63 Riviera White walls, what is most correct?

[tim63riv]

Hello everyone,

The tires on my Black 63 are likely to die of old age before they wear out! What seems to be the best replacement size radial with as close to original White Wall width? Seems a lot of folks go with the wide white which just doesn't do it for me on these cars!

Thanks in advance for suggestions!

Tim McCluskey

Edited July 1, 2016 by tim63riv
Spelling! (see edit history)

[petelempert]

TM-Oh man, you are liable to get a flood of opinions and revisionist history on this one. I've met old guys at shows who swear my 63 should have "wide whites" to look factory correct. They mean really wide whites. To me that's not only incorrect by about 10 years but would make my car look very gangsta. Some guys tell me my car came with black walls. I don't trust either. If you look at Coker Tire American Classic radial for a 15" wheel in a 205, 215, 225 or 235 you'll see they have whitewalls in a 1, 1.3 and 1.6" dimension. From there, it becomes very subjective. Mine are 1.3" and that's plenty of white for me. PRL

 

[Arland]

If you do much driving with your Riviera, please consider buying tires NOT made by Coker. Lots of bad experience on a personal level as well as other car friends.

[bodayguy]

I have the Coker 1.3 inch. Hankook makes a similar white wall, which I have on my Jeep.

[smithbrother]

Blacks give it a today's look, and in my opinion, a GREAT look.

 

For my taste, RED lines would be the ONLY other choice.

 

But I like the competitive look, and understand YOU are boss,

 

Dale in Indy 

[RivNut]

Tires for early Rivs  were discussed at the event earlier this week in Williamsburg.   The concensus was to either buy your tires from Diamond Back the way you want, or to buy the tires you want and ship them to Diamond Back and have them laminate the color, design,  and white wall width to that tire.  

 

It was revealed that DB uses modern technology tires rather than hand laid tires like some of the other vintage tire dealers.  I think the brand Toyo was mentioned.  

[Barney Eaton]

_{As the owner of lots of Corvairs, I believe the 1960 Corvair Monza which came out in the spring of 1960 was the first (volume ) production car to use the narrow white walls. The 57-58 Cadillac Brougham had a narrow wsw but was a low production vehicle.}

_{In 1961 all Corvair Monza came with the narrow wsw when wsw were ordered, the other series use wide whites......by 1962 all GM cars were using the narrow wsw.   Don't know if anyone has specific information but it looks like on the first one the white shrunk back from the rim and there was black between the rim and wsw.  The white part grew smaller, the narrow wsw remained popular until alloy wheels came into fashion and for whatever reason if the car had alloy wheels it had black tires.  One exception to that unwritten rule were Corvettes, I believe the first year for alloy wheels on a Corvette was 1963 and you see ads and cars that had alloy wheels and narrow wsw.}

_{Back to the original question, by 1963 when the Riviera came out, it would have had a narrow wsw but I do not know the exact/proper size.  With a little research it appears that the new in 1961 Special may be the first Buick with narrow wsw....probably because it had 13" wheels, the same size as the Corvair and they were available in that size first.}

[Seafoam65]

                If you look at the original GM ads for the 63 Rivieras, the whitewall appears to be about one inch wide or possibly 1.25 inches wide, definitely one of the two.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

7.10X15's with a little over 1" whites sits and looks right.

 

I had been working in the tire shop since 1959 when the Rivieras came out. Blackwalls went on Ramblers, Falcons, Valiants, brown Ford wagons, and ferin junk. Blackwall tires denigrate nice cars.

 

The whites on my '60 are a little too wide. It should have 8.00 X 15's. I have 8.20's. The first set of Coker's got me 11 years and 12,000 miles. I replaced them with the same. They are 4 years old now; probably put another set on it in '23.

Bernie

[JZRIV]

Here is a pic of an original spare on a 64 taken at meet. Didn't measure it but its at least 1.25". The car also had all 4 original tires on it when purchased.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, JZRIV said:

Here is a pic of an original spare on a 64 taken at meet. Didn't measure it but its at least 1.25". The car also had all 4 original tires on it when purchased.

That tire looks correct. There was certainly more than one supplier but I would assume the whitewall size is the same spec...at least that is true for `65.

Jason, can you start another thread featuring the pics of this car? Sounds very interesting for folks who are into originality,

  Tom

[JanZverina]

Hi Tim,

These are the ones I'm running and for way less than Coker/Diamond Back prices.  A slightly thinner whitewall but well worth it unless you're a real concours stickler.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/tires/sidewall-style/whitewall/brand/mastercraft-tires?N=4294898495%2B4294879428%2B401392&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Default

 

-Jan Zverina

[smithbrother]

Denigrate?????

 

Nothing personal, but I don't think so.  Just look at all the cars on the road today, DON'T see many WW's hehe

 

YOU had to be speaking of the early years, even the early cars can and do look stunning with Blacks, that includes Riv's..

 

Dale in Indy

[JanZverina]

Hi Dale,

At first I was puzzled, but I see you are responding to Bernie's comment further up. As you say, these choices are a matter of personal taste, just like exterior/interior colors, etc.

-Jan 

[smithbrother]

Amen, to EACH his/her own.

 

I just wouldn't say, WW'S denigrate, or that BLACK denigrate any car.  

 

As I said, NOTHING personal, just don't anyone tell me my 41 Limited has been denigrated with blacks.  Lol

 

Dale in Indy

[RIVNIK]

Greetings,    One of the best things I ever did for my '65 was to mount Firestone FR380s. They are designated as pickup truck tires and are big, but not enough to seriously effect turning radius. They have a 3/4" whitewall which to me looks perfect on 1st gens. In fact they look just like the ones on Jan's Riv(earlier post). But the best thing about them is the ride, especially out on the freeway. The Riv tracks like it's on rails and handles like a new car. And just like me they were cheap (on sale under $100( 6 yrs. ago.) which is icing on the cake.  Drew

[60FlatTop]

I have blackwalls on my '94 Impala SS and my tractor.

 

In the context of a 1963 to 1965 upscale car and 50 years is a long time to remember. But even a deputy in a small town would spring for the extra $12 (pretty close to two day's pay) to get the white walls.

 

It's from an era when people wore suits to church or a funeral, something you don't see today. My old cars capture something of the values as well as the mechanics of their time. My "60 Buick was parked at my friend's funeral last week and a guy there, paying his respects in sandals, shorts and apolo shirt told me he liked it. Yeah, I stuck out like a Clipper tail light, but I knew he would have liked the Snap On 1/4" wrench tie clasp.

[Riviera63]

2 hours ago, RIVNIK said:

Greetings,    One of the best things I ever did for my '65 was to mount Firestone FR380s. They are designated as pickup truck tires and are big, but not enough to seriously effect turning radius. They have a 3/4" whitewall which to me looks perfect on 1st gens. In fact they look just like the ones on Jan's Riv(earlier post). But the best thing about them is the ride, especially out on the freeway. The Riv tracks like it's on rails and handles like a new car. And just like me they were cheap (on sale under $100( 6 yrs. ago.) which is icing on the cake.  Drew

 

I too, went to my local Firestone dealer 2 years ago and got five 225/75 steel belted radials for $79.00 each. The total bill for tires, mounting, balancing, etc. was less than $500.00 which I am sure is less than buying 2 tires from Coker et al. These tires will die of old age before they wear out. As Drew mentioned the car drives fantastic. I personally like the whitewalls on this era car and mine also have the 3/4 inch whitewall which I like as well.

 

Bill

[Barney Eaton]

In 1973 I purchased a new Cutlass Salon 4 dr sedan....the dealer could not understand why anyone would want a 4 dr with bucket seats (that dealer is still around today and I reminded him of that) anyway it was the first year for radial tires on that series and they were Firestone 721's that was also the first year for the dimmer on the turn signal (of that series)  I don't recall the mileage but I started having a "wiggle" going out my driveway, the steering wheel would actually move in your hands, as you speeded up it went away.  I had a shop look at the front and they said the alignment was good and the tires were balanced, during an oil change and grease job I notices steel cord showing on the inside of the tire....I contacted Firestone and they gave me the old "tires must be out of balance/alignment pitch" so I went elsewhere and traded tires.  Within weeks Firestone announced a recall on the 721's and I had no bad tires or records to try for an adjustment.   While I would like to say I don't hold a grudge.......I have never purchased another Firestone or Bridgestone tire....there are plenty of other choices.

[60FlatTop]

We used to call that "wiggle" sashay. It seemed to come from the rear most commonly and was an appropriate term. The belts would shift and show obviously. We also saw a lot of steel wires at the edge of the sidewalls. We sold a lot of casings for cash flow in a small shop. Radial casings were pretty much useless. Even if they looked good there was never enough rubber to buff them for capping. That's my experience and it followed right on the heels of the 2 ply discount store tires. Being young and impressionable they were sure a far cry from a set of Goodyear Double Eagle 8.20 X 15's. It just looked like "less" was being forced on the public. I don't think I hold a grudge, but I sure know how to resist. I resist them on the cars that ain't supposed to have them. I just inherently know that, but I'm older. Younger guys don't relate.

Reminds me of a couple years ago when I took my son on a job meeting with me. We took the client out to lunch and he asked if my son was our company engineer. I knew he didn't come right out and say "Oh, you look young and inexperienced. You must be the engineer."

 

Works that way with old cars "we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two."

Bernie

Edited July 4, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[smithbrother]

But YOU were shakin the camera while taking that picture, Lol. 

 

I need to go lay down, I'm  dizzy,,,,lookin at it, hehe

 

Dale in Indy

[tim63riv]

Thank you all for the information on white walls! Glad to see there are options still available for getting something close to the originals on the car. I do remember various relative talking about buying tires back in the day and black walls being the more economical way to go. Dad wasn't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but the Buicks always got white walls!

Thanks again!

Tim 

[Paul K.]

On 7/2/2016 at 1:53 PM, 60FlatTop said:

7.10X15's with a little over 1" whites sits and looks right.

 

I had been working in the tire shop since 1959 when the Rivieras came out. Blackwalls went on Ramblers, Falcons, Valiants, brown Ford wagons, and ferin junk. Blackwall tires denigrate nice cars.

 

The whites on my '60 are a little too wide. It should have 8.00 X 15's. I have 8.20's. The first set of Coker's got me 11 years and 12,000 miles. I replaced them with the same. They are 4 years old now; probably put another set on it in '23.

Bernie

 

 

To answer the question of the thread title; Since whitewalls were an extra charge, its possible some Rivs were delivered new with blackwalls and can be considered correct (but I wouldn't want them). 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Paul K. (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Darwin Falk's articles, in the Riview, about options will tell you what percent of the Rivieras were delivered with black walls and in which sizes.

[tim63riv]

Guys,

I've got black walls on my Blue riv and white wall on the Black car. With black leather interior and black wall tires, I think that would be too much black for me! My brothers 50 Roadmaster looks just great with wide whites, seems to fit that car. Thanks again for all of the information!

Tim

[Buffalowed Bill]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 7:16 AM, RivNut said:

Darwin Falk's articles, in the Riview, about options will tell you what percent of the Rivieras were delivered with black walls and in which sizes.

I guess passage of time helps with historical perspective, at least until the memory gives out completely! At 72 YOA, I probably have some years on most Riv owners. Just because I don't remember any first gen Rivs with BW's doesn't mean that none were delivered that way. As I recall, the vast majority of cars in the mid 60's were delivered with either WW's or Redline tires. This included Pony cars like Mustang and Camaro and muscle cars like GTO and 442's. When was the last time anyone here has seen WW's on a Camaro! When it came to luxury cars, or personal luxury cars, like the Riv, delivery must have been very close to 100% WW.

 

I happen to like WW's, when they are period correct. I admit to being mildly piqued and mystified by some younger forum members negative attitude toward WW's. Nobody is asking anyone to not use black walls, but I see WW's panned often in other threads on this forum. I remember well the cultural backlash in the early 70's, when the younger generation wanted to distance themselves from their parents by putting their own stamp on their cars. Black walls, and car stance (forward rake) were two of the major methods of making your look "tough." WW's had a forty year run. It ran it's course and has had a thirty five year absence. When we old timers are gone I have little doubt that the memory of WW's will fade away, like the culture of which it was a part. Cut us old timers some slack and don't tread on our memory of the way things were. There will be plenty of time when we are gone to enjoy cars without being offended by having to look at any whitewalls.

[RivNut]

I've copied and pasted the figures for tires that were delivered on the 40,000 Rivieras that came out of Flint in 1963.  This includes both sizes - the standard 7.10 x 15 and the optional "oversized" 7.60 x 15.. 

 

Option T1 was a 7.10x15 whitewall while option T4 was a 7.60x15 whitewall.  These two were chosen by 28,398 and 10,503 buyers respectively, or 71.0% and 26.3%.  That means that 97.3% of all ’63 Rivieras had whitewall tires from the factory.  The remaining 2.7% were split between two options, the base 7.10x15 blackwalls and the optional 7.60 blackwalls.

 

 In the article on tires for 1964, Darwin states that the numbers are almost identical to 1963 with 97.1% coming with white side wall tires.  In 1965, 96.75% of Rivieras were came from the factory with white side wall tires.

 

If you watched the "up from clay" video posted on a different thread, you can see some of the less expensive Chevy's coming down the line on blackwall tires.  In my opinion*, it all had to do with the prestige that the buyer put on him/herself, not necessarily the car, at the time of purchase.  Some of those cars from the '60's just looked 'cheap' with blackwall tires.  I'm talking about luxury sedans and hardtops, not sporty car (Corvettes / Camaros.)  You had to drive a car that fit your view of yourself.  My dad had an (what I'd call) ugly gray '50 Buick Special.  He worked at a Buick dealership in Hutchinson, KS.  He brought the car home on day one just because it was his only means of transportation;  on day two he had it back in the shop - painted the top white and added white side wall tires.  What a remarkable change in the appearance of the car and his attitude when he drove the car.  You should have seen him smile when he traded that for a white '55 Buick, with red interior and white side wall tires.  Personally*, I feel that white sidewall tires belong on every generation of Riviera except the 95 - 99's IF you're going to drive it as a luxury car.  IF you going to modify it to be a canyon carver, a mild custom, or put 20" chrome rims on it, then blackwalls are probably called for.

 

Ed

 

*I'm just stating MY opinion, not looking for any discussion. 

[flh73]

No one mentioned the double thin line white wall. My spare which looks original has this configuration.  "Hallmark 300" H78-15. Could this also been an option?

[RivNut]

The H designation came much later.  I can tell by looking at the wheel that you have either a 63 or 64. At that time tire companies were still using inches to describe tire sizes. The first year for Buick to use the letter designation was 1970.

[tim63riv]

I have seen cars from the 60's and 70's with the double thin stripe white walls but I am not sure when Buick used them on the Riviera. I know a couple of people in the local Buick BCA chapter that claim to have the original spare in their trunks and they are double thin stripe white walls. Do I dare even ask what tire manufacturers supplied tires to Buick for the 63 Riviera?

Tim

[Turbinator]

The gent That owns the shop where I buy all my tires said the “standard width of a white wall car tire is 15/16”. Actually, he gave the spec to me in mm. I asked him  to give it to me in inches, he said, “15/16” “.  I said okay. I like an 1’ better, but the $ was right so I bought the 4 tires.

Red Riviera Bob

[KongaMan]

17 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

The gent That owns the shop where I buy all my tires said the “standard width of a white wall car tire is 15/16”. Actually, he gave the spec to me in mm. I asked him  to give it to me in inches, he said, “15/16” “.  I said okay. I like an 1’ better, but the $ was right so I bought the 4 tires.

Red Riviera Bob

 

And there ya go. ;)  If you want the "correct" look, you're likely going to shell out $$$$ for Cokers, Diamondbacks, or the like.  That's a lot of coin for tires that will likely start to rot before the tread wears out.  OTOH, there are several serviceable alternatives (Hankook, Toyo, etc.) that are readily available at your local tire shop for a much lower price if you don't mind that the WW is only 3/4" or 7/8" wide.