16v-Will Wonders Never Cease???

[mensanguy]

Remember a few seasons back Jagjet had a car he was trying to sell without much luck? Well, after much waiting, I bought the car last week!!

It really was a pleasant experience, and Jagjet and his family were true gentlemen and ladies.  Here's the rundown--It was bought for his mother when she was in her late 50's in 1989. Original owner.( I know-little-old lady, But it's true!!)  The car has  been garage kept all of its life, and it shows--it is as pristine as they get.  Not a scratch, nick  ding, or any signs of damage or aging on it.  Has been loved and pampered.  Has EVERY piece of paper and service/repair order since delivered. Dealer serviced always.  It's not like new, but pretty damn close.  Has the 16v engine and 5 speed. Even has the umbrella, tool kit, radio demo cassette, and original window sticker! Complete.

 

After delving into the paper trail, it seems that ( due to the owners aging) that the car was driven very little the last five years, and sat in the heated garage unused (plates expired June -2011).It was started up occasionally to keep the battery charged, and that's about it. I drove it March 2015, and reported that it ran badly because of bad gas, which was probably 6 years old.  That was the last time the car ran. It has been sitting  since then, and would not start  when I saw it again in April this year. ( checked trouble codes: bad distributor pickup) .  I bought the car, and had it delivered to my place. On a whim, I turned the key, and it started!!!!!  It sputtered, missed and ran rough until it warmed up, but it DID run! At that point, I cut it off, drained all the bad gas out of it, and replaced the distributor pickup. ( now-no codes at all!) along with oem  cap and rotor plus a new battery.  Put in a can of Sea foam and a can of Techroline along with a full tank of premium in the gas tank. Flushed the radiator ( clean and shiny inside) and an oil/filter change. Have been driving it all week to work on the freeway at 55+.

 

Here's the problems:  it wants to idle about 12-1500 all the time. It has missing/surging on acceleration, but will run steady at speed-although not that great. Turbo spools right up-it isn't shy! I am hoping plugged injectors are the cause. Has original wires on it.  Fuel and air filter  to be replaced this weekend. Everything else works 100%. No trouble codes. I remember the brakes were a bit squirrely, but they seem to be OK now, although the ABS light stays on constantly.

 

This car is a keeper- a rare find, and as Jagjet says- an unmolested survivor. I am open to any  and all suggestions on what to do with this rare gem. I want to keep it all original, but am contemplating doing the brake conversion.

 

What suggestions do you all have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by mensanguy
misspelled word (see edit history)

[Reaper1]

Nice find! Beautiful car for sure!

 

#1...replace ALL of the rubber fuel lines with the correct fuel injection hose! (you should inspect the brake hoses for dry rot as well)

 

#2 certainly replace at least the fuel filter

 

#3 it sounds like it has a vacuum leak...inspect the vacuum harness for any broken/split/disconnected lines

 

#4 you know these cars a bit it seems, so start looking for a replacement accumulator!

 

#5 what do the tires look like...not the tread, the rubber. Dry rotted?

 

#6 if the oil hasn't been changed...change the oil and the tranny fluid. It's been sitting a LONG time and fluids can get "nasty" over time causing other issues.

 

#7 flush the brake system. Brake fluid absorbs water over time...the entire system needs flushed to make sure it's fresh and no contaminates are in it.

 

#8 I know you just emptied the tank, but it might actually be a good idea to pop the pump out and take a look at it. I have seen a few cases (In personally had this happen on another car) where the gas attacks the plastic and rubber bits over the years of sitting and turns it into a gooey mess.

 

#9 lube the chassis points

 

#10 I know you said garage kept, but still check out the windshield washer system. The stupid little plastic tubes love to break over time and the fluid itself is slightly corrosive, so it might have eaten at the pump gasket making it to where when you dump new in...it pours right out!

 

I hope that helps some. The basic tune-up stuff and a general overall inspection is really the key. Taking care of the old/bad fluids and inspecting critical systems for proper operation and good condition is really what it comes down to. Then...drive, enjoy, fix stuff as it comes up!

[TwinCamFan]

Very cool survivor car, white with Ginger-Just like mine  Has me wondering if you have the back soft top or brown...  Anyway like reaper said I too suspect a vacuum leak.  The entire vacuum harrness is very 'inspectable' if you just look closely.  Most likely culprit is the main vacuum feed source into the four way that the exits the  underside of the intake manifold.  That piece softens and rots over the years.  Just closely inspect every part of the harness. Also, do all that stuff reaper suggested

[Hemi Dude]

Isn't that car Light Yellow rather than white?

[mensanguy]

You are correct. It IS light yellow. Lighting plays tricks on cameras and the eyes. It does look a little white though, doesn't it?

[TwinCamFan]

OK., just like mine then, Light yellow with Ginger 16V I still wonder what color top it is tho  I'll keep my fingers crossed for the much nice Hartz Fabric Black...

[mensanguy]

OK, I took your advise and did the following:

New dist pickup, rotor, cap, Magnecor wires, plugs, battery.

Replaced oil, fuel, air filters.

Oil change, ( synthetic)  radiator flush, pwr steer flush

Removed intake manifold, cleaned throttle blades. (while replacing ignition)

Replaced all fuel inj lines.

Thoroughly checked ALL vacuum lines and fittings, all tight and where they should be

Ran a tank of premium with  a can of injector cleaner  thru it.

Have a new fuel pump and oxygen sensor pending install.

I didn't check the timing--where are the marks??

Leatheriqued the hell out of the interior--it looks like it just came from the factory-almost. It's yellow...

There are no codes present other than 12 and 55

 

It runs a lot better now, but not that well.

It is very cold-natured, not running well when first started until warmed up thoroughly. Starts right up though.

Coming to a light, with the clutch depressed, the engine continues to idle at 1800 rpm for about 10-15 seconds

it will then drop to about 1100-1300, sometimes lower.

The idle is kind of rough, not as smooth as it should be.

Turbo works fine, it screams!

 

What have I missed??

[Reaper1]

Was the distributor pick-up a Chrysler replacement or an aftermarket one? Recently a few people have reported that they have experienced some aftermarket units that are built in such a way that they mess up the ignition timing.

 

In order to check the ignition timing, you have to be able to see the little window on the top of the transmission bellhousing, under the air cleaner box. So, yay...fun, you get to remove that mess again. (sorry about that, I know it's not "fun")

 

The engine must be at operating temp and you have to disconnect the coolant temperature sender for the computer. This will make the car idle a little high (normal), the "Check Engine" light will come on (normal), and the fan will come on (normal). Once the sensor is disconnected, then you can shoot your timing light at the hole in the bellhousing to see what the timing is. On the Masi, with the distributor under the intake...I gotta tell ya, I haven't even figured out how to set it with the engine running. My usual trick is to loosen the distributor hold down just enough where I can barely turn the distributor, then I can shut it down and tighten the bolt so I'm not futzing around with a wrench or whatever next to a running fan and all. With the filter box out of the way, you might be able to reach up under the intake to get at the distributor, but I haven't tried that.

 

Try that first and see what happens.

[Nile]

There are some expert mechanics on this forum - I am not one of them, so if any of them disagree with this - go with their opinions, not mine.  Sounds like a vacuum leak.  I know you checked them all, but our cars certainly have enough "opportunities" for vacuum leaks and yours has sat for a while, so who knows?

 

Regarding the synthetic oil:  I switched one of my 16v cars over to synthetic and was very pleased with the results so I switched another over.  That didn't work out so well as I immediately had some serious seepage in multiple places.  If that happens to you, you'll know right away.  I switched back to conventional oil and the floor under the car is dry again.  Car #1 has never had any seepage.

[TwinCamFan]

I'm with Nile, does sound like a vacuum leak somewhere.  Did you by chance check the charcoal canister? I've seen multiple pop-top failures there and then it's a vacuum leak as well as not functioning to collect the fuel system vapors.  Also the four way splitter under the intake manifold, lightly pull on those connections, if they are bad, the line will pull out. sometimes its a partial leak that sort of still connected.

[mensanguy]

OK, here's where I am now:

Replaced the thermostat.

Checked ALL sources of leaks on the intake manifold.

Re-set the timing using the proper procedure (Reaper- I loosened the distributor, and was able to "Turn/Finesse" it with a large screwdriver thru the intake manifold spacers to get the proper setting -12 degrees. )

Still high idle -1500rpm.

Only codes present are 22 -where I removed the cooling sensor during timing setting. Replaced it.

Now it gets technical--

There are three ( to my knowledge) vacuum ports on the intake-two fed from #1 cylinder area, and one from #2 cylinder.

 

I removed and sealed the #3 with tape- no drop in idle.

 

I removed #2 and sealed ( goes to PCV valve) no change

 

I removed #3, and made an adapter so I could run a line to the map sensor and keep the engine running--no change.

 

So now I have all three supposed vacuum ports sealed on the intake manifold, and the RPM's are still 1500 with the engine fully warmed up, and no other source of vacuum open, to the best of my knowledge and skills.

 

I am open to any and all suggestions.......

[Reaper1]

There are 2 vacuum ports on the throttle body, too...so check those as well. Next thing to do would be to use carb cleaner, brake cleaner, aerosol starting fluid...something like that, and spray around the throttle body gasket, and the head-to-intake gasket areas. At this point it's either a leaking gasket or something is up with the throttle body itself, whether it's a stuck linkage or the idle motor pintle not seating all the way...something is letting too much air in.

 

Dumb afterthought, but do you know that the tach is correct? They do get sticky over the years and can be inaccurate.

[mensanguy]

Ok, I checked the vacuum ports on the throttle body, and no change.

The tach is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

 

I pulled off the electrical connection to the idle motor with the motor running, and it made no difference.

 

Would this indicate that the idle motor is defective?

[Reaper1]

It's a possibility. I won't say it's a certainty. There is a procedure for "resetting" the idle motor, but I don't remember it off the top of my head. Hemi might know it. I'll see if I can find it and post it if someone else doesn't.

[TwinCamFan]

 

Ive been reading along this thread and your diagnostics you've been thru, youre quite thorough  I just had a thought tho, There is a manual set screw/throttle blade adjustment screw in the throttle body itself.  From the factory it has a small plug over it but once removed, the screw can be wound in which opens the butterfly blade. If its been opened, no other adjustments will lower the idle. Check it out.

[Hemi Dude]

On 11/4/2016 at 10:06 PM, TwinCamFan said:

 

I've been reading along this thread and your diagnostics you've been through, you're quite thorough   I just had a thought though. There is a manual set screw/throttle blade adjustment screw in the throttle body itself.  From the factory it has a small plug over it but once removed, the screw can be wound in which opens the butterfly blade. If its been opened, no other adjustments will lower the idle. Check it out.

To add just a little to this, if indeed the factory throttle opening 'setting' has been tampered with by adjusting the screw clockwise, in order to increase idle speed somewhere in the past, you might try turning the screw counter-clockwise in order to slow down the engine RPM. Do this slowly as the AIS motor will have to compensate for the throttle blade closing. When the RPM cannot be controlled by the AIS motor, the engine speed will decrease to the point where the blade is fully closed. You do not want to leave it there! Turn screw clockwise at least so the throttle blade is a little open. If you had a diagnostic tester available such as the Snap-On 2500, you could make a better adjustment. Let me know.  (That wasn't a little, after all)

[jagjet]

Hey my friend,

 

Thanks for the kind words, dealing with you was also a pleasant and fruitful experience. I can say I would look at that big chrome or polished hard line that enters the back of the cam cover as I had been able to reduce the idle speed by wrapping a shop towel around it. If it is false air getting in and not any other systems, it is unmetered air only at idle and should not have too big an effect off idle. But I would still check the O2 sensor readings to rule out a lean condition off idle.

 

I wrangled that car until 1995 when I moved to Florida for a new flying job. I made sure it got V-power and went to the dealer for its care. You should have the window sticker as well.

 

I'm glad it started for you but you were still going to do what you have mentioned anyway. According to the Production figures the color of the top can have am impact on rarity of the car. Numbers were very low for 5 sp Maser powered cars.

 

All the best

 

Robert

 

PS the book indicates the source of the ABS light as electrical so check condition of ABS wheel sensors and tone rings for issues. Enjoy you got a nice one !       

Edited December 10, 2016 by jagjet (see edit history)

[mensanguy]

Found the problem!

The idle-air motor was to blame ( I think).

I had checked everything else, so my next thing was to replace it. It wasn't that easy though, both bolts snapped off when I attempted to remove it. Grrrrrrr!  So, off with the intake again, but this time I took Ever-E-Thing off, to eliminate any possible problem. Cleaned or blew out anything I could. Hit that throttle body with a good cleaning. injectors looked new, and replaced all fuel lines and vacuum lines just for the hell of it.

Took my time doing it, and when I hit the starter it fired right up! After letting it warm up and settle  down, I took it on the interstates and opened it up. DAMN! So this is how they are supposed to run! Came home, and it was running so fine it brought a tear to my eyes. OK, it was really my allergies, but it idled down and ran so smooth I was totally impressed

 

Thanks everyone for all your help and support. it was greatly appreciated.

[Hemi Dude]

On 9/23/2016 at 6:48 PM, mensanguy said:

Remember a few seasons back Jagjet had a car he was trying to sell without much luck? Well, after much waiting, I bought the car last week!!

It really was a pleasant experience, and Jagjet and his family were true gentlemen and ladies.  Here's the rundown--It was bought for his mother when she was in her late 50's in 1989. Original owner.( I know-little-old lady, But it's true!!)  The car has  been garage kept all of its life, and it shows--it is as pristine as they get.  Not a scratch, nick  ding, or any signs of damage or aging on it.  Has been loved and pampered.  Has EVERY piece of paper and service/repair order since delivered. Dealer serviced always.  It's not like new, but pretty damn close.  Has the 16v engine and 5 speed. Even has the umbrella, tool kit, radio demo cassette, and original window sticker! Complete.

 

After delving into the paper trail, it seems that ( due to the owners aging) that the car was driven very little the last five years, and sat in the heated garage unused (plates expired June -2011).It was started up occasionally to keep the battery charged, and that's about it. I drove it March 2015, and reported that it ran badly because of bad gas, which was probably 6 years old.  That was the last time the car ran. It has been sitting  since then, and would not start  when I saw it again in April this year. ( checked trouble codes: bad distributor pickup) .  I bought the car, and had it delivered to my place. On a whim, I turned the key, and it started!!!!!  It sputtered, missed and ran rough until it warmed up, but it DID run! At that point, I cut it off, drained all the bad gas out of it, and replaced the distributor pickup. ( now-no codes at all!) along with oem  cap and rotor plus a new battery.  Put in a can of Sea foam and a can of Techroline along with a full tank of premium in the gas tank. Flushed the radiator ( clean and shiny inside) and an oil/filter change. Have been driving it all week to work on the freeway at 55+.

 

Here's the problems:  it wants to idle about 12-1500 all the time. It has missing/surging on acceleration, but will run steady at speed-although not that great. Turbo spools right up-it isn't shy! I am hoping plugged injectors are the cause. Has original wires on it.  Fuel and air filter  to be replaced this weekend. Everything else works 100%. No trouble codes. I remember the brakes were a bit squirrely, but they seem to be OK now, although the ABS light stays on constantly.

 

This car is a keeper- a rare find, and as Jagjet says- an unmolested survivor. I am open to any  and all suggestions on what to do with this rare gem. I want to keep it all original, but am contemplating doing the brake conversion.

 

What suggestions do you all have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, as the guy ( or at least one of the guys ) who promotes the conversion, you would probably think I would be all for it.

But, on this car, I would IMMEDIATELY flush the entire brake system using fresh DOT3 brake fluid and then drive the car with the ABS system until something goes wrong and you cannot acquire the parts.

Then would be the time to consider the conversion.   By the way, that is a beautiful car. Congratulations. 

[mensanguy]

As Colombo would say--Er, just one more thing.............

I wasn't thrilled with the rougher than normal idle, but could live with it. One thing I couldn't live with was no A/C, and the lack of air vent control. It had defaulted to the defrost position, and changing  buttons did not shift the air direction. This told me the a vacuum line to the control was off.  However, an inspection revealed that all was connected properly as it should be. After an hour of pulling my hair out ( which is difficult because I'm bald)  I found the culprit.

 

The vacuum check valve LOOKED healthy from the top, ( picture 1, view from the top)

 

BUT, when I ran my fingers around it I found the real problem--(see picture 2) it had rubbed against the exhaust manifold, and

 

1--melted and sealed the heat/cool side so that no vacuum got delivered and

 

2- melted a hole in the vacuum side so that there was a constant vacuum leak. ( see the tiny hole in the black side?)

 

A quick trip to the auto parts store for a replacement gave me both A/C and a better idling engine!

 

Thought I'd pass this along to anyone who might have the same problem.

 

Again, thanks to all for their help.

[Bill Reichert]

Have you replaced the brake flex lines yet?  After I got an 8 valve with 50,0000 miles, the rear tires blew one at a time in one week.  The flex lines had swelled inside and the rear brakes were not releasing!  This was in city driving at not more than 40 mph.

[pcain]

Same thing happened to my 16V, make sure you secure it with zip ties or some kind of clamps. I also added some length to the vacuum lines, to keep it further away from the exhaust.