Pierce Arrow

[Guest shinyhubcap]

The photo of that travel trailer woke up some old memories. At one time "JB" would drive around in his Pierce, towing a Pierce trailer.  Brought it to our Grand Classic in Santa Barbara one year.  Would not be surprised if it is still in the Nethercutt Museum (Sylmar, Calif. )

[Grimy]

The pictured Travelodge is a Model A (19 foot can, identified by two roof vents) but has a tri-tone paint job and what appear to be 1936 Buick fender mounted parking lights as front running lights (not from the Pierce factory).  I had a one-hour conversation about ten years ago with the gent who found that photo among his late mother's effects. The photo was taken in Litchfield, IL, where the tall chimney still stood at the time of our conversation. His mother was one of the young women in the photo.

 

The Nethercutt Model A is similar but is not stock.  I crawled over and under it ten years ago with the permission of the then-curator. The Nethercutt Model A has a dropped Pierce front axle (about a 6-inch drop), presumably so they could fit Pierce auto wheels and hubcaps; accordingly, that trailer stands 6-8" taller than a stock Travelodge.  The Nethercutt trailer also has  a period Servel refrigerator and a darker, glossier (lacquer?) interior wood finish than stock which photographs beautifully but becomes oppressive after one has spent five minutes in the trailer. Stock Travelodges had independent suspension with NO axle--tubular leading arm and a 1/4-elliptic spring as a traling arm, making them tow beautifully without lurching, even over diagonal railroad tracks.

[trimacar]

Oh, showing Pierce ice boxes, too?  Here's mine, smaller than Ed's but I like it, took delivery at Hershey! Dates to 1880-90, before George N. Pierce started making bicycles.

[vintagerodshop]

I will play along. I have three Pierce Arrows. A 1915 model 38 Town car, a 1931 Pierce arrow Model 43 Dual windshield and a 1933 1242 Convertible Coupe.

 

[alsancle]

Nice, but I'm blinded by all the whitewalls.  Have you been able to drive the 1242 very much?

[vintagerodshop]

I have driven the 1242 a lot this summer. the 1931 i drove last summer and the 1915 I haven't had out yet.

Can't change tires on everything. as it is my universal tire bill is hefty.

[alsancle]

I hear you.  At 200/tire plus it adds up quick with dual sidemounts.   Give us some driving impressions for the three cars. 

 

Ed,  is Kirk's 1242 basically the same as the salt flats car?

[edinmass]

The 1932 car was a true Roadster, no windows. The 1933 car is the same, see the photos, the windows are clear. Notice the signature  of the driver on the door. Maybe we ca get Kirk to cut down his car like the Salt Flats car, and then he can put black walls on it. I'll kick in for the speed parts, as I have them on the shelf. Photo enclosed.

[jeff_a]

On 10/14/2016 at 8:20 PM, K8096 said:

This photo postcard advertising the subject car for sale was sent to my dad in October 1984.  Perhaps Ed can tell us where this car is today.   

 

I think I've seen other postcard views of antique cars in front of this building. Is it Case Western Reserve, or the Crawford Museum?

 

Since this new thread has pictures of Pierce ice boxes from the Victorian Era, I can't resist asking about another early product. How many 1-cylinder De Dion Bouton-engined Pierces are still around? I've seen one Pierce Motorette in the Pierce-Arrow Museum at Gilmore, and have seen photos of a couple more in the London-To-Brighton Run. Only one Peerless 1-cylinder Motorette has made it to recent times, last seen at Hershey about 1958. Thank you.

[trimacar]

Rats, when you said "Victorian Era" I thought you were going to ask about bird cages.  Geo. N. Pierce made bird cages early on, and while apparently no cage has his name on it, the glass food and water feeders did.  The ones in my Pierce memorabilia collection are dated 1874, cast in the glass along with his name.

 

Right now, there is 1 Motorette and there are 9 Stanhopes listed in the Pierce Arrow Society roster.

 

The Motorette of 1901-02 had the Dedion-Bouton engine.

 

The Stanhope of 1903-04 had a Pierce manufactured engine, although from pictures I've seen, while not identical, it appears to be a copy of the DeDion-Bouton design.  I've not studied them closely, and perhaps someone more familiar with them could clarify that.

 

There's a Stanhope in the Rhinebeck Aerodrome museum, I don't believe it's in the roster.  The car in the Pierce Arrow museum at Gilmore is a 1903 Stanhope.

[jeff_a]

Thanks, I didn't know the difference between the Motorettes and Stanhopes before.

[alsancle]

The 31 Catalog Customs were awesome.  We have two pictured already,  this is a third body style.  It just sold at Hershey.  Back at Pebble they had the Waterhouse and this car lined up back to back and they are pretty close to the same.

[alsancle]

And for comparisons sake the Waterhouse.   Ed,  can you tell the story on this one.  I'm sure you knew about it when it was in the chicken coop.

[K8096]

OK Ed, here we go.   Taken at the Ursuline College Concours on the Eastside of Cleveland circa 1986.    In the 1980's, a lot of people painted cars maroon/green/blue and silver.   Thankfully that fad has passed.   

 

 

[edinmass]

Jason, that 1933 convertible sedan photo is thirty years old, and not very clear. They built 60 of those bodies for the 1931-1933 years. Quite a few have survived, when that photo was taken I was a Cadillac guy, and would remain so for another ten years. I don't recall seeing that car in person, but it looks familiar so I probably have seen a photo of it somewhere.        After two minutes research I can confirm I have seen photos of it in the past, and the car is now  in a large collection in California. I spoke to the collection manager on the phone Monday last week. I will be stopping in to see the collection just before Pebble next year. Maybe I will get a chance to finally see it in person then.  Here is a interesting photo for you. I found this recently, and the Marque experts had not seen it before from what I have been told. Notice the white steering wheel. I have never seen one on a car of this vintage before.

Edited October 21, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[K8096]

I assume Randy knows which Derham Tourister it is though, right?    It looks like the running boards are lighter in color as well. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by K8096 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I didn't run it by Randy, as I don't have his email address. If you have it, please pm it to me.

Edited October 21, 2016 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 10/20/2016 at 9:23 PM, edinmass said:

Jason, that 1933 convertible sedan photo is thirty years old, and not very clear. They built 60 of those bodies for the 1931-1933 years. Quite a few have survived, when that photo was taken I was a Cadillac guy, and would remain so for another ten years. I don't recall seeing that car in person, but it looks familiar so I probably have seen a photo of it somewhere.        After two minutes research I can confirm I have seen photos of it in the past, and the car is now  in a large collection in California. I spoke to the collection manager on the phone Monday last week. I will be stopping in to see the collection just before Pebble next year. Maybe I will get a chance to finally see it in person then.  Here is a interesting photo for you. I found this recently, and the Marque experts had not seen it before from what I have been told. Notice the white steering wheel. I have never seen one on a car of this vintage before.

Cool Duesenberg photo

[alsancle]

On 10/20/2016 at 10:36 PM, edinmass said:

I didn't run it by Randy, as I don't have his email address. If you have it, please pm it to me.

It is also on page 49 of Olympian Cars.

[K8096]

Hey Ed,  I assume you know where this one is too.   1935 club sedan used in the 1973 movie The Sting.   

 

 

[edinmass]

Yes, I know the car. Just recently sold after spending many years in the same garage. I think there are five of them. I owned an identical example and sold it when I built my house. Photo enclosed. 

[alsancle]

From Parker's Packard's open house last Sunday.

[Guest shinyhubcap]

Just curious - anyone know what happened to the late Tom Spark's club sedan (was seen in a number of movies...!)

[alsancle]

On 10/14/2016 at 1:11 PM, alsancle said:

Here is a 32 LeBaron V12 Catalog custom barn find that Joe Bortz found recently.  It was pictured in the last Pierce club magazine.  I believe identical to the 31 bodies and one of maybe 5 built and 1 or 2 installed on the 32 12 chassis.  Since it is the short wheelbase I believe it is the 150hp smaller 12.

 

 

 

 

This month's Pierce Arrow Club magazine has a great article on this car.  You will need to spend 400k plus to restore it but I could see a Pebble Class trophy in the future.

 

[alsancle]

Did this one survive?

[edinmass]

Not that I know of, any background info on it?

[alsancle]

Weymann Fabric body so it was sort of a rhetorical question.   To my knowledge there are about 12 surviving Weymann's on any chassis.

[edinmass]

Chassis is 1929, I can tell from the early style hub cap. I have never seen these photos before, and ran them by my secret 100 year old PA mentor. He said they were cut up,about 65 years ago in the Buffalo area. Ed

[mike brady]

What a shame

[alsancle]

A Waterhouse roadster.

[vermontboy]

I posted this in a thread on the Buy/Sell forum. Perhaps it will be of interest to some here. Apologies to those who have already seen it.

 

My dad bought a 1933 Model 836 for $300 in Boston in 1960 and we drove it back to Rochester NY the same day (drove out Friday night, bought it Saturday morning and drove it back - made for a long day). When we went to put the new plates on the car we discovered why the owner wasn't concerned with their return - they were cardboard ! Pix is after a respray - the interior was in nice shape.

$300 bought a lot of car in 1960..

[alsancle]

So how long did it stay in the family?  I'm sure Ed knows where it is now.

[vermontboy]

Sometime in the late 60's. I was in college and my parents were getting divorced so I really am not sure of the exact year or how it was sold. I don't know whether he sold it to a local GVAC's member or if Bernie Weis helped locate a buyer.

 

I have an old registration and other information around somewhere although it might take a day or two to locate it.  It would be nice to know that it was well taken care of....he missed it in his old age, one of the few things he was sentimental about.

[vermontboy]

Finally found the information on my dad's Pierce-Arrow. Would certainly like to know if someone knows where it is - I don't have to know where - just that it's in good hands. It was a beautiful car..... information from a 1960 Massachusetts registration.

 

VIN               236S2276

Engine          1070440

 

Thanks

 

 

[trimacar]

1070440 is actually the serial number of your car.  It's not listed in the 2017 Pierce Arrow Society roster, although I'm sure it sleeps happily in a good garage somewhere, or at least let's hope!

 

The "VIN" number you give is similar to an engine number, but too many digits, it should be six digits with no letters, and be 235XXX or 236XXX.  According to the serial number, the engine should be in the 235XXX range, so it's possible it had a replacement engine.

 

We'll see if anyone else has any other information....

[Grimy]

David (trimacar) is correct that 1070440 is the "VIN" (actually, "serial number") of the car.  The 236S2276 is a body number:  2 is the engineering code for most 1933-35 8-cyl cars, 36 indicates 136" wheelbase, S = 5-p sedan, the first 2 (actually the body code would read 236-S2-246 on the tag) means "Salon" (deluxe) trim (s-1 means standard trim), and 246 is the sequential number among 5-p 8-cyl sedans (both standard and Salon) for 1933.

 

A *2005* master register of vehicles ever known to the Pierce-Arrow Society reflects the last owner being located in Toronto in the time frame 1997 and later.  In the comments section, "c. 1993 car restored as a 'rod' (mag wheels, etc)."  [What a shame!  A beautiful original car in your photos.]

 

The actual engine number recorded with PAS for this car was 236522.

 

Each year's PAS roster includes only those vehicles claimed by current members for that year.  Some owners choose not to list their cars at all.  Generally, only about half of the Pierce vehicles known to the PAS are listed in any given year's roster.

 

For 1930-38 Pierce autos, serial (chassis) numbers are seven numerals, engine numbers are six numerals. 1929-only engine numbers begin with A- but the serial is seven numerals like other years.

[vermontboy]

Greatly appreciate the information.  Ouch on the mag wheels, etc. Today we would not have painted the body - only the fenders (right front needed leading behind the headlight). But the body was absolutely beautiful. The rounded corners were just starting to rub through to the primer and there were traces of the original pin striping.  -0- rust car except for the one fender. Right rear fender had been filled a bit due to a crease. But lacquer was cheap and spraying was cheap ($75) - we did the rub out.

 

No wonder it is so hard to get the numbers straight on the older vehicles when they have to check the VIN - see copy of the Massachusetts registration.

 

[Grimy]

Glad David and I could help a bit. We can only hope that the "rodding" was limited to mag wheels.

 

BTW, the first two digits of each 1929-38 engine and serial (chassis) number identify the year, cubic inch displacement, and wheelbase.  This is a bit of an oversimplification, but it's easy to sort out if there's a different year engine installed.

[trimacar]

Ah, I forgot about the body number, thanks G......yes, shame if it's rodded, hate to see any Full Classic so treated, and Pierce is dear to my heart so bothers me even more....

[edinmass]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:06 PM, vermontboy said:

Greatly appreciate the information.  Ouch on the mag wheels, etc. Today we would not have painted the body - only the fenders (right front needed leading behind the headlight). But the body was absolutely beautiful. The rounded corners were just starting to rub through to the primer and there were traces of the original pin striping.  -0- rust car except for the one fender. Right rear fender had been filled a bit due to a crease. But lacquer was cheap and spraying was cheap ($75) - we did the rub out.

 

No wonder it is so hard to get the numbers straight on the older vehicles when they have to check the VIN - see copy of the Massachusetts registration.

 

 

I am fairly certain I know the car, and it’s current configuration. If it’s the car I am thinking of it wasn’t limited to just a wheel change. The car was Chevrolet powered, etc.