Rick Fraser Posted August 3, 2016 Author Share Posted August 3, 2016 Sorry for not getting back to you guys, we were away for a week. I will check for vibration on the shaft tomorrow, I would imagine I could do this with axle stands in the driveway too, do you agree? I am concerned about the hot pinion bearing too, but the vibration is my main concern first, I'm not pushing it too hard for now. The rear end doesn't seem to make any unusual noises, I have shifted the car into neutral while driving to get a good listen to the rear end and it seems quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Rick Thanks for the photos of the wood wheel brake linings. Your car with these shows it is very original. I have attached an article from Volume 51 Number 2 of AACA magazine which sets out how to make replacement friction material from wood for the gearbox. It won't be very difficult to adapt the method to the different application. You would benefit from doing a static vibration check as well as a dynamic vibration check, as David outlined. Although, I would expect your work on the universal pins and bushings would eliminate any room for vibration. For the static check, I would merely try to move the tail shaft side-to-side and up-and-down at both the universals. If there is no movement, the vibration in these areas can only come from out of balance. Doing it on axle stands will not make the test less valid. I still don't understand the heat in the pinion bushing from what you have reported. Have you tried to move the pinion with the tail shaft disconnected? The quiet diff points to it being in good condition. AACA-V051N2-198703p26-29.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 Maxwell Vid 1.mp4 I had a lot of trouble starting the car after it sat for about 2 -1/2 weeks, Finally started last night, everything seem ok except for a bunch of smoke that cleared out. Later she started easily and ran fine. I checked for play in the tail shafts and they seem ok, very little movement. I drove the car and observed the output shaft but it is very difficult to see any imbalance. Here's a video, How would you suggest I check the U joints for balance? Is there a method? Or any other suggestions? The previous owner called and said he found a pan that goes under the motor and transmission, is there supposed to be one? He says he will try to ship it to me. Is it very big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 here's another video TRIM_20160809_110801.mp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Hello Rick Your videos are pretty conclusive that unbalance which can be detected by static techniques is not the cause. By that I mean there doesn't appear to be off-centre movement in the tail shaft. This does not exclude dynamic out-of-balance, where there are weights out of balance much like a road wheel which is corrected by putting weights on the rim. The only way I can think of to identify this out of balance is to remove the tail shaft from the car taking the front and rear spider together with the tail shaft for examination. That means leaving the front and rear yokes attached to the gear box and the differential respectively. The shaft can then be put on to a pair of knife edges and see if it consistently rotates to show a heavy point. This is messy, though. Are you sure you have an out-of-balance? From the videos, the car runs very nicely. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Rick, I suggested the tail shaft as the possible source of your vibration because I had the problem with mine. My universal joints had been converted to modern needle roller bearings and modern centre cross pieces using a kit available in US. The caps holding the needle rollers needed to be shimmed to centralize the joints to the shaft but the problem I was chasing was very obvious when looked at the way you have shown yours on that excellent video. I doubt that when I set mine up I got it to the level of precision that would be required for a modern car that drives at much higher revs than the 1500 RPM that is about the maximum on Maxwell. Yet despite my less than perfect set up it completely eliminated the vibration. . Yours looks fine, I doubt it is the cause of a problem. How serious is it? Could it be just the normal vibration for a 2 cyl car of its era? You previously asked about shimming the bearings. I had all of mine re-babbited so I did not consider shimming but if they are loose enough for vibration then they would be knocking badly. That hot pinion bearing is a worry could it be badly worn allowing the shaft to rattle around in the bearing? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 I believe the vibration is serious. It sets up in at a medium speed and gets progressively worse if I try to go faster. To date I haven't been able to go faster than a fast jogging speed. I think I should try to balance the shaft and U joints as Frank described, even if it is only to eliminate that possibility. Also, I haven't had a good look at the rear U joint while driving. Can I ask you guys what your max and cruising speeds would be? Thanks again Frank and David for your thoughtful input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Rick, Mine is comfortable at about 28 mph, it will run a little faster but its starting to sound a bit busy in the engine. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Rick, You asked in a previous post about an engine pan, they did have one although just about every car that I have seen has not had it fitted. Probably removed to allow removal of the engine and not re-fitted or removed because it trapped fuel and oil creating a potential fire risk. however its a nice thing to have just to keep the car original even if you do not fit it. I just looked again at your video and while you cannot see the rear universal joint the shaft seems to be running true, still its worth checking. Does the flywheel seem to be running true? I had mine balanced when I did the motor but it was not far out. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Rick I will echo David's comment about cruising speed. Our LD goes nicely mid-way between 25 and 30 miles per hour. I have had it over 30 a few times, but I'm not comfortable at that speed. Likewise about the engine pan. They seem to be fitted to the 1909 and later A series. The parts book shows it not fitted to the LD. I looked at making one to control the oil dripping, but now, for the shed, I have fitted a vinyl nappy (diaper). I'm interested in the vibration. Are both cylinders firing? I couldn't imagine the uni spiders being out of balance. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 The previous owner is sending me the pan, I'll take a shot of it when I get it to show you guys. I would be completely happy at 25 mph. Can't wit to sort this out, I like the idea of checking the flywheel for balance, I would imagine I could do a static balance check, do you agree? Is it difficult to remove the flywheel? I checked that both cylinders are firing and they are, but thanks for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstatman Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) Don't know how difficult it is to remove a Maxwell flywheel, but I have seen one after it's been balanced. Returning from a Packard Club weekend at Port Macquarie picked up DavidMc's flywheel from an engine rebuilder at Nabiac on the trip back to Sydney. Photo attached is of the flywheel going into the boot(trunk) of my '41 120 Packard Club Coupe. Edited August 17, 2016 by Ozstatman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Rick, I cannot comment on the difficulty of removing the flywheel because mine came loose when I first got it running so it came off very easily. However I would think that removal of a tight flywheel will require you to custom make a very strong puller . Frank may have done this with his. I had mine balanced by the man who rebuilt the engine and I do not know how he did it . It was not done because of a vibration issue simply to take advantage of the fact that it was easy while the engine was apart. I would expect a static balance would be fine as a basic check but after going to the trouble of removing it I would get it done professionally. Its not a jobe you would want to repeat! Keep us posted, I am keen to know what is causing the vibration. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 Hi guys, I've decided to remove the flywheel and balance it. Started to remove the key on the crank shaft and got this far. It looks like I need to remove the pin for the hand crank, any ideas for this?I I'm thinking it's a press fit. I tried heating and tapping it out but no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Rick I have not had the flywheel off the crankshaft on our LD. At an earlier time someone had replaced the gib head key with a straight key and I couldn't move it. I took the coward's way out when I had to replace the big end bearings and I left the flywheel connected to the crankshaft. Overall I have not had to consider balancing any of the rotating or reciprocating parts. Do your connecting rods match, including rods and pistons? Regarding the hand crank drive pin, the one on ours appears slightly tapered. A measurement of the diameter of each end of the pin will give you the pointy end. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Frank, you are right about the taper, around .020 taper, tried heating and tapping (supported) but no budge. My brother-in -law knows a vibration analysist who claims he can isolate vibrations, thinking about talking to him. I was thinking about your query re the reciprocating components, what if someone changed one side and not the other? Spent the rest of the evening polishing, very therapeutic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Rick I have not had the flywheel off the crankshaft on our LD. At an earlier time someone had replaced the gib head key with a straight key and I couldn't move it. I took the coward's way out when I had to replace the big end bearings and I left the flywheel connected to the crankshaft. Overall I have not had to consider balancing any of the rotating or reciprocating parts. Do your connecting rods match, including rods and pistons? Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Hello Rick It is no good heating. This will either expand the pin or contract the hole. It's time to stop tapping. I can see from your photo that you have a jack in place, and I assume it is supporting the end of the crankshaft, forward of the crank pin. The end of the crankshaft must not be allowed to flex. Ensuring you have the smaller end of the pin uppermost, I would give it a decent belt via a brass drift. Countersink the drift to accept the end of the pin if you are concerned about mushrooming the pin. Make sure you have the inside of the radiator covered with some light plywood for protection. I could not imagine that one side con rod and piston would be different from the other, but in our LD the previous owner found one piston to be +0.020" and the other was standard. Polishing is therapeutic? It may be for the first couple of times. I take 3 days to polish the brass on our LD in preparation for a tour, and invariably, the rain comes down. I love the work you are doing. Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Thanks for the encouragement Frank. I will set up the support as you describe and increase the persuasion. Just a thought, would it be a good idea to do a compression test? Maybe one side is way down? The reason I was asking about the reciprocating items is I saw a Youtube video and the guy described the pistons as cast iron and weighed 5 lb. each, is that true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Rick, I just weighed each piston & connecting rod from my 1912 AC, they are both the same at 8.1lbs (3.7kgs), on the kitchen scales. They are very heavy! Yours would be slightly lighter as it has 4" bore and compared to the AC which has 4.5". I took the lead from a number of other owners and fitted alloy pistons with A Ford connecting rods and this halved that weight. The other benefit of this change is that it replaced the original hinged connecting rod big end bearing with a conventional two bolt bearing. I am not sure about the possibility of your vibration coming uneven compression, I have had mine running on one cylinder at times and apart from being very under powered it had no effect on the level of vibration. The lack of one firing stroke would have a much greater effect than having a difference in compression under test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Hello Rick The only comments I would add to David's response is the oiling of the big end bearings should also be an opportunity for improvement. Our LD had alloy pistons fitted when we bought it. We suffered the failure of a big end bearing on a tour, so I replaced the con rods with those from a Ford model A as David described. I went a little further and installed an oil splash hole in each rod to assist with lubrication. I too have driven our LD with 1 cylinder not firing and the car sounds like it has a big end bearing failure. I wouldn't do any of this unless some failure forces you that way. Your car is the closest I have seen to 'as it came from the factory' for all the reasons I has said earlier. Regards Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 Bought a 4-1/2 pound sledge and no budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 I used a counter bored brass drift as you suggested Frank, that was a good tip, sure it saved my left hand. Protected the rad as you suggested with a kneel pad. Made the support from a chunk of Micarta with a clearance hole for the pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 This is thru the crank hole, what do you guys think is in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Rick, I am not sure what you are asking, the hole in the end of the crankshaft extends through to the pin you are trying to remove. Thinking about this a bit more, I would question the need to remove the flywheel. In my opinion it is unlikely to be the source of the vibration because that would imply it has been that way since new. Also they are known to come loose and disturbing it might cause that to happen and you do not want that. Yours has probably not been disturbed for a very long time, if ever since it was made. Maybe someone else has tried to remove that pin and bent the end of the crankshaft in the process in which case the flywheel would be running off centre and that could certainly cause vibration (and damage to the front main bearing). That is easily checked with a dial indicator on the crankshaft local to the pin. If the flywheel is running true and has not been modified in any way its balance will be as it was when built. Surely it has not always had the vibration? Your suggestion of an expert to locate the source of the vibration sounds like a better approach to me. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Rick I agree with David's idea. I took the coward's way out and didn't remove the flywheel from the crankshaft when I found I could achieve what I wanted when replacing the big end bearings. Regards Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in replying, I got tied up with some things I've been neglecting. I've decided to leave the vibration issue for now until it gets worse or I end up doing other engine work. I have a new question; I am considering to put the car in a local Santa Claus parade, do you guys have any suggestions about cooling? I was in the parade last two years with another old car and she heated up by the end. I have a 6 volt fan from that car I could fix to the rad of the Maxwell, would you agree with using that? The parade is about an hour long at about a walking pace. Here's a couple of more pictures, Thanks, Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMc Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Rick, Mine overheats under those conditions due to the lack of air flow through the radiator. I have never driven it in a parade for 1 hour and I imagine it would get very hot . A fan would help the over heating but how would you attach it without damage to the car- it is such a superb original survivor. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstatman Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) Agreed with David, "it is such a superb original survivor". Edited November 11, 2016 by Ozstatman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckR Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 My AB, which is in no way a proper Maxwell (it has a fuel pump and downdraft carburetor) is fitted with an electric fan just for parades, controlled by a simple switch. But my car is not a show car, but rather a car for show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 Thanks David, Ozstatman and Chuck. I can attach the fan through the rad without damage, just four plastic ties, rubber washers. It is very light. Chuck, would you run the fan continuously? How would you know if she's getting too hot? Does your battery run down? Here's the Missus' reluctant first ride....., Thanks, Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckR Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I only use the fan for parades. Otherwise, the radiator is sufficient. I have not had a problem with the battery, I'm using a 6v Optima. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 On 11/11/2016 at 6:25 AM, Rick Fraser said: Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in replying, I got tied up with some things I've been neglecting. I've decided to leave the vibration issue for now until it gets worse or I end up doing other engine work. I have a new question; I am considering to put the car in a local Santa Claus parade, do you guys have any suggestions about cooling? I was in the parade last two years with another old car and she heated up by the end. I have a 6 volt fan from that car I could fix to the rad of the Maxwell, would you agree with using that? The parade is about an hour long at about a walking pace. Here's a couple of more pictures, Thanks, Rick. Rick Did you ever resolve the vibration issue about which you were concerned? Frank Maxwell 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Rick I was doing some research and wondered how things were faring with your AB. I guess it has been winter and not much has happened since November. Did you reach a conclusion about the vibration you were concerned about? Would you post a picture of the car serial number (stamped into the camshaft cover on the passenger's side of the engine) and another of the vehicle identification tag (a brass plate fixed to the seat riser behind the driver's legs)? Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 Hi Frank, yes, a long hard winter, but spring is here now. I guess you're in winter now. How cold does it get, do you more or less suspend antique car activities as we do? I've had the car started and drove a couple of times. It starts very well. It slipped a bit in low and I was going to ask about adjusting the band. I thought they were both pretty tight on account of the neutral position being so small it was difficult to find. The car either wanted to move ahead or reverse trying to locate neutral if you know what I mean. I will try tightening low a bit and see how it goes. I will get the pictures of the serial numbers. I had a gas leak finally addressed. The shut-off at the tank was leaking. I thought it was a ball valve that couldn't be serviced and didn't like the idea of replacing the 100+ year old valve with a modern one. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it's not a ball valve and had an adjusting screw to improve the fit between the taper and the body. Cleaned it up, reassembled and voila, no leak.I've attached 2 pictures. No solution on the vibration yet. Good to hear from you Frank, thanks, Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Rick I know you are going to find this amusing, but last night was our coldest night so far this winter, 44degF. We enjoy clear, cloudless skies during the day up to 72degF. Our winters are dry and cool and our summers are wet and hot. Winter in the north is our premier rallying weather, but not so for down south. Adjusting the low and reverse bands. In my experience, the difference between slipping and not is about one eighth of a turn. So with the square headed adjustment bolt, that change is easy to gauge, just move a corner to midway to the next corner. That adjustment doesn't make a difference in selecting the neutral position. The tighter the bands the more play you have in neutral. Good work on the fuel shut off. Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 Hi Frank, that sounds like you have pretty nice weather, cool and dry is perfect for old car enjoyment. I made the adjustment as you described, worked perfect. Here are the pictures of the serial number. 6821. What can you tell? Can the production date be estimated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Rick Thanks for the photos. I'm glad the brake band adjustment was successful. I reckon that the custodian of the Registry will have the span of serial numbers of the existing cars and an idea of the model starting number. The next fact to determine is when the model year started. Any takers? Frank Cerutti 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Edited June 12, 2017 by Frank Cerutti (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Fraser Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hi guys. I've been tinkering with the carb and have it running pretty good. Today I checked the plugs and found one was a bit weak. Switched their positions and same. Looking for new ones now. Mine are AC FF. DO you know where to get replacements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Cerutti Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 On 11/11/2016 at 6:25 AM, Rick Fraser said: Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in replying, I got tied up with some things I've been neglecting. I've decided to leave the vibration issue for now until it gets worse or I end up doing other engine work. I have a new question; I am considering to put the car in a local Santa Claus parade, do you guys have any suggestions about cooling? I was in the parade last two years with another old car and she heated up by the end. I have a 6 volt fan from that car I could fix to the rad of the Maxwell, would you agree with using that? The parade is about an hour long at about a walking pace. Here's a couple of more pictures, Thanks, Rick. Rick The Champion X as commonly fitted to the Ford T will fit. Likely cheaper due to volume. The mixture looks to be lean, although you may have cleaned the plug Frank Maxwell 1909 LD9024 Townsville, Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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