1912 Humber

[oldcar]

Good Morning,

In 1912 Humbers were not famous for the dazzling array of dashboard instruments. In fact there were none. The only thing to attract the drivers attention was the oilflow indicator. If there was not a dribble of oil running from the indicator the driver should stop the engine and investigate the reason for the absence of oil. This device could be best described as akin to  a miniature drinking fountain. The oil dribbled from the bent tube into the basin below to be drained back into the sump. There is a rate of flow adjustment so the amount of oil could be regulated to prevent any over flow spilling onto the drivers trouser's leg. This could be even more inconvenient if the driver happened to be on his way to a game of golf and was wearing "plus fours" at the time.

 

For the benefit of all the Show Judges, this is "as found" and yet to be cleaned and polished.

 

Bj

Edited August 24, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

How cool is that little sight gauge.  Bernie, was it a "loss" oiling system, where the used oil is dripped onto the ground?  Or did it recirculate the oil?  

[oldcar]

Hello John

Remarkably advanced for the time (1912) the Humber had a full pressure lubrication with the crankshaft drilled to lubricate mains and big ends. The oil pump was driven from the rear of the camshaft, the only thing lacking was a full flow oil filter. It did have an inline fuel filter with provision to drain off any trapped water.

Rather than a dip stick for the oil level in the sump the oil level is checked by looking at the "Oil Level sight glass out-rigged from the side of the sump. The level is indicated on a central brass rod. There is a wire loop to "wipe" this controled by the small button on the top of the unit. No looking for a clean cloth to wipe the dip stick. There is a little door in the side of the under-tray to give a clear view of this.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

On August 12, 2016 at 6:29 PM, oldcar said:

Hello Zimm63

Welcome to my thread. You are partially correct the two cast iron ends from the muffler are recoverable and and will be used

The sections of mudguard will be used as patterns, bad as they may seem most things are saved for a purpose. As the restoration progresses you may be amazed how useful all that "junk" is. You have to remember this car is 104  years old and you don't just run down to the 'parts shop's to get replacements.  Oh yes, I nearly forgot, I will have  to work out a way to use the cylinder block and the sump too.  Actually, looking at the photograph again there is a whole lot of recoverable stuff in there, you just have to look a little more closely.

Brake rods, section of the hood (top) frame, bonnet (hood) latch, etc etc, not to mention the spring base for the seat.

 

Bj.

You are a better man than I.  Looking forward to the project.  

 

[oldcar]

On 20 August 2016 at 11:57 AM, unimogjohn said:

Transmission - I don't see reverse!

Hello John

It has taken a few days but after a search I have found reverse for you. I knew it had to be in there somewhere. As I expected right at the bottom of the box.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

Hello again John

Don't feel too badly John this one is the spare trans and it came in a dozen or so pieces.

 

Bj.

[DavidAU]

I'm not sure if your car is a 12 HP model Bernie but there is mention of a 12HP Humber in the Brass Notes section of the latest Beaded Wheels magazine where it states that the engine runs anti clockwise. 

It may be worth checking out if you didn't already know because it would be a bit hard to start if you were cranking it clockwise like normal engine.

David

[oldcar]

Hello David

That sounds to me like a real Furphy. Either way my car is an 11hp so I  do not anticipate any problems.

Thank you for your interest. I was contemplating joining the VCC but how many clubs can you belong to?

Some years ago I cut back to four as the cost was becoming prohibitive. No money left to buy petrol so  

I could not drive any of my cars to go to meetings. I find it is far more informative to buy a good book on the relevant subject.

Having just said that, I have joined the Humber Register, the Uk based members have been wonderfully helpful and an invaluable source of information and support. I have also bought three books since owning the Humber.

 

Bj

Edited August 26, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[r1lark]

Well, I had to look up "Furphy"

 

"A furphy is Australian slang for an erroneous or improbable story that is claimed to be factual. Furphies are supposedly 'heard' from reputable sources, sometimes secondhand or thirdhand, and widely believed until discounted."

[oldcar]

Hello r1lark

Did you look up the origin of the expression? It dates back to Australian soldiers during WW1.

 

Bj

[jp928]

A Mr Furphy made water tanks in country Australia with cast iron end plates with his name on them before WW1, and many were shipped with Oz troops overseas. Rumours spread while visiting the water tank became Furphies.....much like today's water cooler gossip sessions.

 

jp

[oldcar]

jp928 You are absolutely correct.

Edited August 27, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hanging out to dry, yesterday afternoon's collection of small parts with a fresh coat of dark green paint. Some are a little hard to see against the background of my garage junk. The green is Deep Brunswick Green with 20% black added.

Edited August 27, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

This afternoon I have de-rusted the steering track rod and three brake rods These are now painted my "extra dark" Brunswick green. While I had the lid off the paint I decided that it would be a good opportunity  to paint the underside of the chassis. This will need two or three days to harden sufficiently for me to turn it over and paint the top and pick up any little spots needing a touch up. That took all of three and a half to four hours. Now having washed up and changed I am ready to listen to some good modern jazz and enjoy a glass of "red".

The paint I use is an Australian product marketed here as "Kil-rust" The makers claim "No primer necessary".  I find that brushed on, it flows out to a nice smooth gloss finish when applied to newly wire brushed steel. I have been using it for years and will continue to do so. I seldom, if ever, need to apply a second coat. Being basically lazy, that suits me fine. It does cost a few cents more than corner harware shop Discount Paint but I think it is worth the extra to know that I will not be rubbing it back to apply more paint.

 

Bj.

Edited August 28, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[r1lark]

That is a nice color green you mixed up Bernie. Will that be just for the chassis, or will the whole car be that color?

[oldcar]

Thank you Paul

Chassis and wheels for a start. Edwardian Humbers ( pre WW1) tended to be all the one colour. Last time I tried a two tone darker green over dark green most of the people who looked at had trouble seeing the difference. It was realy subtle so you had to look. There is a lighter moss green that I could use on the body and mudguards but that is quite a way down the track. I have some black hide "in stock"so I will probably use that for upholstery and trim. The original "Humber Green" is a moss green, the original body panels I have still have the remains of Humber Green on them but after 104 years it is slightly faded.

 

Bj

[oldcar]

These are just two of the original panels, There is nothing to say that they have been repainted during the last 104 years. The colour is almost certainly the original Humber Green although faded and discoloured. Probably the 1914 TT Humber shown in the second photograph is very near the original Humber Green.

Edited August 30, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Wow! a busy day yesterday. I removed the centre bolts and clips from all four springs, wire brushed all the leaves then re-assembled and painted all four.

I have now worn out the new rotary wire brush I bought a week ago and will have to go and buy another (2). The springs are now hanging up to fully dry before I add them to the pile. I have almost cleared enough floor space to permit me to turn the chassis over. I can then paint the top. I still have to collect the front axle beam and pedal assembly from the sand blaster and paint both the rear axle tubes and the front axle, I hope to be able to start erecting the chassis sometime next week. I still have to decide if I take the wheels to be painted or to (brush) paint them my self. I still have to take the sixth wheel to be sand blasted and primed.Before i can do this I have to be able to remove the hub that is rusted into the centre. I have been soaking this in penetrating oil every other day. I may still need to take it out to a friend with a 20 tonne press. An hours drive each way.

Bj.

[Luv2Wrench]

Love the color Bernie!  You're making great progress, hopefully one day I can grow up to be you.

 

[oldcar]

4 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

 one day I can grow up to be you. 

 

Hello Jeff

I think you are doing OK and if I were you I would not be in a hurry to grow as old as I am. Unfortunately there are no age reversal drugs that actually work.

Let us just say 1936 was a good year.

 

Bj.

Edited August 31, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Despite my great age, I am still learning, a few posts back I showed a photograph of what I described as an in line fuel filter. This unfortunately I now find is incorrect. It is part of the exhaust, fuel tank pressurising system. The fine brass mesh is a flame trap and the tap is to release the  pressure after you switch off the engine. Here is the diagram from the owners hand book. There is provision for a hand air pump to pressurise the fuel tank before starting. 

 

Bj

Edited August 31, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Here I am, Saturday afternoon already, I managed to collect the front axle beam and the other smaller parts from the sand blaster yesterday afternoon, these now have a coat of my version of Dark/Deep Brunswick Green and are hanging up from the garage roof beams to dry. I have tried a patch of "Wilderness" green (much lighter moss green) I will wait until this has dried before deciding if it needs "adjusting". This will eventually be the main body and wheels colour and is similar to how the original Humber Green would have looked when new. 

I have also spent some time both doing emails and telephone with one of the previous owners. (He bought the car in pieces and sold it some time later, still in the same condition.) It would appear that despite passing through several owners hands it (the Humber) has been mainly stored in the same heavy wire crates for some 50 or more years.

 

Bj.

[unimogjohn]

It is amazing that the Humber remained together all these years and all the different owners.  My parts start to go missing/misplaced after a year or so.  You are making great progress. 

[oldcar]

Hello John

Not quite "together" but all in the same place!

I too am amazed that more has not been lost. With the exception to a couple of short lengths of brake cross shaft I cannot identify anything that is not there. Even those are a simple job to replace. Just a matter of cutting three or four keyways. 

To day I have turned the chassis over (single handed), lifted it back up onto four jack stands have finished painting the top side. I hope to start fitting the springs and axles in the next day or so. The only things that I will have to find/buy are the head tail and side lamps. While not all that difficult to find they will be expensive and so I will be leaving them until last. That is unless someone has a nice pair of CAV Bell shaped head lamps with matching side lights they no longer require.

There are two other things that I know have gone missing, the radiator cap and the petrol tank cap. Again these should not be impossible to either find or have made.

 

Bj.

Edited September 4, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Oops, Having opened another container of small parts, I have now found the Radiator cap and I suspect that the Petrol tank cap will turn up too as I continue to look in some other not so obvious hiding places. First thing is to know what you are looking for.

Given the same number of "things"; the smaller the space they are placed into, the harder it is to find that one elusive part. Believe me, this is especially true when you are not completely sure what the thing that you are looking for, actually looks like.

It is something when you are putting together again something you took apart last week. It is something entirely different when you are attempting to put together something that someone else took apart 50 years ago. Even more so, when all those individual parts have been packed up and carted back and forth across a continent the size of Australia a couple of times.

 

Try a huge three dimensional  jig-saw puzzle with hundreds of pieces.

Bj

Edited September 5, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[r1lark]

36 minutes ago, oldcar said:

It is something when you are putting together again something you took apart last week. It is something entirely different when you are attempting to put together something that someone else took apart 50 years ago. Even more so, when all those individual parts have been packed up and carted back and forth across a continent the size of Australia a couple of times. Bj

 

Bernie, you have put this in a perspective that I can understand!  I take lots of pictures (and measurements when needed) so I can put something back together correctly a couple of weeks later  .................can't even imagine trying to put something back together that someone else took apart 50 years ago.

[oldcar]

Hi Paul

While it is like a big 3D jigsaw puzzle, a lot is common sense. Regardless of age, with a couple of notable exceptions, the parts have to go together in a logical order. With some components it is a matter of matching up the mounting holes in the chassis.  I just love a challenge, it keeps me alive and it keeps me sane. Although some people may not agree with the last bit. 

 

Bj.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, oldcar said:

 

, the parts have to go together in a logical order. 

 

Bj.

 

 

  Agree. . Few are able to see the logical order, though.

 

  Ben

[oldcar]

Hello Ben

I guess that is what sorts the wheat from the chaff. When you have been doing something for a lifetime it tends to come naturally. In the defence of those just beginning, please do not be put off. You have to make a start somewhere. The problem is that too many people take on a major restoration as a first project. It is understandable that they get disheartened and abandon the task. That is what has been happening with the Humber and lots of projects like it. In the fifty years it has been apart it has passed through four or five owners with very little actual work being done before it went into the "too hard/too expensive basket". Just don't take on a too large  job. You can see it on so many of the threads even on this forum. I have lost count of the times I have said to people who have just bought a nice original car needing a little sympathetic work. Please don't rush in and tear it apart! Next thing you know is that the car has been all but demolished. Nine out of ten of these cars end up unnecessarily as scrap and the owner disillusioned. I don't take on basket cases because I feel sorry for the people who started then abandoned the project. All my sympathy is with the vehicle.

Finally don't fall into the trap of making a "tidy up" into a major restoration! The British with their "oily rag" cars should be an example.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

Today has been typical, fitting up the front leaf springs and the front axle beam. Most later (1930s) cart sprung cars had some bias in how the front springs were fitted with the distance from the front end of the spring to the "centre bolt" shorter than the distance from the "centre bolt to the rear of the spring. Being pre WW1 Automotive Engineering had not progressed all that far, the Humber centre bolt is exactly that. In the centre.  The springs can only be mounted to the chassis as Mr Humber intended with the shackle plates to the rear. The axle beam is in place but I have yet to tighen up the eight bolts that secure it to the springs. Rather than "U" bolts the Humber has forged plates with five holes in them. The one in the centre should be self explanatory. then four bolts secure the spring to the axle beam, located in four holes in the spring pad. Before I do this I have to make certain that the heads of the spring centre bolts are fitting nicely into the recesses drilled into the centre of the spring pads. This locates the axle onto spring and stops any movement should "something work loose". or if for instance one front wheel hits a really deep "pot hole".

I have been given very definite instructions to finish up early, wash-up and to change out of my "dirties" as we have "Grand-parent duties" this evening.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

Here is an intelegence test for you all. One I failed the other day because I walked out of the store without carefully checking the contents of the various little bags of nuts and bolts I was given or the invoice. How many of you Eagle eyed youngsters can see where I came undone,   I had in order to simplify things handed the counter assistant my hand written list of bolts, nuts and washers required.

I confess that I did order sufficient 3/8 nuts to permit me to lock-nut these. 

 

No pun intended.    (nuts and bolts+undone)

Bj

Edited September 8, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Seems like a helpful counter 'assistant' might check that?  I bet they would have in the old days.  I often had my local guy ask questions like "so what's going on these bolts" when I was ordering but now he's retired and I'm forced to order online.

[JV Puleo]

On 9/6/2016 at 7:58 AM, oldcar said:

Hi Paul

While it is like a big 3D jigsaw puzzle, a lot is common sense. Regardless of age, with a couple of notable exceptions, the parts have to go together in a logical order. With some components it is a matter of matching up the mounting holes in the chassis.  I just love a challenge, it keeps me alive and it keeps me sane. Although some people may not agree with the last bit. 

 

Bj.

Touche Bernie! It's probably true of all cars but it's especially true with pre-WWI cars. If you actually understand how they work (an many apparently don't), fitting the bits back together is simply an exercise in applied logic.

[oldcar]

The Humber is slowly going back together, starting from the front, yesterdays task was to put the front springs and axle on. The king pins show only the slightest amount of wear and do not justify replacing them.  Once I fit the locating clevis pins they will be fine. . Before I could mount the front axIe I had to run a 1/2in drill into the holes for the centre bolts to clear out 100 years of rust and muck to accomodate the heads of the new centre bolts.The steering box too shows virtually no wear at all. This is a worm and segment arrangement. Being a very simple construction, it is going back together again without any problems.  I can only wonder how many miles the car had been driven before it was taken apart. Among the containers of small parts I have found two brand new outter front wheel bearings. I will have to wash out the original inner bearings to check them for wear before replacing them. I seem to have two or three pair of front hubs but one pair that obviously have led a very sheltered life which I will be using. I will have to see if my friendly bearing man has any suitable leather lip seals to go in the hubs. There is quite apparently room in the hubs to accommodate them.

Today is shopping day and the forecast is for rain and storms so probably not too much work on the Humber. I have an about 20 minute drive to chase up the missing 5/16th nuts so I can complete putting the steering box together. I will try to take some progress photos later today or tomorrow. Screw down grease cups are also fitted into the tops of the king-pins.

 

Bj

Edited September 9, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

As promised here are this afternoons photographs of the steering box and front axle assembly. The first two of the steering box it is no the work bench the others should be self explanatory. I still have to have a locking ring made for the brass "plug" this controls the end float for the steering column. There are also as seen in the first photograph adjustment "stops" to control the travel of the segment inside the steering box which looks after steering arm travel (left and right hand  steering lock.) In the second photograph a brass grease cup with a screw down cap is screwed into the hole directly above the steering input shaft. The steering column attaches to this hence the generous sized keyway in the shaft. The drag link from the steering box to the right hand stub axle attaches to one end of the steering arm the tie rod between the left and right hand stub axle attaches to the other arm. Being an early 1912 chassis the tie-rod is mounted in front of the axle beam. Later cars had the tie-rod behind the axle. While this protected the tie-rod from accidental damage it was not as convenient when lubricating the tie-rod swivel pins. This was done (weekly) by screwing down the caps on the brass grease cups. How times have changed. Try suggesting that a modern motorist get under his/her car once a week to grease the steering arms! As is my perhaps extravagant manner all nuts and bolts are replaced with new hi-tensile stock. Bolts securing the front axle beam to the springs will be lock nutted. IE, two nuts.

 

Bj

Edited September 9, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Bernie, it's common with brass cars that some parts are in nearly new condition. I suspect that this is a product of the engineering. There were things they really knew how to make and that lasted a very long time while there were other parts that wore rapidly, either due to the materials available or their lack of long-term knowledge of how things will wear in use. Your throw-out bearing is a good example... though that could just as easily be a product of an owner that didn't really know how to drive and constantly rode the clutch. It's almost a given that the original owner didn't drive when he bought the car. I've also noticed that the ones that have survived, even when dismantled like yours (and mine as well) were probably "too good to junk" when they were taken off the road. We tend to forget that cars became obsolete much faster in the first two decades of the 20th century than they do now. If you look at lots of photographs c.1922, you will almost never see a 10 year old car. My guess is that 90% were retired before they were that old. I seem to remember from the PWC ad that your Humber had been made into a saw rig. If that happened in my hypothetical 10 year time frame, most of those running parts may have only a few thousand miles on them.

Cheers,

Joe P

Edited September 9, 2016 by JV Puleo
missing word (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Joe

There are several stories as to the history of my car. The photograph shown in PWC is now said not to have been my car but one similar. With it being moved around the country so much no one is absolutely certain which car it is. Even the people who claim to know absolutely everything cannot say exactly where it came from except that being a Humber it would have originally come from Coventry in England. As I am sure you have found, that there are at least two experts on every thing, the problem being that they can never agree on anything.

 

Back to work

 

Bernie j.

Edited September 10, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Another day another dollar (spent). Today is Sunday but in Glendora Lane that does not necessarily equate to a day of rest, It is now 9.45 and I will be out in the garage very shortly, I have a couple of jobs lined up and waiting....

 

It is now 5.00pm and I have just finished washing and changing into something more respectable. That is my clothes I am referring to rather than a bolt of lightening that will transform me into a smartly attired 30 year old. Work has progressed a little with the rear springs in place and the rear axle bolted to them. I did explain earlier that good old Mr Humber did not use "U" bolts but rather a nicely forged plate and four  3/8" hight tensile bolts with lock nuts on each side. The plate had a fifth slightly larger hole in which the nut securing  the centre bolt was held captive. All that is in placeand the wheels temporarily fitted so that I could by lifting the front of the chassis on my trolley jack I could wheel the chassis out side while I gave the floor a sweep and pick up some spanners etc. Ready for the start of another week. With luck I should be able to get the front wheel bearings and oil seals Monday (to-morrow) afternoon so that I can clean up the front hubs and fit them. Can anyone guess what that will mean? As Monday morning is set aside for my Petanque game it will be a short working day. 

 

Bj.

Edited September 11, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello 

It is now 2.30 pm Monday EAST.* and I am just back from buying the front wheel bearings, quite amazingly I could buy them off the shelf from my one man operated obsolete bearing supplier, so all that remains of the day can be spent cleaning the hubs and fitting them up. Once this is done the Humber can stand on four wheels for the first time in probably more than half a century. 

 

*  Eastern Australia Standard Time.

Looking for obsolete or hard to find bearings etc, www.aabearings.com.au/

Edited September 12, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Not so fast young man! I have now discovered that in 1912 Humber built 11, 14, 20, and 26 horsepower models, all were designed to use the same Humber patent centre lock wire spoke wheels and it appears that they all used the same front hubs. BUT the 11hp being a lighter car had smaller diameter front stub axles, the wheel bearings had the same outside diameter BUT a smaller inside diameter, My sample wheel bearing quite apparently came from one of the larger horsepower cars. It is too late to do anything about it now but it means another trip to AA Bearings in the morning. I am keeping my fingers crossed until then. There is one other option than I would sooner not think about now but if all else fails I may have to have some sleeves machined up to take up the difference. It seems as though with old motor cars nothing is ever simple but they certainly do keep your mind active. Prior to 1912 the smaller Humbers had non detachable wire wheels.

 

Bj