1990 Brake Issue

[Guest flajunkie]

My significant other had a scare in her 1990 convertible yesterday. As she approached the stop sign near our house, the brake pedal went hard to the floor and she heard a noise under the hood (was the accumulator pump) as she went into the intersection. Fortunately, she was alone there.

 

She got the car home and both ABS and Brake lights were on.

 

Some background:

 

We bought the car in late 2014 with about 12,000 miles on it. We had it shipped here to Florida in early 2015. We took it to our local Buick dealer, who had a mechanic that knows the Reatta, and had many maintenance items done. One thing was to change the brake fluid.

 

The car only has about 17,000 miles on it now. The ABS light had been coming off/on after the servicing. We should have gone back but we didn't.

 

I thought the ABS was a separate system; I know now it isn't. The light comes on when the pressure in the system is at 1500 psi and the red brake light comes on at 1300 psi. I understand now how the system works.

 

I followed the tests in http://reattaowner.com/roj/64-suspension-a-brakes/brakes-mechanical/172-accumulator-testing-instructions from Barney Eaton.

 

In test number 1, the accumulator pump started after two pumps. It ran for about 15 seconds and dropped the level of the fluid by about an inch.

 

In test number two, the fluid level was close to the full mark but below it.

 

After these tests, both lights were on in the dash.

 

Can anyone comment on this?

 

Also, I noticed three of the five connector locks were off the connectors at the power brake assembly. I wonder if the mechanic that bled the brakes a year ago did something?

[Guest flajunkie]

I just took another look at the problem.

 

The brake light does come on while the car is running, but turns off in a few seconds. The ABS light stays on.

 

The pedal feels mushy. I am wondering if air in the line could be an issue? Maybe a good bleeding would help? The fluid level is about 3/8 inch below the full mark.

 

The pump comes on immediately when the pedal is pushed with the engine running or not.

 

I am leaning towards a leaking accumulator.

[fordrodsteven]

You asked for any comments in your first post..... My ABS light is always on. I have a good set of front ABS leads to install. I just haven't gone in to fix it yet. I drive my car every couple of days. The brakes work fine as they should. The regular braking function will work just fine even if the ABS light is on. The "red" brake light coming on then going off when starting the car is normal function. The level should be about 3/8" below the line when the system has pressure. It will come up to the full line if you pump the pedal with the car shut off. When you pump the pedal with the car not running it releases the pressure in the system. By the way this is also the correct way to check the fluid level. Some people erroneously add fluid while the system is still pressurized. I would say if the "red" light is going off after starting the car you can be pretty sure the pump is working fine. Usually a mushy pedal signifies air in the lines. You should also check for any leaks under the car. Sometimes a 30 year old metal brake line has some corrosion and will cause a mushy pedal.  I really suspect you have a leaking line or hose more so than a problem accumulator. Last comment I'm going to make at this time is that you should go back through the procedure you mentioned (from the ROJ) Follow it carefully and you won't go wrong.

[KDirk]

Sounds like a classic case of accumulator failure. You've already established the pump is running, which rules out failure of the pump and the associated delay on the firewall. Would appear the pressure switch is also working correctly.

 

The (kind of) bad news is that the OEM accumulator is no longer available unless you find a NOS unit sitting collecting dust somewhere. A couple of aftermarket alternatives of various prices and need for minor to moderate modification are available.

 

 There has been much discussion on the matter here in the last year, I suggest using the search function for "accumulator", "hydac" and "teves" as key words and you will get reams of reading on the subject.  Provided you can source an accumulator, it is a relatively easy item to install. East Coast Reatta parts and Spinning Wheels both have offered aftermarket/repro accumulator but stock is sometimes short as they have them made in small runs so there is sometimes a waiting list to get one.

 

 

[Guest flajunkie]

Thanks, Steve and  Kevin.

 

I just did the ALDL connector check and there were no stored codes. (Just learned that doesn't mean anything if the ABS light is on all the time!)

 

The ABS light on would mean the pressure is much below 2600 psi or there is a bad sensor somewhere. Since the accumulator pump runs so readily, I suspect the pressure doesn't stay above 1300 psi very long.

 

I am curious though, if the brake lines contained air form a leak or just a bad bleeding, would that not drop the pressure in the system? Maybe enough to force the accumulator pump to operate but never reach 2600 psi?

Edited August 6, 2016 by flajunkie (see edit history)

[fordrodsteven]

First off I want to tell you Kevin has been at these cars longer than I have. He says it appears to be a classic case of accumulator failure. Heed his comments and investigate in that vein.

Edit - Besides I only have one Reatta.... He has more!

 Quote :"The ABS light on would mean the pressure is much below 2600 psi or there is a bad sensor somewhere. Since the accumulator runs so readily, I suspect the pressure doesn't stay above 1300 psi very long."

I think you mean the "pump" runs readily. If your pressure is dropping that much you should do a visual inspection under the car for leaks. If the accumulator is bad the pump should still be able to make some pressure

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by fordrodsteven (see edit history)

[Guest flajunkie]

Thanks, guys.

 

I just did the ALDL connector check and there were no stored codes.

 

The ABS light on would mean the pressure is much below 2600 psi or there is a bad sensor somewhere.

 

I am still guessing accumulator, but what if the system is leaking or has air in it?

 

I checked around and it looks like the HYDAC replacement will work...but SpinningWheels don't have any in stock.

[fordrodsteven]

Just a quick visual for a leak. If you're going to change the accumulator you will be bleeding the brakes anyway so if there is air it will be removed at that time. According to other threads on the forum I've come to understand that more times than not the ABS light comes on due to the front ABS sensor leads. They are the wheels that turn so the cable is getting moved whenever driving. I would first try to get the brakes functioning without being "spongy" at the pedal then chase the ABS light afterwards.

[Guest flajunkie]

Looks like HYDAC makes a diaphragm accumulator.

 

Does anyone know what the specs of our ACDelco 25528382 are?

 

Or which one of the HYDAC models is correct for our cars?

 

E3100_SBO_Katalogversion.pdf

[KDirk]

A quick note, an accumulator failure will generally not set any ABS codes. Most ABS codes are related to bad wheel speed sensors, pump faults or internal failures of the EBCM (ABS control module on drivers side of trunk). Also note that if you do have sensor codes that the factory service manual has the listing for which code goes with which wheel wrong so troubleshooting ends up being a goose chase. I believe Padgett first hit on this little factoid a few years ago.

[Ronnie]

5 hours ago, flajunkie said:

The brake light does come on while the car is running, but turns off in a few seconds. The ABS light stays on.

 

The pedal feels mushy. I am wondering if air in the line could be an issue? Maybe a good bleeding would help? The fluid level is about 3/8 inch below the full mark.

 

The pump comes on immediately when the pedal is pushed with the engine running or not.

 

The red warning light going off indicates that the pump is running and building adequate pressure. The fact that the red warning light comes back on when you press the brake pedal indicates you need an accumulator. There is no doubt in my mind that it is bad.

 

I think your best plan of action is to call Spinning Wheels and get on their waiting list for a Hydac accumulator. Their website always shows they are out of stock. When you call them they will not charge you up front. They will call you when a shipment of accumulators comes in. Then you agree to have them ship the accumulator and they will ask for your payment at that time. Once you have the accumulator installed you should flush the brake fluid and bleed the brakes as described on my ROJ website. You cannot bleed the rear brakes the way you do on a vacuum boosted brake system. You should inspect the rubber brake hoses at the same time. Flushing and bleeding the brakes should cure the mushy pedal.

 

Then you can tackle the yellow abs light being on. You will never solve the yellow ABS problem as long as the red brake warning light is flashing on intermittently.

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest flajunkie]

I really appreciate all the comments.

 

I am going to need an accumulator very soon, if that seems to be the consensus.

 

Is there any place between Florida and Kentucky I can find a new one?

[Ronnie]

14 hours ago, flajunkie said:

I am going to need an accumulator very soon, if that seems to be the consensus.

 

Is there any place between Florida and Kentucky I can find a new one?

 

Considering your wife ran through an intersection because she couldn't stop and  forum members have recommended you get an accumulator based you your description of the problem - you saying you are going to need an accumulator very soon is the understatement of the year. You need to park that car until you get an accumulator. It is dangerous.

 

You received good information here on your options for obtaining an accumulator. Spinning Wheels is less than 3 hours up the road from you. No new ACDelco accumulators have been readily available for a couple of years. You are not likely to find one of them, and if you do, you will pay dearly to get it. The Hydac has been proven to work so why look elsewhere.

[Guest flajunkie]

2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

 

Considering your wife ran through an intersection because she couldn't stop and  forum members have recommended you get an accumulator based you your description of the problem - you saying you are going to need an accumulator very soon is the understatement of the year. You need to park that car until you get an accumulator. It is dangerous.

 

You received good information here on your options for obtaining an accumulator. Spinning Wheels is less than 3 hours up the road from you. No new ACDelco accumulators have been readily available for a couple of years. You are not likely to find one of them, and if you do, you will pay dearly to get it. The Hydac has been proven to work so why look elsewhere.

I agree with you but I need to get that car back on the road again and I don't feel I should have to wait until a company orders enough accumulators to get one. When will that be? Next week? Next month? Surely, someone has a new one at a reasonable price somewhere.

[Ronnie]

20 minutes ago, flajunkie said:

I agree with you but I need to get that car back on the road again and I don't feel I should have to wait until a company orders enough accumulators to get one. When will that be? Next week? Next month? Surely, someone has a new one at a reasonable price somewhere.

 

I can't tell you when you would get one. They told me a shipment usually comes in about once a month.

 

Let me be clear that I have no connection to Spinning Wheels. I'm just trying to help you. I have nothing to gain by trying to point you in the right direction. If you can't wait then hit eBay and see if someone has a new ACDelco accumulator and buy it. Here is a link to one. It is double what you will pay for one at Spinning Wheels but if money is no object go for it.

NEW Brake Accumulator Ball Jaguar JLM1907 Delco 25528382 Saab 4002267 (Fits: Reatta)

 

Good luck on finding a new one at reasonable price by the standards they were selling for about 2 years ago ($125). If they were avialable old forum members like myself wouldn't be recommending Spinning Wheels or East Coast Reatta parts who sell the aftermarket accumulators.

[Digger914]

With only 17,000 miles on a 26 year old car, it would be a bit of an understatement to say that the car has not had a lot of use and the thought of having a car with that kind of mileage in a snow free part of the country does appeal to me. Congrats.

 

Now to the brakes. There is no accumulator shortage, for the ridicules price of $400 to $600 you can still get a brand new, original equipment, ATE manufactured accumulator. You just can't get it under the more affordable Delco part number price and the Jaguar part number price is a bit painful. The Hydac accumulator that will fit with some fiddling was and is again the best price for the part. The Wabco manufactured part sold under the Rover part number stc2784 was a wonderfully affordable $106.00 for a couple of weeks after the Brexit, but the British Pound has recovered some and the price is back up in the $200 range.

 

Now to the ABS light. If your pump isn't running continuously and with only 17,000 miles on a 26 year old car you might just have a sticking relay, give your relays a little wake up tap. Shut off pressure for the pump is well above minimum ABS pressure and if you're lucky it's just a relay.

 

 

[DAVES89]

9 hours ago, flajunkie said:

I agree with you but I need to get that car back on the road again and I don't feel I should have to wait until a company orders enough accumulators to get one. When will that be? Next week? Next month? Surely, someone has a new one at a reasonable price somewhere.

 

You may be new here, but you need to change your attitude regarding the availibility of parts. The Reatta was last made 25 years ago. It was a limited production car that now has some parts availibility issues. The scarcity of brake parts for our cars is well documented. The 3 items most needed [wheel speed sensors, accumulators, and pressure switches] have been discontinued for some time by GM and are not supported by the chain parts houses [NAPA, O'Reilly's, Advance Auto Parts, AutoZone, Rock Auto, etc]. You have certain vendors stepping up to provide used and NOS parts as they find them. Then there are places like Spinning Wheels that help some. 

 This parts issue is only going to get worse.

 I have advocated for years that if want to keep your car you had better take an active search to get and maintain an inventory of parts, or buy a parts car and strip parts as you need them.

 If you need an accumultor right now just go on Ebay and buy the one that you like. I am sure there is one there. You will probably have it by this Friday.  

[KDirk]

The other possibility if you are so inclined and have a large salvage yard nearby is to find a good used accumulator. Yes, it is a crap shoot and they are not terribly common but if you have a large U-pick or similar you may find one. Keep in mind that this is a short term solution at best as I'd not want to trust a used unit for very long. If you happen across a car with an intact Teves system, pulling the entire pump/reservoir/accumulator unit is highly recommended as you will then have all the major components less the wheel sensors.

 

Barring that, you are stuck paying a premium for the Jaguar or Saab versions on eBay or waiting for the Hydac unit to be in stock, simple as that. Of course, if there is someone with a NOS they are willing to sell you for anything less than the going rate for the Jaguar or Saab versions that typcially fetch around $400 then consider yourself very lucky. While I wish I could offers better answer, that is where things stand presently. As Dave has rightly pointed out, these cars are now at the stage where one needs to be resourceful and willing to stock critical parts in advance of needing them if you want to avoid downtime.

 

I have accumulated a lot of stuff for my four cars, probably more than makes any sense to anyone but me. But, I am determined to keep myself in a Reatta for many years to come yet and know full well that we are close to exhausting the sweet spot in supply of parts cars. The survivor rate has dropped a lot in the last 2-3 years, leaving many fewer beaters thatcan be had cheaply for parts. I've parted two myself in the past year, and Dave and I jointly parted out two others before that at his place.

 

I have another I recently bought to part out but will not be doing so until next spring due to lack of time and the desire to use it as a winter beater in place of my good cars. For anyone wanting to stay in a Reatta for a while I cannot stress the importance of having at least some critical parts on hand, whether purchased ala carte or as an entire car.

 

 

[Guest flajunkie]

Again, thanks for all of the comments. I'll be checking around from the suggestions given here on Monday. I'll let you know what I find.

 

It is much easier getting parts for my 1970 Z28!

[Guest flajunkie]

Still waiting for a part to showup at Spinning Wheels or elsewhere.

 

I found some interesting things.

 

A site that recharges them.

 

A place that could repair them.

 

An eBay seller...

[DAVES89]

You should buy the one for $285.00. The last published GM price was over $400.00. Don't buy the recharged/rebuild ones. Why put your life [or others] at risk?

Edited August 11, 2016 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[Guest flajunkie]

15 minutes ago, DAVES89 said:

You should buy the one for $285.00. The last published GM price was over $400.00. Don't buy the recharged/rebuild ones. Why put your life [or others] at risk?

I agree but I have a possible offer from another seller. (Can't say just yet.)

Are these exact replacements? I cannot seem to find the specs anywhere, and no one wants to release the part numbers.

[Digger914]

36 minutes ago, flajunkie said:

Still waiting for a part to showup at Spinning Wheels or elsewhere.

 

I found some interesting things.

 

A site that recharges them.

 

A place that could repair them.

 

An eBay seller...

I know about the guy that recharges these and I have no complaints, only one problem with the Reatta is the 50/50 chance that when you screw the ball down tight that the fill adaptor will be in middle of the brace.

Looks like your ebay seller is repackaging the Wabco for an easy $80 profit.

[DAVES89]

The GM part# listed on your ebay link is the correct part number.

[Digger914]

5 hours ago, flajunkie said:

I agree but I have a possible offer from another seller. (Can't say just yet.)

Are these exact replacements? I cannot seem to find the specs anywhere, and no one wants to release the part numbers.

The ATE that was the old Delco Accumulator specs

Port      M14 x 1.5,                            Screw thread 14mm 1.5 pitch                 

Operating pressure 14 -18 MPa       or 2030 psi to 2610 psi

Pre pressure or nitrogen charge  =  8 MPa,                        

Capacity 150 CM3,                           or a hair over a half a cup

 

If you look at your ebay seller post for what he calls the Jaguar JLM1907 Delco 25528382 Saab 4002267 and compare it to the Land Rover P38 in the upper right hand corner. There is a WABCO box in that picture, the first six digits are the device type, the next 3 digits are the variant and with that you get the spec sheet, the last digit being a 2 means that this is a sub assembly, part of a repair kit. It also means you aren't going to be buying this direct quantity one each. When all is said and done you have to realize that you are looking at the same part and a hundred dollars difference in price.

 

The specs are not identical to the old Delco, but they are close enough that your brakes won't know the difference.

[Barney Eaton]

If the fluid level is dropping "about 1 inch" you are past due for a replacement accumulator.   You might find a junk yard unit that is better than yours but it would probably still be bad. 

Does Marck at East Coast Reatta still have a supply?

 

[Guest flajunkie]

I've found a unit...should be here next week. I'll give you more details after I receive it. Thanks again for the help!

[handmedownreatta]

what about this one?http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311491977981

[Digger914]

3 hours ago, handmedownreatta said:

what about this one?http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311491977981

You have here a rechargeable serviceable accumulator that can be made to fit. But do you really want to?

This link will tell you what you need to do and show you what it will look like when it's your hood. 

 

[Guest flajunkie]

On 8/12/2016 at 1:09 AM, Digger914 said:

The ATE that was the old Delco Accumulator specs

Port      M14 x 1.5,                            Screw thread 14mm 1.5 pitch                 

Operating pressure 14 -18 MPa       or 2030 psi to 2610 psi

Pre pressure or nitrogen charge  =  8 MPa,                        

Capacity 150 CM3,                           or a hair over a half a cup

 

Is there some kind of valve in the lower body of these accumulators?

Edited August 24, 2016 by flajunkie (see edit history)

[Guest flajunkie]

On 8/12/2016 at 3:02 PM, flajunkie said:

I've found a unit...should be here next week. I'll give you more details after I receive it. Thanks again for the help!

 

The part wasn't acceptable. Back to the looking board...

[DAVES89]

Must be a pain to look at a car you shouldn't drive. In my part of the country we hope summer falls on a weekend...

[Barney Eaton]

Not really a valve, but when there is less pressure on the bottom than on the top, (see below) the bladder seals the input hole.

[Guest flajunkie]

3 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said:

Not really a valve, but when there is less pressure on the bottom than on the top, (see below) the bladder seals the input hole.

 

I noticed some of the different cars that use these have some sort of removable valve from the bottom. Guess not on these.

[Digger914]

Our style accumulator was made to use and replace and the way it's stuffed under the hood our options for shape are limited. The wabco and the hydac are fatter up top than the ate, so whichever one you get you will need to slip a washer under the brace to shim it up or the brace will be on the accumulator ball and that aint good.

[Guest flajunkie]

This is what is on the car now...I don't know if it was ever changed out.

[Digger914]

In 1990 the yellow label was round and on top, so this has been replaced in the last 15 + or - years.

[Guest flajunkie]

13 minutes ago, Digger914 said:

In 1990 the yellow label was round and on top, so this has been replaced in the last 15 + or - years.

 

Thanks. I was thinking it may have been. Does this look like an AC Delco replacement?

[DAVES89]

If it had a white "Made in Germany" sticker I would say it was replaced, otherwise I would say it was original inventory. It is a GM accumulator.

 How are you coming in your search? I was under the impression you were in a hurry.  

Edited August 28, 2016 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[Guest flajunkie]

18 hours ago, DAVES89 said:

If it had a white "Made in Germany" sticker I would say it was replaced, otherwise I would say it was original inventory. It is a GM accumulator.

 How are you coming in your search? I was under the impression you were in a hurry.  

 

Haven't found one yet, although I looked at a bunch. I'm concerned about the fit.