trimacar Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Well, there's a little local tour this weekend, so thought I'd get the Model 20 Hupp out and about. It's been sitting for 2 years, after showing it at a local show and driving into my garage. Had a fuel line problem, solved that. Went to start it and it started, ran a few seconds, and quit. That happens. Cranked again and it kicked back on me. That NEVER happens with the little Hupp, fixed timing Bosch DU4. So, I found the top dead center marks on the flywheel, removed magneto and reset the timing. Everything should be good, and sure enough, started again, ran for a few seconds quit. Back to TDC, take mag partially apart to see if gear spinning, test camshaft gear for play. Reinstall, retime, and yep, again, start stop out of time. My good friend Greg comes over, and goes through the magneto cleaning and adjusting, just to make sure. TDC, with him helping, timed, and SAME THING HAPPENS. Broken record, I know. I happen to be under car this mag removal time, and as he removes it, the engine is NOT at TDC, and lo and behold, missing gear teeth on a section of the cam gear. Apparently the magneto locked up and stripped a number of gears, not harming magneto gear. I was somewhat shocked, since I'd just had the magneto rebuilt in, uh, not long ago, let's see, oh......1977. Partial disassembly and new gear to follow...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Minerva Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 That's a bummer David - does that mean you have to take the camshaft out of the side plate? Or does the cam gear come off the end ok? Was it a fibre cam gear? I am still trying to sort my Model 20. It starts and idles beautifully and has been fine in the few parades I've taken it in this year. However, it just seems to always stumble on acceleration and I can't work out if its spark or fuel. However I think it may have been too retarded as I have recently advanced the magneto gear and am only now at about 15 degrees BTDC. So we'll see. Good luck with your repairs - hope its sorted quickly. It's a lovely looking car. Regards, Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 It's a metal gear, and the entire camshaft side plate has to come off the car. The camshaft then has to come out of the housing. The valves stay in the blocks, the "push rods" (they're actually push cylinders) stay in the housing. I've prepped the patient for surgery, removed fender and manifolds, new gear should be here this coming week. 15 degrees BTDC sure sounds like a lot. The manual doesn't talk about degrees, or at least the little reprint I'm working from doesn't (I have an original manual, but recently changed storage rooms in the house and everything is now impossible to find!), just talks about flywheel marks and setting what is known as the "E-Gap" on the magneto to match those markings. Only bright spot in the thing is that new gears are readily available, and not terribly expensive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 Well, I mis-spoke, or is it misspoke, or? Anyway, I was wrong. It is a fiber gear, sandwiched between metal for reinforcement. The interesting thing is that the cam has bearings that are "poured in place", so while I can sew a straight line, I'm not up to pouring bearings. A good friend is taking it apart now, and from a previous thread on the forums he has a description of how the bearings are poured, so we're going to see how it goes. Meanwhile, if there's anyone who's redone the cam bearings on a Model 20 successfully, and would like to do another one for me, please don't hesitate to let me know! Thanks David Coco Winchester Va. (not a very good picture, but it is off car now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Good luck with your repair, David. My Metz had the same type gear; a fibreboard sandwiched between steel, I assume to reduce noise. Mine was also missing a couple teeth. How loose are your cam bearings? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 Cam bearings are nice and tight, but that's pretty meaningless, since they have to be melted out to replace the cam gear. I mentioned to a friend who's really into early restorations that the new steel gear might be a little noisy, his rightful reply was that "with all else that's going on (running a little Hupp) you won't notice the additional noise"..... My good friend Greg is starting to work on it, and also making sure the 1977 rebuild on the magneto is freshened up a bit....he's already verified that the armature was rewound back then, sheesh, that's only 40 years ago, I bought the car in 1976... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Been there . Mine stopped completely. Set the camshaft up in the side plate and wrap its journals in newspaper the pour the babbit. Perfect clearance Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 We've also found that the camshaft has a little wear, and the tappets need to be dressed up. Have asked for a quote on a new cam from Tighe Cams in Australia, per another thread on this forum, if that doesn't work we'll get this one cleaned up a bit. Would have been interesting to see how they were doing the cam bearings at the factory, 5000 cars in 1910 so about 20 cam plates needed per day. Of course, labor was inexpensive then, but to do 20 sets of bearings a day "poured in place" would take 5 or 6 guys, one would think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom400CFI Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Same thing happened to our Hupp on a Brass and Gas tour.....about 40 years ago. I was a kid at the time. Car ran hard all day, the resin in the mag got hit and melted. It was fine as long as it was running....I guess. Shut it down that night. Next morning, my Dad flooded the carb, gave it his usual 'hit' on the crank, and boom...broke three teeth off that fiber gear. Tour over? HELL NO! My dad drilled three tiny drill bits into the gear, in place of each broken tooth, then broke the bits off at the right "height" of the teeth peaks. Using the bits as a frame, he mixed up epoxy and laid it in, building it up around the bits. After it cured (a few minutes) he hand filed the mass into the shape of gear teeth. Put the mag back on and off we went. I had forgotten all about that repair....but that repair is still in place, working today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 That's a smart repair! New gears came yesterday, the cam gear (repro) is not metal, but some sort of hard material, not sure what it is.....we're talking with Tighe Cams now about making a new cam, upon inspection the one out of car does have some wear, and regrind is an option but want to know cost on new. On the pouring of new Babbitt (or as my buddy Ken states, is it peeling of Babbitt?), still would like some pictures of dams and fixtures, and how do you include the oil holes in the pour? And yes, I'm looking for some dam pictures....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Damn spell check ! should have been peening of the babbitt after the pour. Not sure how you would do that in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Ah, peening makes more sense than peeling, although neither makes much sense. Thanks for clarification!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) David - Contact Edgar in Australia he informed me how to do my cam bearings . Unfortunately they were poured by a shop so I don't have any photos. My cam had a 40 thou bend in it and we tried to straighten it by shot peening it . It broke in two. I had a shaft made locally including fabrication, heat treatment, grinding and hardening it cost me NZ $1000 or about US$700 which I thought was pretty good - Was done by the same shop who fabricated the Stoddard jugs -Karl Edited July 30, 2016 by 1910Hupp (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 G,Day Huppers. David I believe only the early 20 models had the composite fiber with the brass side plates. By the middle of 1911 the gears were one piece phospher Bronze. Both of our 20s have this type gear and although we are running minimal backlash both gears are noisy Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 My Hupp is in the mid 5000 serial number range, which puts it in the middle of 1910 production. The engine had not been rebuilt other than new pistons in 1976, the bottom end is all original, Parson's bronze bearing on mains and rods I believe. Does anyone know of a shop in the United States that has rebuilt a Model 20 cam housing, pouring new bearings? I have the option of sending it across the big pond, but that sure seems like a long way around the barn..... thanks David C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 Well, finally found a shop in the Northeast that will take on the cam bearing project. I talked to numerous well-known Babbitt shops, all saying either can't or won't do it, and stating what a crazy way to install a cam. Finally found someone who has a reputable shop and talks like he can make it happen, very well versed on bearings... Does anyone have any specifications for locating the cam and gear in the housing? I've taken measurements from the mounting surface for the cam plate to the root of the driving gear on the crankshaft, but sure would like to know if someone has some corroborating measurements. I would think a tight fit, then adjust with gasket thickness on the mounting flange. And no, I did not take measurements as I should have before disassembling.... Any information or thoughts appreciated....thanks David C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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