'31 Broken Valve Springs

[Tom M]

Pulled the valve cover this morning to check valve clearance and you would not believe how much slug I found in there. While cleaning out the slug I pulled out a piece of metal and at closer inspection I found the two rear valve springs broken. What amazes me how/why the car still runs?<P>Please any advice on where I should go from here will be much appreciated?<BR>Should I bite the bullet and due a Rebuild or just replace the springs?<P>Thanks<BR>Tom

[Guest]

make sure there REALLY IS a broken spring! That could be a piece left over from a previous fix that the mechanic did not remove. WHAT kind of engine r we talking here????

[Tom M]

PackardV8,<P>Per the owners manual it is a 320 cu.in. I can see that the rear valve springs are missing some pieces.<P>What I’m going to do is replace all the springs just to be safe. Any leads on where I can get a valve spring<BR>compressor would be much appreciated.<P>I will also be dropping the pan, which was recommend by the person (a very nice and pleasant individual to talk to) I talked to on the phone last night to clean it out and check over the crank and pistons.<P>Do you all think I should pull the head as the service manual states to clean the carbon off the valves and pistons?<P>Thanks,<BR>Tom

[Guest]

"PULL HEADS" TO CLEAN CARBON..?<P>As I explained to Tom in private, and will explain to you guys in here....that Service Manual recommendation dates from an era with incredibly "dirty" fuels and oils. It made sense when the "coke" left over from the combustion process would so choke up a motor's combusion chamber area, it probably wouldnt RUN more than 30,000 miles.<P>But that was then. This is today. LOOK around you...guys....we dont do "ring jobs" every 50 - 100,000 miles any more. Our modern fuels and oils are vastly superior to what was available back then. So of course it would be a waste of time to go "pulling cylinder heads to clean carbon" given today's chemistry.<P>I DO, however, recommend "dropping" oil pans on the motors of that day, at least every two years, just to clean them out. Those oil pans were LONG...and FLAT...unlike modern practice. As a result, the older design traps particles that get "washed out" during the oil drain process on modern cars.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Tom M]

Will one of these type spring compressors work for me?<BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849864281" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849864281</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849862796" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849862796</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850465346" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850465346</A> <P>Thanks<BR>Tom Malas

[Guest]

my guess is the Second one would be the best for general Flat head work. Someone else with Packard Flat head experience should confirm this for Packard specific applications.

[Guest]

do not pull the head unless it becomes necessary. Might be that carbon IS built up in there. Is there some reason to believe that there is such a problem???<P>By the way, modern fuels and oils WILL carbon up a combustion chamber especialy if there is a lot of blow-by coupled with very high heat conditions. The hi heat conditions probably do not apply to your Packard unless u run it hard out in the desert or something like that.

[Tom M]

PacardV8,<P>No carbon build-up that I know of. It was something I read in the service manual that is why I asked the question.<P>Thanks,<BR>Tom Malas

[Tom M]

Received the valve springs today. The springs are dual springs. Any pointers on how to install??

Thanks,

Tom Malas

[Tom M]

I have not had a chance to work on the car. We are in the process of finding a contractor to build/add on a garage to the house. Hopefully it will be completed by the end of October so I have a place to store and work on the car.

There is one thing I have to say to my wife is thanks for agreeing on adding an additional garage.

[Tom M]

Post deleted by Packin31

[Tom M]

Got the head off last night.

With the springs being broken on the rear cylinder it appears to have carbon build up. It also appears that the valve wasn't seating properly due to this build up.

How should I go about having the valves and block done?

Should I do the old lapping technique?

Tom

P.s. I will take some pictures tonight of the valves and head.

[Guest Albert]

You can use a heavy Wire brush on the grinder to the valves to remove the carbon off the valves then try lappin them inand see what happens if the contact area is still good and the seats come up you will be ok. Other wise have the block sent to a machine shop and have the valves and seats reground.

[Guest JT]

Tom,

Another alternative to recondition seats without removing block:

http://www.newayts.com.au/seatguiderest.htm

You could take your valves to the machine shop and have them ground to the desired angle, assuming they are in good enough shape, and hand cut the seats yourself.

[Tom M]

JT,

I looked over the site you posted above and I'm confused on how this tool works. Have you used one of them?

Tom

[Tom M]

Closer inspection I have some bad valves.

I have added some pictures to the Photo Post. Just waiting for Approval.

Should I bite the bullet and buy all new valves or just replace the ones that need be?

Tom

[Guest JT]

Tom,

The Neway tool uses a pilot that fits in your valve guide. The cutting head then fits down on the pilot and with a few turns with a tee handle the seat is cut. You can purchase any angles or diameter ranges you want and can do a three angle job in three operations. The cutting heads are made so you can choose two different angles per head, one per side, so for three angles you'll need two heads. It makes for an easier clean up doing an in frame job.

[Tom M]

JT,

The picture they have on their site wasn't clear to me. Thanks for filling me in on how it works.

Tom

[Restorer32]

In light of the bad valves I would consider removing the pan and checking the condition and clearance of the rod and main bearings before I decided on a course of action. "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is".

[Tom M]

I was planing on dropping the pan due to all the crude that has washed down from the valve bay.

I sure hope I don't have to do anything with the rod and bearings. Budget??????

[Restorer32]

You have a Packard and a budget? Is that possible?

[Guest]

Restorer: Some of us old Packard nuts don't exactly have deep deep pockets of cash to spend all at one time. I spent so much for the body work last year and now I have a set amount of money I am spending this year on the restoation of my Packard ie transmision work and a few other things. The way I figure it my Packard might be on the road in another two years.

[Guest JT]

Restorer,

I'm rebuilding my engine now with no budget and no deep pockets. It use to be $100 every time I turned around now it's $300 every time. Hey at least it's better than putting money in my retirement stock fund and watching it go down the tubes. Oh I forgot all of us Packard guys have lots of $$ <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Randy Berger]

Quote "I forgot all of us Packard guys have lots of $$"

All right, all right, which one of you guys has my share!

Between collecting trains, fixing the Packard, collecting 45rpm records, I'm hobby poor.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Tom M]

We just had addition added onto house to store my beloved Packard that has been in the family since '58. So see that is where I?m coming from on the budget.

Any leads on where I can get some VALVES????

Thanks

Tom

[Guest Randy Berger]

Tom, contact Egge machine in Calif. I don't like what I've heard about their pistons, but everything else is good. They should have valves for you.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Tom M]

Randy,

I did contact Egge to see if they had the head gasket which they do but I have not heard back from them on the valves.

Thanks for the info,

Tom

[edinmass]

I don't like the EGGE valves. The several sets I have seen from them show very poor workmanship, and they were much softer than the ones we took out. They were almost half as hard on the rockwell tester. I also agree the pistons are terrible, I have seen three diffrent pistons that were for three diffrent applications and they kept crumbeling skirts and pin bosses. Get your valves from a local disel engine shop and cut them down. Perkins valves fit my Pierce eight and also fit the packard if my memory serves me. I think I paid 12 dollaes each. Good luck, Ed Minnie <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Tom M]

edinmass,

Thanks for the info. I will have to see if I can find a diesel shop around the Chicago area.

All,

Why would the smaller valves be in worse shape then the larger ones?

Tom

[Guest]

I am guessing but I think that like on my "356" Packard engine the small valves are the exhaust valves and these valves are exposed to the exhaust flame hence are more likely to be burned. I would ask if you are going to try to adapt valves from a Diesel engine to look into sodium filled valves. Mercedes and others use sodium filled exhaust valves even in gas engines and these are more durable.

[Guest]

regarding PACKARD valves and pistons

The smaller valves are your exhausts - the larger are your intakes. We need a little more detail on what you mean about "bad shape". Are they just worn down from too many "overly enthusiastic" valve grinds ? Or are they actually burned. If you have signs of significant valve BURNING, I would suspect your mixture is too lean. After you get it running, watch for signs of over-heating of your exhaust manifold - the main mixture of ONE of the two makes of up-draft carbs. that COULD be on your car, is adjustable.

I have never used EGGE valves. On both my V-12 engines at over-haul time, I welded a "bead" of Stellite around the valve head, then had them ground. So far, so good ( I am being a little facetious here - "so far so good" ..means BOTH V-12's (one, an American La France V-12 (an 800 cu. in. over-head cam "monster" in my fire engine) the other, my Packard Twelve, were done many years and MANY MANY high speed cross-country "runs" ago without further trouble.

As for EGGE pistons, both of the above vehicles were re-fitted with EGGES. Same comment about durability.

Bear in mind there are "cast" and "forged" pistons. There is also a third type that Packard started using in mid 1937, (setting a trend which SOME manufactures started to copy) called the "thermo-strut" or "steel-strut" piston. Idea was to better control expansion rates - the steel strut pistons expand less, and thus can be fitted to closer tolerances. I havnt kept up-to-date on piston manufacturers - my own personal experience with EGGE is that everything I have received from them down thru the years has been top-notch.

SOME people feel the ONLY way to go, especially if the engine is going to be subjected to sustained extreme rpm/hi "load" ops, is forged pistons. Personally, I am not convinced - I beat the crap out of my engines - see above for my comments on the very satisfactory experience I have had with ordinary EGGE "cast" pistons.

Bear in mind that in long stroke engines like ours ( 5 " on the Packard eights and the American La France, 4 1/4" on the Packard Twelve ) pistons and connecting rods, con. rod bearings, etc, are subject to horrific stresses at high speeds with "stock" rear axle gearing. At 60 mph with stock gearing, your long stroke engine is thrashing itself to death with greater inertial loadings on the rods, pistons, and crank-shaft, than a modern engine at 100 mph. This is why we change the "final drive" ratio to get the rpm down, and re-machine the "big ends" of the connecting rods to take a modern "insert" type con rod bearing.

Yeah...money issues...face it...an old car is "a hole in the ground thru which you throw money....often...LOTS of it...! If you are having to "make do" with re-babbiting the con. rods, and, for the time being, can't afford to do anything about that "dump truck" rear axle final drive ratio, I strongly recommend you keep your road speeds under 45 mph.

45 mph sound too slow ? Think about the roads and driving conditions the car was designed for. Sure, it was POSSIBLE to go like a bat out of #)$(%$...by the early 1930's, people were crossing the continent in three days, meaning they were doing 70 and 80 on SOME stretches ....BUT...most people did not drive like that, and MOST roads were pretty rough and narrow. Some older sections of U.S. Highway 66 and U.S. Highway 40 were still in service when I first became aware of such things (early 1940's)..and let me tell you....50 mph was FLYING!

Want more technical info - here's another "plug" for the big PACKARD meet coming up at the end of the month - see Mr. Mitchell's "post" elsewhere in the Classic Car section. Rumor has it that just about all of the surviving Packard technical experts will be there !

[Tom M]

PackardBuff,

Here is a picture I have posted in the Photo Post

The carburetor is a linkhart. When I get a chance I will take a picture of it and post it. I'm not 100% sure which screw is for the mixture.

Thanks all for you help.

Tom

[Guest]

Great picture ! Yeah...that exhaust valve in the center of the picture (again..the smaller valves are your exhausts - this was typical of all Packard engines, and common in much of the industry) sure looks "burned" to me.

Horridly un-even mixture dispersal is typical of those long manifolds...but ..what puzzles me...is why it would be lean in the CENTER of the engine. Take a look inside your intake manifold...any casting flaws..leaks..?

The "crud" at the tops of your pistons are typical of a combination of old style worn rings, and the lousy "non-detergent" oils people throw in old cars to keep them running. Multi-grade modern oils wont "coke" up like this...anyway..modern rings wont let that much oil up into the comubustion chamber.

What makes you think you have to replace your pistons? Modern rings are VERY tolerant of even badly worn bores and pistons. If you use an "upper bore ridge scraper", to get the "ridge" off the top of your bore, you should be able to get all the pistons out without breaking a piston-ring land. If so, for now (since you indicated the "money tree" in your back-yard isnt exactly blooming....!)..if it was me, I'd just weld up those valves, and turn em down on a valve lathe. You can rent a valve seat grinder - just clean em up..dont grind your valve seats away - Packard used a pretty high nickle-content iron for their blocks..but dont push your luck....! Get a cylinder hone, and "break" your glazed cylinder bores. Any modern "service" set of rings will give you pretty decent oil control and good compression - just make sure the end gaps are correct for the specs. provided by the ring manufacturer.

Which reminds me. NEVER...use ordinary iron/steel rings in pre-war Packard engines...EVER. Reason...again..Packard used a high quality nickel iron for their engine blocks...stuff is HARD...so hard...its "co efficient of friction" is too dangerously close to that of modern cheapo rings. You MUST use "chrome moly" rings.

The real question is...when you get your connecting rods off....that could be a heart-breaker. If your car was run with bad rod bearings, you will have a ruined crank-shaft. You will need a good machinest to "mike" it for you and inspect it. Anything less than "factory specs" and NO rod bearing is going to last very long. Bad news....Packard, like many manufacturers, used "off-set" counter-weights...getting these off so the crank can be "ground" is a job for a specialty shop. IF your crank-pins arent TOO far gone, you can "get by" at SLOW speeds for a couple of thousand miles, on "poured babbit". Check in Hemmings - several people are doing this. Personally, I wouldnt waste the time or money - cheaper to "do it right" the first time - have a machine shop bore out your connecting rod "big ends" to take a modern bearing. I can no longer recall the bearing that can be used in Packard eights of your era...but with a little rummaging around in bearing "spec" books, you should be able to come up with one that will work - dont worry about the "flange" - it wasnt necessary - a bronze welded "tit" on the side where the flange was...will give you correct side-play control. The modern rod bearing you find..will probably be too wide - you will have to rig up a fixture so the bearing's width can be cut down - I use a carbide blade for this...keep water running over it so you dont over-heat the bearing shell and COOK the bearing material and/or warp the shell.

At the risk of repeating myself...come on to the Packard meet at GILMORE...you will meet guys who can give you ideas.

[Restorer32]

Just for reference: We recently had the main bearings and con rods rebabbitted and align bored for a 1937 Super 8. Cost about $1700 including removing and replacing those pesky counterweights. Re Packards and budgets...I have a '32 of my own which I can barely afford to work on. Luckily we get paid to work on Packards (and other makes) which we could never hope to own.

[Guest]

regarding "re-babbited" rod bearings in Packard motors.

I hope I mis-read the above "post". Hopefully, he had the MAINS re-babbited (this works fine) but did NOT have babbit poured for the RODS.

Packard worked with Federal Mogul to solve the problem of rod bearing burn-out, which was becoming epidemic in the early 1930's as road speeds (and thus bearing "loading" on those long stroke engines) increased. Beginning with the 1935 production run, ALL Packards had modern "insert" type rod beargings. Like so many other things Packard did trying to solve problems for its customers, it went "over-kill" - the new "insert" bearings were heavy duty "copper lead" (cad. silver was also tried) and thus resolved the rod-bearing problem forever.

My own personal view is that the invention of the modern "precision steel backed insert" for con. rod bearings, is one of the most important inventions of automotive era. Without it, modern durable high effieincy high performance engines would simply not be possible. I strongly recommend to those who are interested in the history and evolution of rod bearing engineering to go to a big city public library, where they are sure to have back issues of the SAE Technical Journal. The issues from the late 1920's and early 1930's make particularly exciting reading as you see the technology evolve. Incidentally, most of the articles are written in understandable "laymen's" language.

Buick and Chev. were able to "get by" with poured babbit up to the early 1950's. One reason is they bored the rod "big end" out so as to use a thinner layer of babbit, so that there was less of that soft material to "pound out", and better heat transfer to the rod. I am also suspicious that modern restoration shops do not have access to the higher quality babbit used in the old days....This may explain why cars of that era could get up to 40, - 50,000 mi. before an overhaul, and may explain why using poured babbit today on a fast, powerful luxury car, in anything but a "trailer queen" is an invitation to disaster.

Trying to "get by" with poured babbit is even WORSE in an engine orignally equipped with "insert' type rod bearings, as was the case in Packards of 1935 and later production. The "big end" of the rod was bored out at the factory large enough for the "insert" bearing shell. If THAT much babbit material is used to fill in the cavity where the steel-backed insert was...well.....let's hope this fellow's customer's car is the typical "trailer queen" of today's collectors, who have no interest in actually enjoying the cars as working automobiles. We know that a typical re-babbited con rod job these days in a long stroke Packard of that era is good for about 2,000 miles on the average before failure. And that is assuming it was done in a rod originally designed for poured babbit. Poured babbit in a rod designed for 'inserts'...? Again...sure hope I mis-understood the above "post"......!

[Restorer32]

As usual Packard you have your head so far up your own butt that you can't see daylight. No, we didn't rebabbitt the con rods...I was mixing up that engine in my head with a "32 we did at about the same time. As to your comment about babbitt only lasting 2000 miles. I suggest you speak with Pittsburg Crankshaft Service. I can't imagine how they could stay in business if babbitt were as bad as you say. Even today many pieces of industrial equipment used babbitted bearings, many of which endure harder service than any Packard ever did. But, of course, you are entitled to your opinions, this being America and all.

[Guest]

regarding "babbit" rod bearings: For Restorer

Glad to hear your "post" about your work on the '37 was a "mix up". And I do agree there are SOME situations where putting "babbit" in a bearing is an acceptable shop practice. If you are referring to the older "T" head engines (typically before the mid 1920's), where engine "red line" is around 1,200 rpm...yes..I would agree. But in "modern" high speed automotive engines (after the mid 1920's) subject to high rpm use......c'mon..man..be serious.... READ the technical papers. You seriously trying to tell us you think you know better than the engineers who design this stuff...?

Thanks for the note about PTTSBURG BEARING. If you have had satisfactory results their work, that suggests they have come up with a bearing material "mix" that works out (for some people..in VERY limited applications, I bet.)

As you may know, the reason poured babbit often fails after only short runs at high speeds, is its inability to transfer shock and heat away from the bearing surface to the rod itself. Hardened (usually referred to as "nitraded" crank-pins) and full-flow oil filters didnt start showing up until the early 1930's. As a result, users of "poured babbit" as a bearing material had a delicate "balance" whereby if they made the material too hard, dirt wouldn't "imbed"; instead..would tear up the bearing and the crank pin. And a too tough bearing material itself would cause too rapid crank-pin wear. Too soft a material...bearing "pounds out" / cracks up and "flakes" in short order.

Obviously, there is a reason why the practice of using "poured babbit" in rod bearings is gone forever from the automotive industry - last "poured babbit" rod bearings I am aware of were in early 1950's Buicks and Chevrolet. Think it was around '52. Dosnt matter..POINT is...given LOW engine speeds, and SHORT over-haul cycles, it DID work...just barely. In fact...one of our Buick fans noted in one of these chat-sites early that in a test when new, early 1930's (read "pre- insert rod equipped") Packards were good for about 2,000 mi. of high speed use before the rods went out.

I personally LOVE the old car hobby in general, and Packards and Buicks in particular. I hate to see some guy come into the hobby, and then find himself at the side of the road with a ruined engine, leaving him mad and disappointed, and then looses interest.

Properly prepared, an otherwise bone-stock old car, but with "insert" connecting rod bearings, and a high-geared rear axle, an electric fuel pump, and decent radiator, can be a source of good family fun. I bet you share with me the idea we should encourage people to get that old iron out on the road, where we can "talk it up" with people about how much fun and learning this can result in.

But ...arguing over this "poured babbit" bearing thing...? What is that ? That argument was killed dead by Packard and Federal Mogul, nearly seventy years ago ! ( someone told me Studebaker was actually the FIRST to use modern precision "insert" type rod bearings as early as 1932...or three years ahead of Packard...is that true.. ? )

[Guest JT]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Which reminds me. NEVER...use ordinary iron/steel rings in pre-war Packard engines...EVER. Reason...again..Packard used a high quality nickel iron for their engine blocks...stuff is HARD...so hard...its "co efficient of friction" is too dangerously close to that of modern cheapo rings. You MUST use "chrome moly" rings.</div></div>

The original Perfect Circle rings in my 40 120 to the best of my knowledge were of iron only or am I missing something?

[Tom M]

If I order new valves could I leave the old guides in or should I replace them also?

Was told that the guides are pressed in? How hard are they to get out?

Just got off the phone with an engine shop and they stated I need .001" clearance. So when I order new valves I need to mike the stem and seats to make sure I'm in spec.

I'm so confused and getting frustrated with all this!!!!

[Guest Albert]

The valve guides can be driven out and new ones driven back in and they should not be that expensive for the guides, the other choice is having them knurled and reamed to size. Having them reamed may incease the oil consumption a little bit more as we dont have any guide seals around the stems but they (stems)are now better lubed as the groves will retain oil better .