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CCCA judging standards question


1935Packard

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Mr. Hartmann, you excel at circular logic and begging the question.  You repeatedly mention "education."  For adults who have finished their schooling and are thus in various forms of human endeavor, including judging of automobiles, EDUCATION is the responsibility of MANAGEMENT--in this case, the CCCA Board of Directors.  Gross failures in judging, including those previously cited, are the failures of CCCA MANAGEMENT.

 

Generally, I believe, marque specialists will find many authenticity issues that will be missed by generalists.  But in the example I cited several posts previous, how can any competent judge fail to recognize a 1950s (Chevrolet 6, I think) downdraft carburetor on a mid-1920s Pierce-Arrow?  BTW, the car is on eBay if anyone wants to review the photos and the owner's claim of a very high score at a CCCA Grand Classic sponsored by the Michigan Region.  That region has some of the Biggest Dogs in CCCA, and is far from being a small, inconsequential backwater inhabited by slackjawed mouth droolers, as you seem to suggest. 

 

I am a CCCA national and regional member, having first joined the national club in 1969.  All but one of my cars are CCCA-approved Full Classics, acquired because they interest me, not because I sought the cachet of the Club.  Two were not CCCA-recognized when I acquired them.  I  participate in my Region's activities but have not participated in national events other than one CARavan--which I enjoyed.  My 1930 Pierce was third in class (DISTANT third, I'll admit) at Pebble 2010 despite a 10-year-old restoration and 7,000 touring miles.  I DRIVE my cars.

 

I sincerely hope that the CCCA Board will engage in some critical self-examination as to their judging rules, which need careful definition of terms (as has been pointed out) and review of undesired consequences which have resulted from exploitation of loopholes and fuzzy definitions in their existing form. 

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Guest shinyhubcap
1 hour ago, Grimy said:

 

I sincerely hope that the CCCA Board will engage in some critical self-examination as to their judging rules, which need careful definition of terms (as has been pointed out) and review of undesired consequences which have resulted from exploitation of loopholes and fuzzy definitions in their existing form. 

 

 

Any chance you could come to our National Meeting in Reno next March ?   Could you bring with you your suggestions as to specifically which of our traditional Judging Rules, Proceedures, etc.   you think could stand change and/or improvement ?

 

I have been in our Club a wee bit longer than you - I can say without reservation we are a fun-loving (occasionaly a bit too rowdy with our cars)  group  interested in supporting our Club.  What  rules, traditions,  SPECIFICALLY do YOU suggest we could do to make our Club better - better fulfill our quite different and unusual mission ?

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Here's a link to the Pierce Arrow mentioned above.   It scored 99 points at the Michigan Grand Classic this summer.  

I don't feel bad posting this since the car is actively being offer for sale on a public forum, so that makes it open to our criticism.   

 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Other-Makes-Pierce-Arrow-Series-80-Roadster-/201694960122?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2ef5f4d9fa:g:WeIAAOSwNRdX~try&item=201694960122

 

Now I've never seen this car in person, but from the photos on the e bay listing it's looks to be pretty nice, the biggest glaring flaw is the incorrect carburetor & air cleaner.  I guess the question begs, how many points should be taken off for this?   1?  2?  3?   5?   If the judges each took one point off for the carb, and nothing else, then there's your 99 point score.   Per the latest CCCA Classic Car, the car happened to be the only car in its class, so even if it only scored 95 points, it still would have been awarded a first in class and gotten a senior badge.  I'm not a Pierce expert, but I do think the vacuum tank should be painted black, the priming cups should be nickel plated instead of bare brass, and I'm a little confused on the plumbing of the vacuum tank to the carb - I wonder if he's just running an electric pump through the vacuum tank.  The exhaust manifold looks a little rough too (deep rust pits by the flange) but if reproductions have not been made, you may be stuck there.  There appears to be a gauge hanging down under the dash which I'm not sure is correct.   The screws holding the taillamp rims on do not appear to be plated - they're bare brass - and - are two of the rims on upside down?   The screw holding a taillamp rim on is usually on the bottom, not the top.  I would also think the spare tire lock and hood latches would have been nickel plated instead of bare brass too.    I know some the things I've listed are nit picking, but I see a 95 point car here, not 99.  Overall it is a very nice car, and it wouldn't cost much to fix most of the things wrong on it.  I certainly would love to own it (I would put blackwall tires on it and lose the Pierce script on the back though).     

 

 

 

   

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Using a "generic" eye, I see about nine points off, applying my Pierce background, and I am NOT a series 80 & 81 expert I see sixteen points. Many could be fixed for little or no cost except labor. If one fixed all the obvious hardware,parts,trim,etc issues, then I would think I would score it 95 at best from the photos. It's a very nice car, I would own it and drive it. Price seems in the area of some current sales. Ed

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On 10/20/2016 at 3:58 PM, Matt Harwood said:

There's a new head judge in the CCCA; he's a smart guy and a very experienced person within the hobby. He is proposing some judging changes that will both streamline the process (there are something like 70 line items on the current judging form) and hopefully improve the quality of the judging, which I think is a problem as it stands today. It's what I call "trophy creep," which is a way of saying that there are an awful lot of high-point cars running around with big awards that maybe they don't deserve. All clubs are full of buddies who don't want to go too hard on their friends' cars, or judges are inexperienced, or there's simply not enough time to properly judge a car (I'm always the last guy because I take my time and I frequently feel pressured to rush through it). Regardless of the reason, the CCCA is cranking out a stunning number of very high-point awards and an even more stupendous number of 100-point cars. To me, 100 points is an unachievable number, yet every issue of the "Classic Car" is full of 100-point Classics, sometimes multiple pages of them. I personally find it hard to reconcile the quality of, say, Judge Cassini's Pebble Beach-winning 1934 Packard Twelve Victoria, which I judged at the Annual Meeting last year, and the 1941 Packard at the Ohio Grand Classic in August, both of which scored 100 points. I know for a fact that the 1941 Packard has at least ten thousand tour miles on it. They cannot both be 100 point cars. They may both be first place cars, depending on what else was in the class, but 100-point perfection is a worthy goal that is not, in my opinion, achievable.

 

To be honest, I disregard most awards aside from marque club awards (sorry, AACA, that includes you), simply because they're beauty contests, not arbiters of accuracy, and even at that, most judging is a rush job simply due to the volume of cars. Worse yet, I think there's a lot of pressure on judges to deliver high scores so that all the club members can have a good feeling about an event. I specifically recall five or six years ago, going to my first Grand Classic with my 1929 Cadillac and the organizers asked me if I was having it judged. Being someone who doesn't really care about trophies, I said, "No, I don't want to waste the judges' time, I know it's an 85-point car." Their reply? "Don't worry, we'll make sure you win." Well screw that, I really don't want to win now. Even with "impartial" strangers judging my car today, I bet I could get more than 95 points and a first place at a Grand Classic with a modicum of minor touch-up.

 

I am probably digging my own grave here because my name is on this post and other club members will see it. Once you're known as a tough judge, life changes within the club and my reputation will probably be injured. I don't particularly care, because I think integrity matters and it does a disservice to the club, the cars, the owners, and the restorers to hand out big awards like candy, but that's apparently the way most folks like it. I'm hoping that the new head judge feels the same way. To me, it's embarrassing that one recent Grand Classic had 22 out of 69 cars score 100 points. That's not indicative of the quality of the cars, it's indicative of the quality of the judging and the club itself.

 

All that said, the Cadillac in question is a nice car. It's owned by my former business partner and I've seen the car in person on several occasions. It's quite nice and well-sorted, although I believe it's a V8 car ordered on the longer 12-cylinder chassis, so it's a big car with less power. I don't think the body has ever been off the frame, so it's scruffy underneath. However, I also think it's priced appropriately for what it is. It also very clearly illustrates the fact that CCCA judges are not willing to soil their trousers by kneeling on the ground to look under a car and often don't have the time to do so anyway.

 

I'm not criticizing the clubs or judges specifically, I just that I think things should be tightened up and held to a higher standard. I think the new head judge feels the same and changes are coming that will help. I hate that I have to keep my head down because I care about quality and integrity. I'm glad I'm not alone and hopefully revisions will make the awards that much more prestigious.

Matt: I have 230-some credits for judging in AACA.  I have to disagree with you on your comment about beauty queens and a push for winners. There may have been a time when that push existed, but in my experience AACA bends over backwards to achieve the finest quality judging there is.  That said, they do not nitpick cars like some of the marque clubs.  For example they do not require the paint color match the vin plate, but only that the color have been available to the buyer when the car was new.  The same is true of accessories.  They must have been available from the dealer.  On some much older cars, there are some accessories that were grandfathered long ago by people the age of my father...and I'm 78.  I've now graduated to the National Awards Committee, and I will tell you that at that level the judging is very tight.  Can mistakes be made?  Of course, because not everybody knows every single detail about every car.  For example, I remember a very long time ago when a 1939 Buick Special won a National Award showing stream boards (instead of running boards) but no rear fender rubber stone guards.  As a 1939 Buick expert (or, I think I am) I knew that with stream boards, rear fender stone pads were standard, but with rubber running boards, you couldn't have the stone pads on the front of the rear fender.  It was either one way or the other.  Of course that car isn't a Full Classic, and I know that.  It is just an example that comes to mind.  So, yes, sometimes stuff happens.  As to the question of CCCA judging, I know nothing at all about it....in fact I'm only a recent member.  But I will say you can't tell anything at all from a picture as to how good or bad a car is.  I've been burned once by pictures and will not consider a car again that I don't see first.  The only thing I have noticed is that I've seen cars that have won in the preservation class that have many changes from original to facilitate better drivability while on the outside nothing has been done.  It's just my opinion that a car is either all original or its not original.

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41 minutes ago, Dynaflash8 said:

It's just my opinion that a car is either all original or its not original.

 

I left something out.  AACA does have a class called HPOF (Historical Preservation of Original Features).  In that class the cars are not judged one against the other but to a percentage of originality.  Necessary repairs are allowed, but as I understand it if a person has to rebuild the engine, he is not to repaint it when he puts it back together.  I think he can clean it.  I think a fender can be repaired or a soft top replaced.  I had a 1935 Buick in that class some years ago, but some of the rules may have changed since then.  So the car does not win a 1st, 2nd, etc.  It is either certified or its not certified based upon that percentage.  If restoration/repair work exceeds the percentage it is not certified.  The Buick was certified with fenders repainted, and the top insert replaced.  Years before the Buick I had a 66 Chrysler that was totally original.  I cleaned and repainted the engine and it was not certified.  I never figured that out.  I've never judged that class and do not totally understand how it works.  If the car gets certified the owner receives a plaque to place on the car and a wooden board with inscribed name plate and then receives small update tabs until or unless it no longer meets the percentage.  

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Earl, your comments and your examples are incongruous. While I respect the AACA and their dedication to authenticity and originality, a club that covers every car ever made can't possibly be experts on every single one. Both your examples bear this out. A Buick Club judge would have noticed the issues on the '39 and the problems with HPOF are that "original" is sometimes hard to identify. Old isn't necessarily original. This isn't a defect or a problem with the AACA, merely the reality of being a club that covers all makes and models covering nearly a century of automobiles. Expertise in the minutiae of the cars is all but impossible, which is why marque clubs are the proper arbiters of authenticity. It wasn't a slight against the AACA or CCCA simply because of the magnitude of the job, but it does partially explain why cars that would score 85 points at a marque event are often elevated to higher levels at AACA and CCCA events (see the Pierce-Arrow mentioned above--experts easily spot the problems, CCCA judges didn't).

 

It's just the nature of the beast.

 

For that reason, when I am acting as a CCCA or AACA judge, I do consider matters of authenticity in which I have expertise (is the wiring correct, are fasteners, clips, and clamps correct, are the finishes proper for the era) but would I have spotted that the hood latches on that Pierce are supposed to be nickel not brass? Maybe, but in that era, it's hard to be positive--a few years later, yes, they should be chrome. But in those cases, we're instructed to give the car the benefit of the doubt, so I do. Without expertise on every single aspect of every single car, there is no alternative but to judge the quality of the work. Nobody can know all things about all cars.

 

My chief problem is that the way the rules are and the way the judging is and the way the competition is set up, perfection is ostensibly the goal. I don't know how else such things can be graded. Apparently Pete is making the argument that correct matters more than condition (I haven't read his posts, he's on my ignore list although I've received two PMs bringing me up to date on his comments) and that a fresh restoration and a used car can both score 100 points as long as they're correct. I'll admit that's what the CCCA's rules imply, particularly that video that they make you watch at every judge's meeting. But again, that's a pretty arbitrary standard, one in which all cars can potentially be 100-point cars. It doesn't reward quality, it just rewards existence. If the wiring on my '29 Cadillac is faded and dirty, but still correct, is that a deduction or not? And how does the guy with the perfectly restored car feel about it? I would expect a deduction.

 

In the same way that the Founding Fathers of our country envisioned citizen congressmen who would do their term and then go back home yet today we have lifers, the guys who wrote the rules of CCCA judging surely intended to support the driving of the cars and no penalty for such. In practice today, it has become a push for ever higher levels of perfection. Of course the cars are far better than they were when new and our idea of how they actually were when new is being erased. Perfection is expected and if you want 100 points, it had better be perfect. Whether that's what was intended, that's the reality. Reality is where we live, reality is where we have to work.

 

This has nothing to do with diminishing standards in judging and a lack of knowledge or experience or a desire to make the CCCA into a lesser entity, it has to do with the quality of restorations being produced at the highest levels. Cassini's Packard is the finest car I've ever judged. I couldn't find a fault on it. I really tried to because I don't believe in perfection, but I couldn't even find a half point deduction for a screw being the wrong type. Hell, every visible screw was perfectly aligned with its neighbor--is that a defect (over restoration) or perfection? I cannot, in good conscience, feel comfortable awarding a car with 10,000+ tour miles a score equal to Cassini's Packard, even if all its hardware is technically accurate.

 

Condition matters as much as authenticity and if the CCCA's judging and awards are to have any credibility at all, lesser cars cannot score 100 points. Whether that's what was intended originally is academic. That's reality today and that's what the awards are interpreted to mean: this car has been vetted by experts and found to be superior. Handing 100-point awards out like candy does nobody any good.

 

 

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Responding to my friend Matt Harwood: Without going to a dictionary I don't really know what you mean by incongruous.  I know absolutely nothing about CCCA judging, OK?  Nothing.  So I'll just respond to one or two of your other comments.  In my opinion, yes, authenticity trumps restoration.  If you  restore something wrong, and somebody catches it, tough luck.  On the other hand I agree with you that if the wiring is correct but it is frayed and dirty, that trumps authenticity.  I agree that no one person can know everything about every car.  I try to stay within Class 20C-26A in AACA because that has been my lifelong area of most interest, and most cars in that specific period were at least put together in a similar fashion.  Of course that doesn't mean a 38 Hupmobile doesn't have many differences from a '38 GM.  As to driven.  AACA has a Junior Class, Senior Class and a Preservation Class.  It has always been my view that you do the car to win when you are a Junior car....take it with a trailer if possible.  You need to score as close to 400 points as possible.  That continues to be your goal.  If you win, then you drive the car as little as possible until the next Meet and go for the Senior.  Once you get that, then you drive it as little as possible until the next AACA Grand National and you try for a Grand National 1st, then you protect it until you get a Grand National Senior.  Then you turn it into your tour car, if you wish, and just go for Preservations...350 points out of a possible 400.  That's how I treat my own cars.  There is also a Driver's Class where you can run radials, sealed beam lights before 1940, install A/C.  I think you can do almost anything except put in a modern engine (in most cases that seems to be a Chevy 350.  We've already talked about HPOF.

I only know about AACA judging, none other.  Some things can be judged as authentic or not by the year of the car; for example sealed beam headlight conversions prior to 1940, pressure radiator caps, AM-FM radio conversions or installations, on and on.  But, AACA holds judging classes at every show, and if you're a judge you have to attend at least one every year.  They also hold specific training sessions on specific subjects such as tire types, finishes, upholstery, etc. at every show, called Continued Judges Education.  So they do do the best they can to have reasonable judging of their multi-year coverage you're talking about.  Now, all of that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, which I know nothing about; that being CCCA judging.  Okay?  I guess you could say I believe in the AACA program after doing it and being a part of it since 1970.

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Matt without going to a dictionary I don't reall

Edited by Dynaflash8
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Guest shinyhubcap
1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

(I haven't read his posts, he's on my ignore list ........... I'll admit  what the CCCA's rules imply, particularly that video that they make you watch at every judge's meeting......... Perfection is expected and if you want 100 points, it had better be perfect. Whether that's what was intended, that's the reality. Reality is where we live, reality is where we have to work.......if the CCCA's judging and awards are to have any credibility at all, lesser cars cannot score 100 points. ...

 

 

 

I have no quarrel with Matt or his posts -  I think Matt has the right idea - if you don't like what the CCCA is all about,  avoid listening to explanations as to what the CCCA is, how it differs from other car clubs, and what its long-established and (down thru the years pretty much un-changed) rules are.   This is a hobby - not a religion - or is it...?     Matt is right -  why aggravate yourself ?   Restorer is right - if you can somehow get the power of censorship, why not silence those with whom you disagree ?

 

Matt is correct  - we do make all who are going to be judging at a CCCA event listen to our detailed Instruction Video.   However, I think it is a reasonable question to ask - if there are failures,  is that the fault of our  publications, our Head Judges and our event administrators,  Judging Rules, etc...?   

 

Or does this simply reflect many folks do not like or agree with what the CCCA is all about?

 

As Matt correctly notes,   our Judging Rules have caused some folks entering cars to be dissatisfied - and who can blame them?.  

 

Matt cites as an example that he personally is aware of -  a car that has been in service scored as high as a car that was "perfect". 

 

I agree - IF I were the owner of a car I'd spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on, and IF there was another car that closely resembled its condition, both cosmetically and functionally, to its condition when in service as a new car,  and IF I really wasn't "comfortable" with the historical purpose of the CCCA,  of course I would be furious if at a CCCA event CCCA Rules gave both vehicles the same points.

 

Another point Matt made that I agree with - yes, he is right -   we do require all who are going to serve on Judging Teams to watch our Instructional Video.  And of course it is tiresome if you are not "comfortable" with what we are about.

 

Isnt it ironic - so many in here feel the CCCA as presently constituted is obsolete ?  Yes...they are RIGHT !

 

Heck - even the cars we started this Club to preserve were obsolete when they rolled out of their respective dealerships !    The introduction  in the early 1930's of rubber engine mounts,  higher compression motors with short strokes and "high" (lower numerical final drive gearing)  pretty much obliterated the difference between the low priced car & "the unique, the first rank...the highest standard of excellence" that was the focus of our interest.

 

Yes, the car hobby public did "catch on" .....the word "classic".   As time went on and our Club grew...clearly there is some mystery (and some financial value) in calling things "classic".  These days, tt is getting harder and harder to find ANY product that isn't called "classic".   At the supermarket, I bought some CLASSIC potato chips, some CLASSIC macaroni salad to go with my CLASSIC coke....!        Who cares what words mean if you feel they will help promote something!

 

I strongly recommend people support organizations that reflect their views.  For example, some clubs call the 1941 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special I owned an "antique".   Why not ?  If you like the word "antique"!~

 

Words words word.....judging points....judging points.    Organizations use words for a reason.  Why not go with those organizations that meet your expectations...?

 

For example, why be bothered by the fact a 1941 Cad.  could have been ordered with automatic thermostatically controlled cabin temperature, including air conditioning,  multi-speed automatic transmission with "high speed" rear axle ratio,  power windows, pressurized cooling system, power seat,  hydraulic "internal expanding"  brakes on all four wheels, even a power radio antenna.... etc...etc.  ( if that is an "antique"....i wonder what we are supposed to call a pre 1920's Cadillac with its carbide generator powered headlights,   and external - contracting brakes only on the rear wheels....! ) 

 

Words...words.......shouldn't everyone seek out those organizations where they feel most comfortable with how words are used?  Who could deny if we had to get across the desert on an August afternoon at 90 mph.....which car would we choose...a 1931 Cadillac "Empress Imperial"  V-16 limo....or a 1941 Cadillac fully equipped.

 

Some Clubs use words....have the kind of judging rules that Matt would like to see.   I know...like Matt...I belong to them !

 

The CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA will have its next ANNUAL MEETING in Reno, Nevada late next March.    We hope for the greatest number of the cars WE call "classics" will be in attendance.    Hopefully,  we will have an outstanding turnout of our membership,  who will have an opportunity to express their views.  

 

If you are sincerely interested in what our Club is about,  and are already a member,  please come and express your views.  If you are not yet a member, and think you may be "comfortable" with what our Club is all about,  please JOIN and ATTEND !  Or at the very least, converse with your Region officers, who can relay your views at our Annual Meeting.

 

 

 

 

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