systems. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar DAVES89 Senior Member Members 179 5,158 posts LocationMenasha, Wi. · #625 Posted November 18 · Report post Do you have an extra Ignition Control Module/coil pack? Just for grins give it a try. I had one go bad and it was a b***h to start and hardly ran and made weird noises. My buddy said "I am on my way over but swap out the ICM while you wait" Bythe time he got there I had it swapped out and the car was running... Quote BCA & Reatta Club affiliated '89 Red/Tan "Betty" '89 Black/Gray "Veronica" '90 Black/Tan 'vert "Annie" [says so in the pin stripe!] '88 Pewter Model heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #626 Posted November 18 · Report post That would definitely be on my list, Dave, but I just replaced the icm and coil packs within the past year. Probably <2000 miles on them. They were new, not salvage parts. The car cranked and idled fine just before the stupid cluster gauge test I did. Unless I damaged those parts by grounding that circuit, I have faith they are still good. Is it possible I damaged them? When I look at the circuit diagram, it is a component to consider. No doubt about it. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #627 Posted November 18 · Report post It could possibly be the ECM. It's hard to say. You really need to know if it is losing fuel pressure or spark or both when it dies or will not start. If it were me I would start by hooking up a fuel pressure gauge to the engine and watch it closely to see if the pressure is low when the engine dies. If it keeps good fuel pressure then you can concentrate on why it is losing spark. Keep in mind that a bad crankshaft position sensor can cause it to lose both spark and fuel pressure. Without a signal from the crankshaft sensor the ECM will not pick up the fuel pump relay after the engine starts AND the ICM will not fire the spark plugs unless it gets a signal from the crankshaft sensor. 89RedDarkGrey likes this Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #628 Posted November 18 (edited) · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 10:44 PM, Ronnie said: It could possibly be the ECM. It's hard to say. You really need to know if it is losing fuel pressure or spark or both when it dies or will not start. If it were me I would start by hooking up a fuel pressure gauge to the engine and watch it closely to see if the pressure is low when the engine dies. If it keeps good fuel pressure then you can concentrate on why it is losing spark. Keep in mind that a bad crankshaft position sensor can cause it to lose both spark and fuel pressure. Without a signal from the crankshaft sensor the ECM will not pick up the fuel pump relay after the engine starts AND the ICM will not fire the spark plugs unless it gets a signal from the crankshaft sensor. There is no pressure w/out using the prime leg of that circuit. So doing the pressure test won't work. (I'm familiar w/ your diagnostics page.) If I get no fuel, as is, it seems to me it is a failure of an electronic signal somewhere in the circuit. I'm thinking of trying another crankshaft sensor. It's just weird, as the new balancer worked fine, meaning the cps worked fine, before the short. I have another cps. Maybe I'll give it a go tomorrow. One thing that leads to that being the problem is a test I did that is on your site. I connected vom to green prime terminal and grounded other lead, then turn key over to start. According to your test, vom should read 12 v. MIne reads 7v for a split second and then goes to zero. Edited November 18 by heygibb clarification (see edit history) Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #629 Posted November 18 (edited) · Report post Have you replaced the fuel pump relay? If not it would be a good investment to eliminate it as being the problem. Here is what should happen for the car to start and run from a fuel pressure point of view: When you turn the key to the run position the ECM should pick up the fuel pump relay for a few seconds to prime the system - and then drop it out. This should happen each time your turn the key off and then to the run position. You should hear the pump run for a few seconds. Do you? Once the engine starts and the ECM gets a signal from the crankshaft senor that the engine is turning it will pick up the fuel pump relay and keep it latched in to power the fuel pump as long as the engine is running. Now here is where the oil pressure circuit comes in... As long as the engine has oil pressure the contacts in the oil pressure sensor bypass the fuel pump relay and power the fuel pump too. It is like a limp home mode. That brings a question to mind. Have you tried spinning the starter long enough to build engine oil pressure to see if the engine will start? Once the engine builds oil pressure (see your diagram) the oil pressure sensor contacts should supply power to the fuel pump. Try that and see what happens. Edited November 18 by Ronnie (see edit history) Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #630 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 10:19 PM, heygibb said: I just cranked it w/ the fuel circuit bypassed by the primer terminal. The engine ran but made noises I haven't heard before. BTW, Those noises weren't caused by using the primer terminal. Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #631 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 11:08 PM, Ronnie said: Have you replaced the fuel pump relay? If not it would be a good investment to eliminate it as being the problem. Yes. It clicks every time I try the ignition. Here is what should happen for the car to start and run from a fuel pressure point of view: When you turn the key to the run position the ECM should pick up the fuel pump relay for a few seconds to prime the system - and then drop it out. This should happen each time your turn the key off and then to the run position. You should hear the pump run for a few seconds. Do you? It hums like normal but no pressure at rails. The hum is under the hood. At the fuel tank, no activity. From what you are saying, the ECM isn't picking up the signal from the relay, because no fuel is being pumped to the engine. Sound correct? Once the engine starts and the ECM gets a signal from the crankshaft senor that the engine is turning it will pick up the fuel pump relay and keep it latched in to power the fuel pump as long as the engine is running. The engine doesn't start since it isn't getting fuel. I checked at the rail w/ the Schrader valve. I only get fuel there w/ the green prime terminal activated. Now here is where the oil pressure circuit comes in... As long as the engine has oil pressure the contacts in the oil pressure sensor bypass the fuel pump relay and power the fuel pump too. It is like a limp home mode. That brings a question to mind. Have you tried spinning the starter long enough to build engine oil pressure to see if the engine will start? Once the engine builds oil pressure (see your diagram) the oil pressure sensor contacts should supply power to the fuel pump. Try that and see what happens. When trying to start the car, I've held the key over for 5-7 seconds at a time. I didn't do it w/ the intent of building up the oil pressure but I could do it longer, I suppose. This goes back to my first question though. I don't thing the sending unit I bought is working. The bench test says it isn't. So even if I build the pressure p, if the sending unit doesn't do its thing, I'm not sure it will start. I can try it though. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #632 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 11:23 PM, Ronnie said: BTW, Those noises weren't caused by using the primer terminal. Thanks for mentioning that. The noises were spread around the engine. The latest noise I am familiar with was the harmonic balancer clank, which was localized. The noises I heard w/ the prime start were other places, and they seemed to be in the upper area of the block. Weird. I cut engine instead of letting it run to find the source. I didn't want to damage anything. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #633 Posted November 18 · Report post Would the engine crank at all if the ECM were bad? Since I'm kind of force feeding fuel w/ the green primer terminal, I could see where the ECM is being bypassed and it still cranks. Am I wrong? That would explain it not providing fuel the normal way. Are they still available new? Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #634 Posted November 18 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 11:24 PM, heygibb said: It hums like normal but no pressure at rails. Is it possible you are hearing the brake pump motor running? On 11/18/2016 at 11:24 PM, heygibb said: From what you are saying, the ECM isn't picking up the signal from the relay, because no fuel is being pumped to the engine. Sound correct? Well it should start for a second on the pressure that should be built during the ECM prime cycle if it is working right. On 11/18/2016 at 11:24 PM, heygibb said: The engine doesn't start since it isn't getting fuel. I checked at the rail w/ the Schrader valve. I only get fuel there w/ the green prime terminal activated. That leads me to believe the problem is with the fuel pump relay, the relay power circuit or the ECM not picking up the relay correctly. Quote Would the engine crank at all if the ECM were bad? Since I'm kind of force feeding fuel w/ the green primer terminal, I could see where the ECM is being bypassed and it still cranks. Am I wrong? That would explain it not providing fuel the normal way. Are they still available new? The ECM could be the problem. There are a lot of different ways it could fail. They are still available but it is an expensive part. I would rule out everything else first. To be honest I don't really think that is it. The ECM wouldn't cause you to only read 7 volts at the green connector instead of 12. That low voltage is more of a function of the fuel pump relay or the circuit powering the relay. The ECM only picks up the relay. There is a different circuit that provides power to contacts in the relay. Perhaps you should check that circuit to see if 12 volts is getting to the fuel pump relay. Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #635 Posted November 19 · Report post On 11/18/2016 at 11:48 PM, Ronnie said: Is it possible you are hearing the brake pump motor running? I was just reading about that hum under the hood. That is what it is. Well it should start for a second on the pressure that should be built during the ECM prime cycle if it is working right. Not even close to starting. That leads me to believe the problem is with the fuel pump relay, the relay power circuit or the ECM not picking up the relay correctly. I tested and replaced the relay several times. It is located in the interior relay center, RH side of console. It clicks every time I turn the key over. I can try another one, I suppose. The ECM could be the problem. There are a lot of different ways it could fail. They are still available but it is an expensive part. I would rule out everything else first. To be honest I don't really think that is it. The ECM wouldn't cause you to only read 7 volts at the green connector instead of 12. That low voltage is more of a function of the fuel pump relay or the circuit powering the relay. The ECM only picks up the relay. There is a different circuit that provides power to contacts in the relay. Perhaps you should check that circuit to see if 12 volts is getting to the fuel pump relay. Is the circuit you speak of the one on the far left in the diagram I posted? If so, I need to check the voltage between the relay and ECM? It is a DRK GRN/WHT wire. That should read 12v coming from relay, w/ key in run position? I have to check out for hunting trip in AM. Thanks for your interest and help. I do have one thing to check...maybe makes no sense, but I cleared the OBD info prior to starting engine w/ the primer terminal. If I run the OBD again, won't it show some diagnostic info if the ECM is still working? Now that I think about it, there would be no codes on what we are dealing with. I could be wrong about that. I'll check the thread tomorrow afternoon. Tim Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #636 Posted November 19 (edited) · Report post On 11/19/2016 at 0:04 AM, heygibb said: I tested and replaced the relay several times. It is located in the interior relay center, RH side of console. It clicks every time I turn the key over. I can try another one, I suppose. You should test the relay at terminal #1 in your diagram to make sure it has 12 volts going into the relay. If it doesn't you could have a bad/dirty fuse connection. Terminal # 1 should have 12 volts when the key is turned to run. Then check terminal #4 on the relay to see if it has 12 volts coming out monetarily when you turn the key to run. If you can hear the relay clicking the ECM is probably doing it's job of momentarily providing a prime shot when you turn the key to run. My fuel pump relay is on the firewall. The testing I talked about would be pretty easy to do. I don't know how to tell you to test the relay on the '90. I wouldn't do any testing on the circuit between the ECM and relay unless you are sure how to do it. (I don't) You might damage the ECM. If the ECM is picking up the relay when you turn the key to run it is doing it's job at that point and the engine should build enough fuel pressure to start providing everything else is working properly. As for checking the OBD. a bad crank sensor or ICM won't set a code, nor will low fuel pressure. I would check for codes anyway. Edited November 21 by Ronnie (see edit history) Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. DAVES89 Senior Member Members 179 5,158 posts LocationMenasha, Wi. · #637 Posted November 19 · Report post I had to replace the hub assembly on the Red again as the new one I installed a month ago failed. While I was there I took a close look at my protype reconditioned sensor lead I installed about 45,000 miles ago. What I was doing at the time was just repairing the bad area of the lead using a heat shrink with a shrink ratio of 4-1. So what happened with this lead is that the reconditioned part is holding up well but the original part has cracks and needs to be repaired. It is now in my "needs to be rebuilt" pile of leads. 89RedDarkGrey and Ronnie like this Quote BCA & Reatta Club affiliated '89 Red/Tan "Betty" '89 Black/Gray "Veronica" '90 Black/Tan 'vert "Annie" [says so in the pin stripe!] '88 Pewter Model Enjoying the Reatta experience! heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #638 Posted November 19 · Report post On 11/19/2016 at 0:34 AM, Ronnie said: You should test the relay at terminal #1 in your diagram to make sure it has 12 volts going into the relay. If it doesn't you could have a bad/dirty fuse connection. Terminal # 1 should have 12 volts all the time. Then check terminal #4 on the relay to see if it has 12 volts coming out monetarily when you turn the key to run. If you can hear the relay clicking the ECM is probably doing it's job of momentarily providing a prime shot when you turn the key to run. My fuel pump relay is on the firewall. The testing I talked about would be pretty easy to do. I don't know how to tell you to test the relay on the '90. I wouldn't do any testing on the circuit between the ECM and relay unless you are sure how to do it. (I don't) You might damage the ECM. If the ECM is picking up the relay when you turn the key to run it is doing it's job at that point and the engine should build enough fuel pressure to start providing everything else is working properly. As for checking the OBD. a bad crank sensor or ICM won't set a code, nor will low fuel pressure. I would check for codes though. It's been a long day. Not much sleep last night and hunting most of the day. I'll follow your suggestions but it will be tomorrow. A thought occurred to me last night in bed. It is kind of a back door approach to the potential of the ECM being the problem. To see if it is working, I think I will disable the EGR and look for an E026 code. There is, also, an ED99 data value that is an indicator whether the proper PROM is installed in the ECM. This info might be stored in memory and not important, but if it is real time info, it might tell me if the ECM data is accessible. The PROM number itself isn't what I'm looking for, just whether it posts or not. I want to post something as a warning to others. It is the diagnostic procedure I tried to use for determining whether the false readout of my cluster gauge was from oil sending unit failure or gauge failure. When I attempted to ground the sending unit via the plug from the harness, I shorted the circuit. It blew my CCCI breaker and caused whatever I'm dealing w/ now. My car purred after the harmonic balancer change out, done just before this. After this procedure, car would not crank except w/ prime fuel terminal. When I grounded the 'wire', I touched the hot leg, evidently instead of the leg going back to IPC. There are four wires in the harness...PNK/BLK (pink /w black stripe), BLK/PNK (black w/ pink stripe), GRY (gray), and GRN (green). The PNK/BLK feeds the ICM. The GRY feeds the fuel pump. The GRN carries 5v from ignition, I believe. ( I am not certain, as the schematic posted before only IDs 2 of the 4 wires.) And my GRN wire carries 2.75v. Both of these voltage readings are w/ the key on run/no start and could be erroneous. I never checked these values prior to this. Here is the process I copied and pasted from the internet. I couldn't find the direct link. This was in my files. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!! USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! For vehicles with an oil pressure gauge, the sending unit (located next to the oil filter) is essentially a variable path to ground for the gauge. When the engine is off, the sender is shorted to ground, and the gauge reads "0" psi (or close), as the oil pressure increases, the sender offers resistance to ground, providing a mid scale readings on the gauge. If the wire is removed altogether, the gauge will read off the scale to the high side (3:00 position) all the time. This is a quick and simple test you can perform to help isolate the problem. With the key ON - engine OFF, pull the wire off the sending unit. The gauge should read full scale. Now short the wire to ground (this will not harm anything), and it should read "0". If this is correct, then your gauge, and the wiring is good, and your trouble is likely to be the sending unit. If this test has little or no effect on the gauge, then your problem is in the wiring or the gauge itself. For vehicles with an indicator light, the sending unit is like a simple switch. When the engine is off, or the pressure is too low, the switch closes, and illuminates the lamp. Under pressure, the switch is open and the lamp goes out. The only difference in the above test, is with the wire disconnected, the light is out, and with the wire grounded, the light is on. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar rjfranken Senior Member Members 10 278 posts · #639 Posted November 20 · Report post Tom Payette (buick dealer in Louisville) came out to see my cars for sale. maybe ill get some traction Quote [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]Bob Means Cha/Tea. 89 Blue/Blue Coupe needs engine, 89 Silver/gray sunroof car needs tranny 90 White/blue sunroof driver 90 white/tan parts car has engine and tranny heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #640 Posted November 20 · Report post I got a chance to do a little more troubleshooting today. I did get past one issue that occurred Sat. The engine did not shudder, w/ new noises, when started w/ prime circuit for fuel.. It idled normally and cranked every time I tried it. I ran OBD, both running and engine off. Most data was within normal limits. I did get one error code, B132, which is for oil pressure sender failure. I got this code w/ the sender connector not plugged in. After I plugged in the harness, the code went away. That is a little confusing since I think the sender is bad. Maybe just being plugged in allows signaling to BCM that it is in place, but not necessarily working right. I don’t know.ENGINE RUNNING BD71 Oil psi all over the place between 66-254…probably normal for bad sender ED17 OLD PA3 (knock signal) was 451, outside of the 0-255 parameter…I don’t know what it means. I disconnected EGR connector prior to start but did not get an error code for that like I thought I would.ENGINE OFF BD99 BCM Prom ID 9534…should be between 0-9999 ED99 ECM Prom ID 9044…this is high unless my info has typo (0-999) EO 04 EGR Sol #1 I could hear it energize under the hood…readout lo-hi EO 05 EGR Sol #2 same EO 06 EGR Sol #3 same These readings are with EGR connected. I read the voltage at the prime terminal when key turned on to start, I get zero (0) volts. That indicates a bad crank position sensor. Is that possible, if engine cranks w/ fuel assist from prime terminal? I’ll do some more research online tomorrow. If the unusual OBD numbers above mean anything to someone, chime in. Tim Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Ronnie www.ReattaOwner.com Members 271 7,527 posts Location: East Tennessee · #641 Posted November 20 (edited) · Report post On 11/20/2016 at 9:37 PM, heygibb said: ED99 ECM Prom ID 9044…this is high unless my info has typo (0-999) That is the correct ECM Prom ID number for a 1990 model. On 11/20/2016 at 9:37 PM, heygibb said: I read the voltage at the prime terminal when key turned on to start, I get zero (0) volts. That indicates a bad crank position sensor. Is that possible, if engine cranks w/ fuel assist from prime terminal? I'm not sure how you determined that means the crankshaft position sensor is bad. I must be missing something. If the engine is running the crank position sensor has to be working or you wouldn't have a spark. The ICM needs a signal from the crank sensor to know when to fire the spark plugs. No crank sensor signal=No spark. I recommend you go back to my last post and check the circuit in your diagram from the fuse a to the fuel pump relay. I have highlighted the circuit in red that needs to be tested in the photo below. That circuit is what powers the pump. The ECM only picks up the fuel pump relay to complete the circuit. Edited November 21 by Ronnie fixed typos (see edit history) 89RedDarkGrey likes this Quote Ronnie 1988 Red/Tan. - BCA & Reatta Division Member My Websites: Reatta Owners Journal - www.reattaowner.com - Repair Tutorials, How-To Guides and Reatta Discussion Forums.The Reatta Store - www.thereattastore.com - Reatta parts and accessories. 89RedDarkGrey Senior Member Members 99 625 posts Location: Upstate, NY · #642 Posted November 20 · Report post On 11/20/2016 at 9:37 PM, heygibb said: ED99 ECM Prom ID 9044…this is high unless my info has typo (0-999) 9044 is high? What should your ECM PROM be? I would be weary of "online" information; treat it as a guide. Nothing beats OEM information- especially with an old Computer Car such as a Reatta. I would never go around unplugging components that are energized. IMHO Quote 1989 Red / Dark Grey #3111 More photos & videos of my doings are here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-oBU2cMoPfDtiF2j0ezp0g DAVES89 Senior Member Members 179 5,158 posts LocationMenasha, Wi. · #643 Posted November 20 · Report post Listen to Ronnie. This is going to be another series of posts similar to "Snowdrift". I would recommend you start a new post as this one may get long... Nittany and 89RedDarkGrey like this Quote BCA & Reatta Club affiliated '89 Red/Tan "Betty" '89 Black/Gray "Veronica" '90 Black/Tan 'vert "Annie" [says so in the pin stripe!] '88 Pewter Model Enjoying the Reatta experience! heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #644 Posted November 21 · Report post On 11/20/2016 at 10:22 PM, Ronnie said: That is the correct ECM Prom ID number for a 1990 model. I'm not sure how you determined that means the crankshaft position sensor is bad. I must be missing something. If the engine is running the crank position sensor has to be working or you wouldn't have a spark. The ICM needs a signal from the crank sensor to know when to fire the spark plugs. No crank sensor signal=No spark. I recommend you go back to my last post and check the circuit in your diagram from the fuse a to the fuel pump relay. I have highlighted the circuit in red that needs to be tested in the photo below. That circuit is what powers the pump. The ECM only picks up the fuel pump relay to complete the circuit. re ED99 data, I figured the 9044 number was correct. That is why I mentioned a possible typo in my source, found here... http://www.reatta.net/diagnostics/diag_ecm_bcm.html ...third page, under "for ECM data"...parameter 0-999 re the crank position sensor issue. In a posting by you in 2014, you indicated the CPS was good if I detected 12v from the prime terminal during cranking. I don't. That is why I made the rhetorical comment Is that possible, if engine cranks w/ fuel assist from prime terminal?... re testing the circuit you mentioned in a previous post, that was next on my list. I didn't spend much time in the garage yesterday. I wanted to focus on the OBD data w/ and w/out the EGR valve connected. I was trying to see if I got an error code, to determine, in a back door way, if the ECM was working. I got no error code w/ it disconnected. as requested, I will post new thread so it can be followed coherently. I'll list it as "crank/no start" Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #645 Posted November 21 · Report post On 11/20/2016 at 10:48 PM, 89RedDarkGrey said: 9044 is high? What should your ECM PROM be? I would be weary of "online" information; treat it as a guide. Nothing beats OEM information- especially with an old Computer Car such as a Reatta. I would never go around unplugging components that are energized. IMHO re PROM data, see above post to Ronnie ...9044 is correct re online info. I was weary before, but more weary now. I use the manual all the time, when needed. I don't unplug devices while energized. I've been building computers too long to do that. Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar heygibb Senior Member Members 8 178 posts · #646 Posted November 21 · Report post On 11/20/2016 at 11:58 PM, DAVES89 said: Listen to Ronnie. This is going to be another series of posts similar to "Snowdrift". I would recommend you start a new post as this one may get long... Good advice. That's my fault. The continuation of this topic is now in its own thread. crank/no start Quote Edit Options 1990 Red Reatta Coupe Tan Interior, No sunroof or 16 way seats '89 GMC Sierra K1500 '91 Ford Aerostar Edited November 28, 2016 by heygibb collate thread (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) OK, starting a new thread is good. Let's take a deep breath and forget all about what other websites have to say and stick with what we know and what we can learn by testing. I've read through your posts in the other thread again. Here is what we know for sure. 1. The CCC fuse is good and circuit 839 between the fuse and the injectors is good. We know that because the engine will run. 2. We know the crankshaft position sensor is sending a signal to the ECM because the engine will run. 3. We know circuit 120, the Gray wire that powers the fuel pump is NOT getting power from the fuel pump relay OR the oil pressure sender as it should when the engine builds oil pressure (over 4 psi). 4. We know circuit 120 from the prime/test connector to the fuel pump is good because you can power on the pump by connecting 12 volts to the prime connector. As you can see we have already narrowed down the problem considerably. Now here are the things that we need to know. A. Why does the not supply 12 volts to circuit 120 when the engine builds fuel pressure? B. Is circuit 839 supplying 12 volts to terminal #1 on the fuel pump relay? C. Is the fuel pump relay being picked up by the ECM? D. Does terminal #4 supply 12 volts to circuit 120 (Gray wire) when the fuel pump relay is picked up? E. Why does the not supply 12 volts to circuit 120 when the engine builds fuel pressure? F. Is there a break or short in any of the wires that power the fuel pump? With a little testing in a step by step logical manner we can find your problem. Lets start with A, the oil pressure sender. - You said you thing the oil pressure sender is bad and I think the erratic oil pressure reading confirms it. You should replace it with a good one like this one. All oil pressure senders are not alike make sure you get the right one. You can probably find one locally. Then move on to B, - Test circuit 839 from the fuse to the fuel pump relay to ensure terminal #1 on the relay is getting 12 volts as I recommended before. Let me know what you find. Edited November 21, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) Thanks, Ronnie. I'll print that out and go from there. This is the sender I bought. It is brand new. http://thereattastore.com/standard-motor-products-oil-pressure-sender/ If there is no bench test I can use to check it out, I ordered the other. It might not mean anything, but the pictures on the AC/Delco look exactly like the Standard version. It has plastic where OEM had metal. It even has plastic residue in bottom of socket like the Std. version. Anyone know of a bench test for oil pressure sender? I'll have to wait for AC/Delco one to arrive...none available locally. Edited November 21, 2016 by heygibb additional info (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Have you tried putting 12v to the green prime connector and see if it will run ? That would eliminate both the switch and the relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, heygibb said: This is the sender I bought. It is brand new. http://thereattastore.com/standard-motor-products-oil-pressure-sender/ That one should work fine. I think it is what I installed in my car about 7 years ago because I couldn't find a Delco at the time. I really don't know how to test it the proper way. The description you gave of the oil pressure going from 66 and spiking at 250+ is a common failure mode for those sensors. That is what mine was doing when I first bought my Reatta. It spiking like that will caused a warning on the IPC to flash momentarily and then go away. Eventually it will set a code when it started to spike for longer periods (a few seconds). I don't believe the oil sender is the cause of the fuel pump not running on startup but the contacts in it should keep the pump running once the engine is started. In any of the tests you have done so far, have you tried starting the engine with 12 volts connected to the prime connector and then disconnected it while the engine was running. If so did the engine die or keep running? Edited November 22, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 5 hours ago, Ronnie said: That one should work fine. I think it is what I installed in my car about 7 years ago because I couldn't find a Delco at the time. I really don't know how to test it the proper way. The description you gave of the oil pressure going from 66 and spiking at 250+ is a common failure mode for those sensors. That is what mine was doing when I first bought my Reatta. It spiking like that will caused a warning on the IPC to flash momentarily and then go away. Eventually it will set a code when it started to spike for longer periods (a few seconds). I don't believe the oil sender is the cause of the fuel pump not running on startup but the contacts in it should keep the pump running once the engine is started. In any of the tests you have done so far, have you tried starting the engine with 12 volts connected to the prime connector and then disconnected it while the engine was running. If so did the engine die or keep running? Well, I have some good news...quick background...when I installed the new Standard brand sensor, and the car didn't start (under normal conditions, no prime fuel feed), I removed it to bench test it. It did not pass the test I mentioned in my initial post. At that point, I thought I would be returning it so I put my OEM sensor back in the car. That is what I had in there when I cranked the car w/ prime bypass circuit and read the erratic OBD data. Before shipping the STD sensor back, I decided to re-install it and then crank engine w/ prime bypass circuit. The gauge went 12 o'clock high as it normally would be. I checked the OBD readout and it was a steady 40 psi. So, two things...the bench test is worthless and the STD sensor works. I'll check the voltage at the relay block tomorrow and try unhooking the 12v to the prime terminal after the car starts, also. I'll report back w/ the results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 OK keep in mind there are two circuits in the sender (DS-21 AFAIR) and four pins. One pair is the variable resistor that sends the pressure reading. The other is a normally open switch that closes at 4-6 psi and powers the fuel pump. Two different circuits and two pairs of wires. Just because you are getting an oil pressure signal to the dash does not mean the switch is acting properly. Saw that post from Ronnie but did not know if talking about the same car. If runs when you put 12v to the green/gray then I'd check for 12v for 2 seconds when the key is first turned on. That comes from the computer. Once it starts the switch should make and provide power from the sender 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 On 11/21/2016 at 1:49 PM, Ronnie said: OK, starting a new thread is good. Let's take a deep breath and forget all about what other websites have to say and stick with what we know and what we can learn by testing. I've read through your posts in the other thread again. Here is what we know for sure. 1. The CCC fuse is good and circuit 839 between the fuse and the injectors is good. We know that because the engine will run. 2. We know the crankshaft position sensor is sending a signal to the ECM because the engine will run. 3. We know circuit 120, the Gray wire that powers the fuel pump is NOT getting power from the fuel pump relay OR the oil pressure sender as it should when the engine builds oil pressure (over 4 psi). 4. We know circuit 120 from the prime/test connector to the fuel pump is good because you can power on the pump by connecting 12 volts to the prime connector. As you can see we have already narrowed down the problem considerably. Now here are the things that we need to know. A. Why does the not supply 12 volts to circuit 120 when the engine builds fuel pressure? B. Is circuit 839 supplying 12 volts to terminal #1 on the fuel pump relay? C. Is the fuel pump relay being picked up by the ECM? D. Does terminal #4 supply 12 volts to circuit 120 (Gray wire) when the fuel pump relay is picked up? E. Why does the not supply 12 volts to circuit 120 when the engine builds fuel pressure? F. Is there a break or short in any of the wires that power the fuel pump? With a little testing in a step by step logical manner we can find your problem. Lets start with A, the oil pressure sender. - You said you thing the oil pressure sender is bad and I think the erratic oil pressure reading confirms it. You should replace it with a good one like this one. All oil pressure senders are not alike make sure you get the right one. You can probably find one locally. Then move on to B, - Test circuit 839 from the fuse to the fuel pump relay to ensure terminal #1 on the relay is getting 12 volts as I recommended before. Let me know what you find. Here is latest.. W/ key off, I get 0 v at #1 contact of fuel pump relay (I checked fog light #1, right next to it, and it does have 12v) W/ key on, I get 12v at #1 contact of fuel pump relay and it activates relay when relay is in place I rechecked fuses for CCCI and ECM Sol, both were good. I got 12v on left contact of fuse receptacle w/ key on I unplugged the prime fuel circuit after a short idle, and the engine died immediately I'll be around if you want other diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, heygibb said: I unplugged the prime fuel circuit after a short idle, and the engine died immediately OK. We need to find out why the oil pressure sender contacts aren't keeping the fuel pump running. The problem could be a bad sender or a wiring problem. 1. Unplug the oil pressure sender. Then with the key turned to RUN, use a voltmeter to check terminal C of the CONNECTOR to a good chassis GROUND (see photo below). You should have 12 volts on terminal C with the key turned to RUN. If you don't there is a problem. 2. If you have 12 volts on terminal C - With key OFF jumper terminals D & C. Be sure you only touch terminals D & C and don't short something out. When you turn the key to RUN the fuel pump should run continuously as long as the key is ON and you should read 12 volts between the green prime connector and GROUND. Does pump run? 3. If the pump runs with terminals D& C jumped the engine should run. Make sure the oil pressure sender is clear of the belt before starting the engine! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 Awesome...will do re your #2, that is what caused this entire problem. I shorted the wrong contacts when trying to isolate whether gauge or sender was failing, during a diagnostic test...if that helps w/ your diagnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) If you just jumper D&C you should be fine as long as you don't short anything else out. . There is a possibility that circuit 120 (Gray wire) could have a short caused by what happened before. If you jumper D&C and the CCCI fuse blows you should suspect a short somewhere. Keep in mind that what you are doing now is a test - not a fix. Edited November 22, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 Understand re test, not fix 1. Unplug the oil pressure sender. Then with the key turned to RUN, use a voltmeter to check terminal C of the CONNECTOR to a good chassis GROUND (see photo below). You should have 12 volts on terminal C with the key turned to RUN. If you don't there is a problem. I get solid 12 volts 2. If you have 12 volts on terminal C - With key OFF jumper terminals D & C. Be sure you only touch terminals D & C and don't short something out. When you turn the key to RUN the fuel pump should run continuously as long as the key is ON Pump runs, checked at Schrader valve on rail and you should read 12 volts between the green prime connector and GROUND. Does pump run? only get 10 volts. I took two readings w/ different grounds...same 3. If the pump runs with terminals D& C jumped the engine should run. Make sure the oil pressure sender is clear of the belt before starting the engine! No start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 55 minutes ago, heygibb said: When you turn the key to RUN the fuel pump should run continuously as long as the key is ON Pump runs, checked at Schrader valve on rail and you should read 12 volts between the green prime connector and GROUND. Does pump run? only get 10 volts. I took two readings w/ different grounds...same Did you have a fuel pressure gauge connected to the fuel rail to determine the pump was running? Are you able to hear the fuel pump running at the tank? It seems odd that the engine wouldn't start if there was adequate fuel pressure, You did leave the jumper installed between D&C when you were trying to start the engine... right? Also did you check to see if there was 12 volts on the green prime connector with the key on and the jumper installed? I know this is a lot of questions. Just trying to determine why it won't start now if the pump is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 minute ago, Ronnie said: Did you have a fuel pressure gauge connected to the fuel rail to determine the pump was running? Are you able to hear the fuel pump running at the tank? no gauge, but depressing the Schrader valve indicates pressurized fuel...similar to when I start car w/ green prime terminal +12 volts It seems odd that the engine wouldn't start if there was adequate fuel pressure, You did leave the jumper installed between D&C when you were trying to start the engine... right? Correct Also did you check to see if there was 12 volts on the green prime connector with the key on and the jumper installed? Yes...it reads 10 volts only. I read it w/ two different ground connections to be sure i was getting good ground I know this is a lot of questions. Just trying to determine why it won't start now if the pump is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 One more test. With the jumper still connected to D&C, connect 12 volts to the green prime connector to get the engine running. Then disconnect the 12 volts to the green prime connector to see if the engine dies. If it does, try to determine if the pump is still running when it dies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 24 minutes ago, Ronnie said: One more test. With the jumper still connected to D&C, connect 12 volts to the green prime connector to get the engine running. Then disconnect the 12 volts to the green prime connector to see if the engine dies. If it does, try to determine if the pump is still running when it dies. My battery is discharged to the point it won't crank. I need to charge it, which I am doing. There is still enough juice to power the fuel pump though because it runs when the key is on/no start position. I'll go back out in an hour or so and try to crank /w green terminal and continue test. I ran OBD while out there and noticed a couple of new codes, but they were already history. b420h BCM Output Driver/1 Failure e026h Quad driver Not sure they are relevant to anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 10v is plenty for a good fuel pump though possible it runs on 12v but not on 10. How many miles on the FP ? Would really help to have a gauge on the fuel rail 15 psi will squirt but might not idle. Is the squirt different with D&C connected than when you put 12v to the prime connector ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, padgett said: 10v is plenty for a good fuel pump though possible it runs on 12v but not on 10. How many miles on the FP ? Would really help to have a gauge on the fuel rail 15 psi will squirt but might not idle. Is the squirt different with D&C connected than when you put 12v to the prime connector ? I don't have a gauge to read the actual psi, but I am sure it is the same. It runs fine w/ the energized prime circuit...no faultering at idle. re the 10 v reading I got earlier from the prime terminal, it was probably because the battery was low on power. I'll read it again tomorrow when we have a full charge. I just tried to crank it but not enough charge yet. The cold weather doesn't help, I don't suppose. I'll give it a go in the morning. Thanks for all the expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 Good morning. This is going to twist your brain some more. After overnight battery charge, I checked voltage at prime terminal w/ key on/no start and got 12 volts With the key on, no start, I rechecked fuel pressure at rail and it was good W/ C-D terminals in sender harness still jumped, I energized prime terminal w/ 12v directly I started car and let it idle 3-4 min While idling, I checked OBD for codes...the b132 (oil sender) code was current since the sender is out of the loop. No other codes. I disconnected the 12v feed to the prime terminal, expecting the engine to die. It did not. While still running, I checked voltage output at prime terminal. It was 13 volts. I let engine idle another 3-4 min. I goosed it a couple of times and it reacted w/ no hesitation or skip. I cut engine off. I restarted w/out prime terminal in play. Car started normally. I guess that was my WTF moment as I don't know why. I repeated this 3 times. Car started normally. At this point, I have left the C-D jumper in place, bypassing the sender. I await further instructions. Before posting, I went back out and started the car again. No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, heygibb said: ... After overnight battery charge, I checked voltage at prime terminal w/ key on/no start and got 12 volts With the key on, no start, I rechecked fuel pressure at rail and it was good W/ C-D terminals in sender harness still jumped, I energized prime terminal w/ 12v directly I started car and let it idle 3-4 min While idling, I checked OBD for codes...the b132 (oil sender) code was current since the sender is out of the loop. No other codes. I disconnected the 12v feed to the prime terminal, expecting the engine to die. It did not. While still running, I checked voltage output at prime terminal. It was 13 volts. I let engine idle another 3-4 min. I goosed it a couple of times and it reacted w/ no hesitation or skip. I cut engine off. I restarted w/out prime terminal in play. Car started normally. I guess that was my WTF moment as I don't know why. I repeated this 3 times. Car started normally. At this point, I have left the C-D jumper in place, bypassing the sender. I await further instructions. Before posting, I went back out and started the car again. No problem. OK, I think we might be getting somewhere. Now we know the fuse and circuit is good that I highlighted in green in the photo below below. That circuit is what is powering the fuel pump. Now, Do exactly what you did again until you are sure the engine is going to start each time without 12 volts on the green prime connector.. Then remove the jumper and connect the oil pressure sender and try to start the engine. IF the contacts inside the sender are good the engine should start once you have cranked enough to build oil pressure.. Does it? If not repeat the procedure again using the prime connector to get it started and then remove it. Does the engine keep running? Edited November 23, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 1 hour ago, 89RedDarkGrey said: The Coolant Temperature Sensor plays a big role in starting- especially when engine is "cold". I wonder if the primer shot happens when it is "warmed enough"? I do know that squirrely things happen when the battery and/or alternator isn't high enough- think about how many systems & actuators rely on that battery when starting... You could be correct. I'm thinking maybe the ECM thinks the engine is warm with the jumper across the oil pressure sender contacts. That might tell it the engine is running and therefore doesn't need a rich mixture to start. I'm just guessing of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 59 minutes ago, Ronnie said: OK, I think we might be getting somewhere. Now we know the fuse and circuit is good that I highlighted in green in the photo below below. That circuit is what is powering the fuel pump. Now, Do exactly what you did again until you are sure the engine is going to start each time without 12 volts on the green prime connector.. Then remove the jumper and connect the oil pressure sender and try to start the engine. IF the contacts inside the sender are good the engine should start once you have cranked enough to build oil pressure.. Does it? If not repeat the procedure again using the prime connector to get it started and then remove it. Does the engine keep running? I removed jumper, connected harness to sensor. Car starts right up. Repeated several times over 30 minutes. Gauge reads properly. b132 code went to history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) That's great. You have confirmed the circuit highlighted in green is working properly. Now, I think the reason it will not start without 12 volts on the prime connector when cold is because the circuit highlighted in YELLOW (see photo below) isn't being completed to activate the pump in order to prime the system after fuel pressure had drained after the engine is cold, or it has sat for an extended period. If that is the care we need to find out why. That means more testing. You said you got 12 volts on terminal #1 of the fuel pump relay in a previous test. We are going to assume that is correct for now. Here is what you should do next: 1 - Unplug the oil pressure sender to be sure we are getting the reading we are looking for. 2.- Connect your voltmeter to test for 12 volts between the green prime connector and chassis ground. 3.- Put the meter in a location that you can see it when you turn the key to the run position. 4. Turn the key to the RUN position but don't start the engine. When you turn the key to run you should see the volt meter go up to about 12 volts for only a few seconds and the go back to 0 volts. Leave the key on long enough that you know the brake pump has built pressure and shuts off. Did you see 12 volts on the meter? Next, turn the key off for a few seconds and repeat the test to confirm what you found in the first test. Also, listen closely to see if you can hear the pump run. Do you hear it run? Let me know what you find.. Edited November 23, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 I don't think so, code was for OIL sender, not COOLANT. Since 0 is a valid oil pressure reading, lack of sender should not affect running if c-d is jumpered. Note that loss of the fused power takes out the injectors also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) Need to disconnect the C-D jumper also. Then should see a 2 second prime shot on key on (before start) from the relay. Restarts after a short delay and warm engine may have the fuel rail still primes. Have to let it sit for a while or depressurize the fuel rail. Edited November 23, 2016 by padgett (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, Ronnie said: That's great. You have confirmed the circuit highlighted in green is working properly. Now, I think the reason it will not start without 12 volts on the prime connector when cold is because the circuit highlighted in YELLOW (see photo below) isn't being completed to activate the pump in order to prime the system after fuel pressure had drained after the engine is cold, or it has sat for an extended period. If that is the care we need to find out why. That means more testing. You said you got 12 volts on terminal #1 of the fuel pump relay in a previous test. We are going to assume that is correct for now. Here is what you should do next: 1 - Unplug the oil pressure sender to be sure we are getting the reading we are looking for. 2.- Connect your voltmeter to test for 12 volts between the green prime connector and chassis ground. 3.- Put the meter in a location that you can see it when you turn the key to the run position. 4. Turn the key to the RUN position but don't start the engine. When you turn the key to run you should see the volt meter go up to about 12 volts for only a few seconds and the go back to 0 volts. Leave the key on long enough that you know the brake pump has built pressure and shuts off. Did you see 12 volts on the meter? Yes. 12v for a second, then to 0 Next, turn the key off for a few seconds and repeat the test to confirm what you found in the first test. Also, listen closely to see if you can hear the pump run. Do you hear it run? Second try, same results w/ voltage. I hear the pump run,but it cuts off on its own. By the time I get to rail to check pressure, there is none. I did not try to crank the engine. Let me know what you find.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 20 minutes ago, padgett said: Need to disconnect the C-D jumper also. Then should see a 2 second prime shot on key on (before start) from the relay. Restarts after a short delay and warm engine may have the fuel rail still primes. Have to let it sit for a while or depressurize the fuel rail. I don't want to cross up instructions. Should I try to start the car after depressurizing at the fuel rail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) 39 minutes ago, heygibb said: Second try, same results w/ voltage. I hear the pump run,but it cuts off on its own. By the time I get to rail to check pressure, there is none. I did not try to crank the engine. You seem to have confirmed the ECM is trying to prime the system and the pump is getting power but there is a problem if you don't get any fuel pressure by the time you get out and check it. You may possibly be the victim of a bad pulsator seal/connector (inside the tank - see photo) that is allowing the pressure in the system to leak down quickly into the tank. OR something similar. Possibly a bad regulator. If so you aren't the first person on this forum that happened to. You are going to need a fuel pressure gauge now. Most major auto parts stores have a loaner program that won't cost you anything to borrow one if you don't want to purchase one. This tutorial will explain how to test for correct pressure, how to test the regulator and how to do a leak down test. We sure have done a lot of electrical testing to discover this fuel pressure problem haven't we? Thanks to 89 Maui - AACA & ROJ Reatta Forum member for this photo Edited November 23, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, Ronnie said: You seem to have confirmed the ECM is trying to prime the system and the pump is getting power but there is a problem if you don't get any fuel pressure by the time you get out and check it. I guess I shouldn't have said "no" pressure. When I depress the Schrader valve, there is enough psi to push out some gas, but not like it would if continuously under pressure. You may possibly be the victim of a bad pulsator seal/connector (inside the tank - see photo) that is allowing the pressure in the system to leak down quickly into the tank. OR something similar. Possibly a bad regulator. If so you aren't the first person on this forum that happened to. You are going to need a fuel pressure gauge now. Most major auto parts stores have a loner program that won't cost you anything to borrow one if you don't want to purchase one. This tutorial will explain how to test for correct pressure, how to test the regulator and how to do a leak down test. We sure have done a lot of electrical testing to discover this fuel pressure problem haven't we? Troubleshooting is tedious. It's the nature of the beast and you have to be methodical...same as working on malfunctioning computers. re the pulsator. I replaced the fuel pump in Oct '15 w/ AC/Delco pump. When installing it, I removed the pulsator and replaced it w/ a straight rubber tube, as I recall. I'd have to look it up to be sure though. But the tank and pump have worked flawlessly since so I will be surprised if the fault is there. Just a reminder, this started w/ a shorted oil sender circuit to ground during a failed diagnostic test. All the mechanicals worked fine before that. I'll have to reconoiter a fuel pressure gauge for that test. I'll have to get back to you. I'm interested in what my actual fuel psi is at the rail. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, heygibb said: I guess I shouldn't have said "no" pressure. When I depress the Schrader valve, there is enough psi to push out some gas, but not like it would if continuously under pressure. . 12 minutes ago, heygibb said: I replaced the fuel pump in Oct '15 w/ AC/Delco pump. When installing it, I removed the pulsator and replaced it w/ a straight rubber tube, as I recall. I'd have to look it up to be sure though. But the tank and pump have worked flawlessly since so I will be surprised if the fault is there. Well that might kill my theory of fuel leaking back to the tank. All the testing you did seems to have confirmed the power to the pump is there as it should be. Maybe an intermittent problem?? I wouldn't go any further without putting a pressure gauge on it to make sure it has proper fuel pressure. You have got to know what is going on with it. Never rule out a part because it is new. Will the engine start and run now without the 12 volts hooked to the prime connector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 Yes. I hooked the sender back up and it cranked back up. That is great but I don't know of anything we have fixed or determined to be the problem...or did I miss it? lol I found a rental fuel pressure kit that I'll pickup while shopping for groceries. I'll check back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, heygibb said: Yes. I hooked the sender back up and it cranked back up. That is great but I don't know of anything we have fixed or determined to be the problem...or did I miss it? lol I found a rental fuel pressure kit that I'll pickup while shopping for groceries. I'll check back later. I don't know anything you did that would have fixed it unless pulling on the wires made a connection that was bad. I hope it is fixed but I doubt it is. You could probably drive it as long as you have a jumper wire for the prime connector in case it won't start. I wouldn't trust it until I knew what the problem is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 If the rail pressurized but loses pressure quickly could be either a leaking injector (should run a little rough when started then sooth out, or failing fuel regulator (any gasoline in the vacuum line ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 Good news on the fuel pressure...using your diagnostics Pressure test spikes at 43 Load test is steady 42 Leak Down test showed no drop in psi for 10 mins. It dropped from 42 to 40 when I unplugged direct 12v wire to green prime terminal, and stayed at 40 I agree w/ you...don't think it's been fixed. I'll carry the prime wire I made w/ me when I try driving it around town. What do you think it was? You don't have to relive the whole process but we went from no crank to crank&run w/ prime voltage only to crank&run normally, just by going through the jumper procedure on the harness wire connector. I can't think of anything I did differently re hooking up components. Anyway, it's running. So, is there anything else to check? Thanks for that blow up of the connector pin breakdown. I don't remember seeing that in the manual and am glad to learn where the GRN and BLK/PNK wires went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 (edited) I'm certainly happy to hear it wasn't the fuel pump. Testing it was worthwhile. It gives you peace of mind knowing the new pump is not failing. I'm sure pulling the tank to replace it is no fun. I don't know what might have fixed it. I hope it is fixed for good but I'm wondering if it will start again tomorrow morning without the prime wire connected. If it is fixed the only thing that comes to mind that might have happened is when you shorted the oil sender circuit and blew the CCCI fuse you might have scrambled the memory in the ECM where the "learned" information is stored. Perhaps running the engine for a while caused the ECM ro re-learn all the settings so it worked correctly again. Unhooking the battery cable and re-connecting it might have solved the problem if that was the case. Maybe Padgett or someone who knows the inner workings of the ECM better than me can comment on that. Otherwise the only thing the testing could have done would be to help with a bad connection. Nothing was actually changed as far as I know. I don't know anything else to do if it continues to start and run properly. Edited November 24, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 24, 2016 Author Share Posted November 24, 2016 Ronnie, I think your hunch about the re-learning by the ECM could be the answer. That is a good guess. W/out a definitive 'a-ha' moment, I will always wait for it to happen again though. In the meantime, I will carry this around w/ me. The pics may be way too big but I'm on a different pc and can't reduce the size. It's my prime terminal wire setup. I made it w/ appliance wire and some connector fittings. I keep the 'cap' on it when I unplug to reduce chance of grounding it laying under the hood. The cap is a female connector w/ a short section of clear hose covering the bare metal. Thanks again for the lesson. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heygibb Posted November 24, 2016 Author Share Posted November 24, 2016 1 hour ago, 89RedDarkGrey said: DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT At my age, that isn't a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, heygibb said: I will carry this around w/ me. I have jumper for the prime connector that I made up for the fuel pump testing tutorial. After this I may throw mine in the car just in case I need it. I'm glad I was able to help. I wish the end result was you finding something you could actually put your finger on that was fixed. Keep us posted on how it goes from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, 89RedDarkGrey said: Is there a chance that a relay could've been sticky- and all this freed it up? It's possible but I just don't know which one. He said he replaced the fuel pump relay, I think more than once. I guess I made this whole testing thing a lot longer and more drawn out than it needed to be but I like to try to go through a process of eliminating each possibility one at a time until I find something wrong. In this case I can't put my finger on exactly what was wrong that prevented the engine from starting . There is a reason for all things. Sometimes we know the reason... Sometimes we don't. Edited November 24, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 I wouldn't be surprised if the issue was a weakened battery that started behaving as it should after a recharge. Our Reatta's are known to have funny things occur that defy explanation as a battery is on its last legs, only to be "fixed" when the battery gets replaced. Or, my explanation may have nothing to do with the issue. In which case, let me offer a Happy Thanksgiving to all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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