How to get to the hvac control panel bulbs?

[96roadmaster]

First of all let me apologize for asking such an elementary question, but I couldn't find the result in a search and after my last move my manuals are still boxed up among dozens of boxes.

 

I replaced all my dash bulbs tonight, but can't figure out how to get to the bulbs in the hvac panel. Would appreciate any help please!

[KongaMan]

Is this on your '64?  IIRC, you have to pull the HVAC controls. 

 

Just out of curiosity, what bulbs did you put in your dash?

[96roadmaster]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

Is this on your '64?  IIRC, you have to pull the HVAC controls. 

 

Just out of curiosity, what bulbs did you put in your dash?

Yes sir, it's for the '64.

 

Replaced the dash lights with 194 bulbs and they are beautiful, and the shift indicator with 1816 (followed Jim Cannon's post). I just have the clock to go tomorrow, and the hvac bulbs.

 

How do I remove the hvac controls? Asking before trying since I'm very careful with this car because it's too mint and original, and I tend to be heavy handed

[KongaMan]

First, get a hammer...

 

Pull the console cover/ashtray.  It may also be easier/necessary to remove the center AC vent.  IIRC, there are a couple of screws in the ashtray compartment.  Take them out, and pull out the ashtray itself. The whole thing will pull up from the bottom.  It doesn't pull straight out; it kind of pivots, then when the bottom is clear you can pull it down and away.  At this point, you have the cover off.  It's probably still got wires attached for the lighter and ashtray light, so don't pull it too far up.  The AC controls screw into 4 tabs on the inside of the console.  Remove those screws and you can move the controls around.  Again, the controls have all kinds of hoses attached, so be careful you don't accidentally pull one off.  And be careful of those tabs; they've been known to break.

 

Good call on the lamp upgrade.  I did that 10 years ago.  I give it a thumbs up.  I even tried to get goofy by trying both blue and amber 194s in the dash.  I thought at least one of them would be cool.  It wasn't.

Edited October 29, 2016 by KongaMan (see edit history)

[96roadmaster]

Thank you very very much! Now I can't wait to get on it tomorrow!

Doing any repairs or upgrades on this car make me so happy. Thanks again!!!

[Schmiddy]

That's what I did few weeks ago... I changed every single bulb of my 65 interior with warm white LEDs, looks great and I couldn't imagine that it would give that nice atmosphere in the car! 

First I tried normal white, wich was defenetly a too cold light (brrr, like in a ice cave ??). But now with these special ones its just perfect.

Ed gave me the cool hint to change the bulbs behind the colored areas of the dashboard with LEDs in the same color... radiance became fantastic!l

Only inconvenient to me is that the dimmer is not smooth infinitely variable any more, but I don't care, light was always on maximum aniway, so...?? I guess, with the right swich, you could dimm in 3-4 steps.

Have fun with your new bulbs! ???

Edited October 29, 2016 by Schmiddy (see edit history)

[rodneybeauchamp]

Any chance you could list the part numbers of the LED replacements used and where they went?

[96roadmaster]

After reading Shmiddy's post about the LEDs I ran out and tried a few LEDs I had laying around on the Rivi. WOW! I loved it, loved the brightness, so I just sent an email to my lighting guy asking for everything. I also mentioned dimmable, but not sure if that's a possibility. Should get all the parts within a week!

 

The ones I asked for are 194 wedge bulbs for the two major buckets (total of 6), 1816 for the HVAC, clock and gear indicator (total of 6), and BA9S for the radio. Please cross-check the part numbers though as I've been known to err here and there

 

Not bothering to swap the idiot lights as they don't need LEDs in there.

[Schmiddy]

Oh sure, here the informations of what I've bought on ebay... If more information is needed, I'll give them when I'm back from my holidays. 

 

What I can provide right at the moment:

LEDs for interior - all found and ordered in ebay (products mostly from China -> fast delivery, good quality, 0 shippingcosts. US can provide same products but for me to Switzerland much too high costs - about 10-15x higher ?)

White lights for the dashboard

Lights for breaks, oil, temp, AMP

Lights for cold

Lights for turn right/left

Light sockets for courtesy light (and all BA15D LED bulbs)

Lights to plug on socket for courtesy lights 

Lights for clock, hvac, glovebox, lighter front and all other BA9S bulbs

[KongaMan]

IMHO, switching to LEDs (where feasible) is advisable for three reasons:

- Lower current draw through the wiring and switches.  This can, for example, keep your switches from pitting.

- Less heat, which means lenses are less prone to become discolored, warp, or break.

- Brighter lights.

 

"Feasible" is the key word.  The possible drawbacks are cost, light color, uneven dimming, dispersion pattern, and direct interchangeability.

 

In a similar vein, replacing the stock headlight harness with a new, relay-driven harness will save your light switch and give you brighter lights.

[RivNut]

Another drawback to running LED's is that they create no resistance and are therefore not usable as turn signals because they won't activate the flasher.

[telriv]

Need an electronic flasher.

[RivNut]

Most suppliers of the LED bulbs will sell you a resistance device that you install in line with each bulb; which can get expenzive. Tom's way is much easier.

[KongaMan]

It's not clear that LEDs work for many of the exterior lights anyway.  If you think about it, many of those lights get their effective size from the reflective surface of the fixture.  That is, a single incandescent bulb shoots light out in all directions.  Some of this light gets reflected back out, which makes the light appear much larger than it is.  In contrast, many LEDs are unidirectional; they shoot light straight out in one direction (like a flashlight).  Imagine shining a flashlight straight out of your parking light or straight up through the socket hole in the bottom of the taillight.  You're not gong to get much useful light out of that.

 

It's true that they are coming out will more multi-directional and horizontally projecting LEDs.  Whether they're suitable for a 1st gen taillight is anybody's guess.

[RivNut]

They're out there.  The nice thing about them is that they also come in red.  Red LED bulb behind a red lens and you're going to put out a lot of really bright light.

[KongaMan]

Yeah, but at $11 per bulb plus the new flasher or 4 load resistors, this is about a $50-60 roll of the dice to do all 4 turn signal bulbs.  Even if you just do the rear, you're out ~$35.  Not saying it's not worth it if you know it's going to work, but I've yet to see any glowing testimonials for this particular application.

[RivNut]

 

$12.99 / pair

 

 

11.95. for an electronic flasher

 

$25 will buy me a lot of security just knowing that the car behind me can see me.  Leave the fronts as they are.

 

Ed

[KongaMan]

There are definitely many replacement LEDs from which to choose.  The fundamental question remains: do they work?  That's the unknown here.  Theoretically, they could/should.  But the last time I looked into this in any depth, reports were mixed: they're weren't bright enough, they didn't disperse light well, they burned out fast, they were great.  You pays your money, you takes your chances.

 

One might suppose that as the bigger players (Sylvania, Philips, etc.) make a bigger push into the market things will improve.  At some point, they'll have it figured out.  Are we at that point now?  I dunno -- but there are still a lot of negative reviews on Amazon et al for these bulbs.

 

BTW, one might be a bit cautious about getting bulbs that are too bright -- you don't want someone to think that you've got your brakes on all the time.  If you're really worried about a following car knowing that you're on the brakes, it shouldn't be that hard to mount a center brake light to the rear window.

[jsgun]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:44 PM, Schmiddy said:

Oh sure, here the informations of what I've bought on ebay... If more information is needed, I'll give them when I'm back from my holidays. 

 

What I can provide right at the moment:

LEDs for interior - all found and ordered in ebay (products mostly from China -> fast delivery, good quality, 0 shippingcosts. US can provide same products but for me to Switzerland much too high costs - about 10-15x higher ?)

White lights for the dashboard

Lights for breaks, oil, temp, AMP

Lights for cold

Lights for turn right/left

Light sockets for courtesy light (and all BA15D LED bulbs)

Lights to plug on socket for courtesy lights 

Lights for clock, hvac, glovebox, lighter front and all other BA9S bulbs

 

This is exactly what I needed. Thank you!

[jsgun]

I put a LED taillight kit in my mustang a few years ago. White lights on a circuit board, that gave sequential turn signal lights too. Amazing difference in brightness, it was worth every cent. The originals were so dim I was worried about getting rear-ended at night.

 

I'm seriously considering the same thing for my 64:

http://www.easyperformance.com/products/product-detail/id/EPF-CST10-RIV63/name/1963-riviera-sequential-tail-lights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0MimA81NJY

 

[jsgun]

While researching bulbs, I found this: https://www.superbrightleds.com/carbulb_notes.php

 

Click on "Which bulbs are used in my vehicle?" and put it your model. It had a list of bulbs for the Riviera.

[96roadmaster]

Update time!

Got the rest of my bulbs today in the mail and I'm pleased with them. Will take a pic tomorrow for you guys. Just need to do the ignition switch bulb since that's the only one that doesn't match in color now. I went for a pure white...but that's just my personal preference.

 

The only bulb I haven't done yet is the radio. Would rather not pull the radio but I can't find the bulb socket yet. Will try again tomorrow.

[RIVNIK]

Questions:     Where can I obtain the 194 & 1816 bulbs for the instruments & shifter?   What type bulb is used for the HVAC controls?   Are they suitable for my 65?    Are the instrument cluster lights accessible from underneath, or do I have to pull the cluster or dashpad?  Thanx DREW

[RIVNIK]

Hey Roadmaster, were you talking about LEDs or brighter than stock incandescent bulbs. I want to stay as original & inexpensive as possible, but my dash lights have always been very dim, & the HVAC & shifter lights are barely visible.

[96roadmaster]

Hi Drew, I first bought a set of 194s from Amazon. They were brighter than my tired 168s but they weren't that much brighter. I had some leftover LEDs around after doing the Mercedes so I popped those in. So much brighter! It's a huge upgrade in lighting output even over the 194. So I bought a complete LED set and got to work on those. I'm entirely happy now.

 

Instrument cluster bulbs are accessible through the two small access doors under the dashboard. The hardest one to get to is the top bulb of the speedometer. I don't know if there's an easy way but that was a killer.

 

jsgun's link is super helpful when ordering bulbs. I referenced them on the website but bought my sets from ebay. Just need to figure out how to get to the radio's bulb now.

Edited February 5, 2017 by 96roadmaster (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

If I've tabulated all of this correctly, there are three different bulb styles used in the interior of the 1st gen Riviera; BA9S (single contact miniature bayonet), BA15D (double contact bayonet), and wedge. Furthermore, not all of the BA9S or wedge lamps are the same; different applications use different lamps (some are brighter than others).  However, it's not clear that LED replacements can duplicate that specificity; it seems that the LEDs are one size fits all.  In a way, that makes it easier: match the base, choose the color, and you're done.

 

With that in mind, for a complete replacement of the interior bulbs you would need:

- dash: (6) wedge
- clock: BA9S
- hot/alt/oil: (3) red wedge ^[1]
- cold: green wedge ^[1]
- parking brake: red BA9S ^[2]
- signals: (2) green wedge ^[1]
- high beams: red wedge ^[1]
- IGN switch: BA9S
- cruise: BA9S
- radio: BA9S
- HVAC: (4) BA9S
- front courtesy: BA15D
- front ashtray: BA9S
- front console: (2) BA15D
- shift indicator: BA9S
- glove box: BA9S
- rear courtesy: BA15D
- rear ashtray: BA9S ^[3]
- sail panel: (2) BA15D

 

If I haven't missed anything (have I?), that means you need 6 white wedge, 4 red wedge^[1], 3 green wedge^[1], 12 white BA9S, 1 red BA9S^[1,2], and 6 white BA15D.

 

^[1] The original bulbs are white behind colored lenses.  I opted to use colored LEDs instead.

^[2] Is this right?  The manual specs an 1881 bulb (BA9S base) but all the other warning lights have a wedge base.

^[3] Is there a light on the rear ashtray?

Edited February 7, 2017 by KongaMan
change to 4 HVAC bulbs (see edit history)

[96roadmaster]

KongaMan, you're exactly correct. I found all 3 bulb types when pulling them out, and replaced with the wedge and BA9S. I like the HVAC and gear indicator as bright as possible to match the speedometer bucket, and it's pretty near now. Didn't get a chance to shoot a pic last night because I got home late, but will put one up tonight.

I didn't do the idiot lights since I like the soft dim of the originals, and I didn't care to deal with resistors for the turn signals. So the only bulbs I'm replacing are the constant-on ones.

 

Would you happen to know how to get to the radio bulb? I can't find the darn thing and am reluctant to pull the radio out to get to it.

 

After doing the dash now I'm wondering why I didn't do the courtesy lights. So I'll be ordering that set tonight too!

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, 96roadmaster said:

Would you happen to know how to get to the radio bulb? I can't find the darn thing and am reluctant to pull the radio out to get to it.

 

I hate to tell you this, but I think that the radio bulb is inside the radio: you have to pull it out and take the top cover off.  I also seem to remember that it's fixed brightness; it comes on when the radio is turned on, and it's not connected to the dash light dimmer.

 

I'm trying to remember how to pull the radio.  I can't remember if you have to remove the bezel around the HVAC controls to get to the screws that hold radio face plate in place, or if the faceplate is held in only by the screws on the center vent.  Remove those screws (if you must), remove the vent, take the knobs off the radio, and remove the nuts from the shafts.  The face plate should then come off.  There are two screws through the dash bracket into the bottom of the radio.  Remove those and the whole radio comes right out. 

 

1 hour ago, 96roadmaster said:

After doing the dash now I'm wondering why I didn't do the courtesy lights. So I'll be ordering that set tonight too!

 

You might want to check the amount of room inside the courtesy lights before you order.  Some of the LEDs are longer than the bulbs they replace, and if you need an adapter they might be longer still.  At some point, they won't fit.

[96roadmaster]

Took a picture for you guys to help you see what it looks like:

 

 

The set I got is 6000k in color so it has a tinge of blue, but that's how I wanted it. They also make LEDs in the stock 2700k yellowish hue, and a 5000k pure white. It's all just preference, they brightness is the same.

 

Thank you KongaMan for your help. Toyed with the car some more last night and decided not to do the courtesy lights. I don't feel comfortable taking apart 50 year old dome lights/lenses in fear that they'll crack. So I'm going to just leave the lights alone. Will get to the radio this weekend though.

[KongaMan]

You won't have any trouble seeing those at night.

 

Questions:

- How well does the dimmer work -- if it works at all?

- Did you try different temperatures for the white LEDs?  I'm curious as to how much difference there would be.  I suppose they're cheap enough you could just try it and see; you only need 6 for the two main clusters.  Back when I swapped out my original bulbs for brighter 194s, I tried amber and blue bulbs as well (thinking one of them might look nice; neither did ).

[RivNut]

I had a Pontiac 6000 a number of years ago.  It had orange dash lights but used clear bulbs.  Bulbs don't make the color, it's the paint color that the cluster is painted that changes the color you see.  If you wanted orange dash lights in your Riviera  (not suggesting it) change the background color from the OE light blue to a fluorescent orange. 

[KongaMan]

4 hours ago, RivNut said:

I had a Pontiac 6000 a number of years ago.  It had orange dash lights but used clear bulbs.  Bulbs don't make the color, it's the paint color that the cluster is painted that changes the color you see.  If you wanted orange dash lights in your Riviera  (not suggesting it) change the background color from the OE light blue to a fluorescent orange. 

 

Hmm...  If the bulb isn't responsible for the color, wouldn't the stock lights be blue because of the plastic?  And what about the other lamps (ignition switch, shift indicator, radio, ashtray, etc) that aren't in the blue plastic dash?

 

All I can say is I put in different colored bulbs and the illumination changed color to match.  The issue wasn't that it didn't work (it did; quite well); it was that the resulting appearance wasn't appealing.

[RivNut]

I just know that when the dash lights were on in my Pontiac,  the ambient light,  guage markings, and needles were orange against black.  During the day, the needles and markings on the guage were white on black.  All of the bulbs were the clear bulbs that you get at your local jobber.  The light blue on the housings for the Rivieras is so light, there's probably not a noticeable color in the light you see, just enough so that it's not bright white.  If you look through the edge of the piece of plastic that shows which gear you're in, you can see that it has a blue tint built into it.  Back in  the day, all bulbs were clear, except for amber marker lights, so any color had to be from background or a colored lens.  

 

Now that you can get LEDs in color, anything is possible.  Don't ask me how I can chose the color of the dials in the Kenwood in my wagon, all I do is keep turning the knob until I get to the color I want.  

[96roadmaster]

 

10 hours ago, KongaMan said:

You won't have any trouble seeing those at night.

 

Questions:

- How well does the dimmer work -- if it works at all?

- Did you try different temperatures for the white LEDs?  I'm curious as to how much difference there would be.  I suppose they're cheap enough you could just try it and see; you only need 6 for the two main clusters.  Back when I swapped out my original bulbs for brighter 194s, I tried amber and blue bulbs as well (thinking one of them might look nice; neither did ).

 

The dimmer doesn't dim gradually, it dims in uneven "stages." That doesn't bother me though since I swapped to LEDs to be brighter, not dim them down. But in the future when dimmable LEDs are available I'll switch them again. I'm happy now regardless though. I tried a deeper blue first since I had those laying around from my other car but it was too much for the Riviera. So I bought a superwhite set and I'm happy with them.

In fact I had a few leftovers from the Riviera and got started on the 58 last night too lol. And I loved them, so I also just bought a set for that car.

 

5 hours ago, RivNut said:

I had a Pontiac 6000 a number of years ago.  It had orange dash lights but used clear bulbs.  Bulbs don't make the color, it's the paint color that the cluster is painted that changes the color you see.  If you wanted orange dash lights in your Riviera  (not suggesting it) change the background color from the OE light blue to a fluorescent orange. 

 

Ed, my 96 Roadmaster had white lights but would light up green. I took the cluster apart and the bulbs had a very tiny plastic rubber coating on them which gave it the color. I took apart the whole thing and my cluster turned white. I suspect your Pontiac was the same way.

[RivNut]

11 minutes ago, 96roadmaster said:

Ed, my 96 Roadmaster had white lights but would light up green. I took the cluster apart and the bulbs had a very tiny plastic rubber coating on them which gave it the color. I took apart the whole thing and my cluster turned white. I suspect your Pontiac was the same way.

Two different  scenarios.   I had to replace a couple of bulbs as well.  Clear bulbs, no rubber coatings,  just orange painted housings.

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

I just know that when the dash lights were on in my Pontiac,  the ambient light,  guage markings, and needles were orange against black.  During the day, the needles and markings on the guage were white on black.  All of the bulbs were the clear bulbs that you get at your local jobber.  The light blue on the housings for the Rivieras is so light, there's probably not a noticeable color in the light you see, just enough so that it's not bright white.  If you look through the edge of the piece of plastic that shows which gear you're in, you can see that it has a blue tint built into it.  Back in  the day, all bulbs were clear, except for amber marker lights, so any color had to be from background or a colored lens.

 

I believe the Pontiac has backlit gauges with a film on the back that imparts the color.  The numbers, lettering, etc. are painted with a translucent white coating on the front so they look white from the front in ambient light, but when the light shines through from the back, they're orange.  Which means that changing the color is a bit more complicated that installing colored bulbs.  It would be like trying to change the Riviera's high-beam indicator to blue just by installing a blue bulb.

 

On the Riviera, the light doesn't come through the gauge; it shines on the gauge.  As such, the color of the bulb will change the apparent color of the gauge.

 

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

Now that you can get LEDs in color, anything is possible.  Don't ask me how I can chose the color of the dials in the Kenwood in my wagon, all I do is keep turning the knob until I get to the color I want.  

 

I'd guess they use multi-color LEDs.

[RivNut]

Kongaman,

 

I don't know what else to say.  I was there. I took it apart. I saw what I saw.  I guess was hallucinating.  Thanks for being there with me and letting me know that I didn't see what I saw.  Maybe your 1981 Pontiac 6000 was built at a different assembly plant than mine or better yet it came from a different planet.  Damned parallel universes. 

[KongaMan]

Digression aside, the point remains that if you want to change the color of the dash illumination in the 1st gen Riv all you have to do is change the bulb color.  That's it.  It's simple, and it works.

[KongaMan]

7 hours ago, 96roadmaster said:

The dimmer doesn't dim gradually, it dims in uneven "stages."

 

That's good to know.  I like the option of having brighter lights, but I also do a fair amount of rural driving (that is, with little ambient light).  In that situation I prefer to have the dash lights dimmed a bit so I can better see the road with having two spotlights staring at me.

[96roadmaster]

The lights aren't bright enough to be obtrusive at all. I live in a dimly lit area and the dash lights do not bother me, but your preference may be otherwise.

 

For $10 it was the cheapest update I've ever done on any car.