22touring Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Normally if you want to shift a car with a non-synchromesh transmission without grinding or clashing the gears, you would double-clutch. However, I will admit that I have had absolutely no luck trying to do so with my '22 touring car. I just can't figure out how to do it. Has anybody else with a '14-'27 DB mastered the art of double-clutching? I wonder if the difficulty is due to operator ineptness, or is it somehow a consequence of the transmission design; i.e., locked mainshaft with countershaft disengaged in third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72caddy Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I double clutch my 19. Make sure you have thick fluid in the gear box as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The usual problem when changing down is being too timid on the accelerator. Change early and give it lots of revs. If you get it right the clutch is not necessary when you slide it into gear The other problem is you don't drive it often enough! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I put the 1500 Wt oil in mine and still haven't managed to pull off a clean 3-2 downshift. I think if I could watch someone do it properly I might be able to get it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Yikes, I think 1500 WT oil may be a bit too much. You want an oil that lubricates, but also doesn't slow the gears down too much. One also needs to develop an ear for engine sound at a certain speed, and thus the shift points. The other thing that I've notice, owners of early cars are used to modern cars that go to high revs to shift, early cars (and I've owned 5 early Dodge Brothers now) shift VERY SOON after getting going...1st gear is just to get moving, then clutch and at 5 mph or less, shift to 2nd, moving a little more, and shift into 3rd at no more than 10-12 mph....in other words, don't rush it, and you'll be pleased with how the car will perform... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 trimacar wrote: "Yikes, I think 1500 WT oil may be a bit too much. You want an oil that lubricates, but also doesn't slow the gears down too much." trim, I am going to respectfully disagree with you, based on what I have been told by various DB luminaries. You do want to use the 1500 weight precisely because it imparts the rotation of the mainshaft gears to the countershaft gears, bringing the countershaft more or less up to speed with the mainshaft, and thus helps the gears mesh more easily, the devil take the parasitic losses! The factory recommended "heavy body motor car gear oil" for the early DB transmission, and the DB version of this oil was called "Dodge Brothers Motor Car Gear Lubricant". I am curious what its SAE viscosity rating would be. I bought a gallon of LUB164 1500 weight for my car. It cost about $45.00, but almost $60.00 with shipping. I had been using 90 weight, and was getting quite a bit of clashing, especially going into first gear when the transmission was cold. I've got the LUB164 installed and I'll give you a follow-up report of the comparison after I take the car for a spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I'm anxious to hear about your experience with the REALLY heavy oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I struggle to accept that heavy oil like that is useful or good in a gearbox. Please explain how it causes the countershaft gear to rotate. I am also not so sure the bearings (actually bushes) are well lubricated with these oils due to their slow penetration into small spaces. A gearbox is a turbulent place. The oil is churned about in the presence of air, so is subject to strong oxidisation. Many oils create a lot of froth in these situations, which limits lubrication. A simple demonstration is to whip some up with an eggbeater. The higher the viscosity the greater the losses as more heat is generated. Higher viscosity also inhibits the ability of the oil to dissipate heat. I am also not convinced that "heavy body gear oil" translates into anything in particular in today's terminology. I suspect the heavy body was required because the oils had no additives thus thinned greatly with temperature and the heavier oil meant there was still at least some lubrication when hot to handle the extreme pressures in a gearbox. Modern additives take care of that with ease. They also reduce frothing and oxidation. I have read recommendations on these fora to use "steam oil", whatever that is and wonder if such oils are very resistant to oxidation and frothing. I'll stick with 85W-90 in my 1930 Dodge 8 gearbox. The EP additives have Copper Strip Corrosion test (ASTM D-130) result 1b (1a would be better). The gearbox also runs cool enough to put one's hand on after a long drive. I also struggle with clashing gears at the moment, due to lack of driving for the last few years while in failing health. Practice, practice, practice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Two completely different transmissions from the '22 and the'30 In the early DB trans the cluster does not rotate in top gear and because that is stationary it is why you get clashing or crunching (Aussie Terminology) on the down shift In the '30 trans the cluster rotates all the time There seems to be some confusion in regards to the lube that is used Early DBs with the pre S A E gear shift pattern use the very heavy oil I have put 85/140 in the trans of my Senior and that was done just to give the gears a coat of lube When I get closer with the completion of the restoration I will replace all the oils with correct ones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Interesting.........I have the problem up shifting........going from 3rd to 2nd is never a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I usually double declutch up with no throttle. Speeds it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozrocks Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The first question is: Does the gearbox grind when stationary and selecting first gear? After starting the car, depress the clutch pedal and wait a few seconds, then select first gear. You should hear no grinding of gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I have never been able to not crash the gearbox when down shifting from 3 - 2, regardless of the attempts at double clutching. So, I avoid it as much as possible. No problems up shifting without double clutching. I have Penrite T250 oil in the gearbox, which they say is equivalent to 600w oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Guys, this has been brought up several times and the simple reason for the 'Semi-fluid grease' is due to the specific design of the (pre '26) transmissions. Simply put when in Hi gear the countershaft assy is physically DISCONNECTED from the input shaft unlike more traditional transmissions. So the lube needs to be of sufficient viscosity to impart motion to that freewheeling countershaft assembly when in hi gear or downshifting will be nearly impossible. Regarding other problems in up shifting there may be several possibilities for difficulty. One of which is possible dragging of the clutch not quite disengaging probably due to too light lube in an earlier operation and having leaked past the front seal which, by the way was NOT designed to hold back those 90wt.or even 600wt lubes. Second it will be difficult to adequately explain how to shift these good ole' DBs but simply put, even with double clutching it is important to maintain engine RPMs equivalent to the gear ratio you are attempting to engage. Usually the car will let you know when to shift and I will admit each one of these critters seem to have their own feeling. So what works on one will not necessarily be the same operation as on another. Good Luck and practice patiently. Rodger "Dodger" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 I promised I'd re-open this thread after I tried out the LUB164. It is great. The grinding problem is improved 80-90%. It goes into any gear, even when cold, with nary a gnash of gears. I highly recommend the LUB164. And Rodger "Dodger" Hartley is right: I had totally forgotten about the article that appeared on this subject in the DB News some years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Interesting... Have you tried to downshift 3-2 yet? I have the Resto Supply Co. 1500 WT "Meropa" oil in mine and one thing I have noticed is that when first driving off after a cold start, it just doesn't want to make the 1-2 shift. I really have to force it in with some grinding. After that, the problem goes away. I still haven't managed a 3-2 downshift either. Did you use straight LUB164 or mixed with something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Ah... I see that is the same stuff I'm using... Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie L Butler Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 The guy I bought my 26 from told me 250 in the diff and a half and half mix of 140 and 250 (penrite) in the tranny. The transmission always gives a little crunch when pulling out of top into neutral in motion, but a rev in neutral makes for a quiet shift into second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sactownog Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I run LUCAS 80w-90 in my 1933 Dodge DP 6 rear end and transmission gear box. It shifts rough but when I checked the old oil it did not have shavings in it. however when I shift 1st,2nd, 3rd it has a slight grind but goes in smooth. however if I down shift from 3rd to 2nd or 1st if I am going to fast, the car will fall forward like I just slowed it down to fast. so I am in process of learning the old gear setup. my issue is the speed, I wish I could get better rear end gears so I can drive down the freeway without blocking traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 On 13/04/2018 at 5:54 AM, Sactownog said: when I checked the old oil it did not have shavings in it. Did it have a silver sheen to it? That would be the sign of microscopic metal particles in the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sactownog Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: Did it have a silver sheen to it? That would be the sign of microscopic metal particles in the oil. no it did not, the engine is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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