1936 Packard Twelve Speedster 904080 Mecum Monterey 2016

[roadster]

Dick Saunders Creation is back on the auction block-Mecum Monterey 2016. It is being advertised by Mecum as (1936 Packard Twelve Boattail Speedster) 1936 Packard Twelve Gentleman's Tailback Speedster crediting Dutch Darrin as the coach builder.  I remember this car when Dick owned it.  The motor number for this car is 904080; I am glad to see that it still has the same motor that Dick put in this car back in the 50's.  He had paired it with twin superchargers, he did love his power.  Before Dick placed the Packard V-12 in this car, he had a Marmon V-16 motor with 1936 Packard chassis along with this 1929 Auburn body. He was a true pioneer when it came to Packard Hotrods.  Dick would be pleased to see this car today; he was very proud of it. Attached are pictures of this car in different stages

Edited August 6, 2016 by roadster (see edit history)

[roadster]

Below is a NYS registration from 1947 for a 1936 Packard 1407 Coupe. Dick pulled the Packard Twelve motor 904080 from this car to use in his Speedster creation.  The "Saunders Special" as it was called sometimes has similar style to Alvan Macauley's 1932 Packard Boattail Speedster. He did create a real hybrid; not too bad for a home grown car from Rensselaer New York. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by roadster (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I like it better without the wire wheels.

 

 

 

Are we going to discuss hot rods (modified cars) on here again? I love em.

[Walt G]

Thanks to "roadster" for once again setting the story straight about this "car designed by Dutch Darrin". Many years ago the fellow who restored it in the brown and yellow colors made a big deal of how it was a Darrin design. Since I am an automotive historian and author specializing in pre war coachwork ,he contacted me wanting a letter from me in writing confirming what he wanted the history to be - never mentioning Dick Saunders of course. I wouldn't and didn't do it. I also believe that AACA stepped up to the plate and also denied the car was authentic to the period as well.

I do think it is a neat car, especially in the current colors, just not something of the period designed by Dutch Darrin. This car will continue to be promoted by assorted owners, auction companies and other hype artists as an authentic car, which it definitely is not.

[roadster]

Dick Saunders passion to blend these parts together was just the right recipe. We are all amazed how the Dutch Darrin theory got spun into this car.  Dick would be honored to know that a well known car designer gave blessings that Dicks Creation was built in Paris. Actually; for those who know Dick.....he was not a Paris Guy. Dick helped his Packard Freinds with their projects from his home in Rensselaer New York. His knowledge was very extensive because of his Packard Agency experience from Boston, Massachusetts to Albany, New York.  The picture below is the start of Dick's Packard Speedster build in his back yard. I also included a picture of Dick's creation after Fran Roxas restored it.  Both pictures are of the same car; pretty amazing!

Edited June 11, 2016 by roadster (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Glad to see a public post about a modern built car. It's neat and looks good, but it is a very early made up car, nothing wrong with it as long as everyone involved knows what it is and what it is not. Too many dealers and auction companies fabricate stories faster than the can build the fake cars.......I see it way too often. Thank you for your straight forward post, it's refreshing to see!

[twin6]

More discussion on this car on AACA forum thread here five years ago.

[West Peterson]

On 6/11/2016 at 0:23 PM, JACK M said:

I like it better without the wire wheels.

It still has wire wheels. They're just hidden behind the covers.

[roadster]

Here is more history on the Speedster. 

[roadster]

These are the build pictures. Dick started with a 1936 Packard 1401 Roadster as the base. 

[JV Puleo]

So... is the Darrin letter an outright fake?

[vintageride]

JV,

Regarding your comment on the document.

It is important to remember, the primary documents that Roadster provided above were not available to Darrin then, or to many of those since that have evaluated the vehicle.  I prefer to believe, that Darrin was excited to see a vehicle from his past and was prepared to assist the owner and restorer any way he could. 

Vintageride

Edited June 23, 2016 by vintageride
spelling (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

21 minutes ago, vintageride said:

JV,

Regarding your comment on the document.

It is important to remember, the primary documents that Roadster provided above were not available to Darrin then, or to many of those since that have evaluated the vehicle.  I prefer to believe, that Darrin was excited to see a vehicle from his past and was prepared to assist the owner and restorer any way he could. 

Vintageride

 

What does that mean? Darrin was so excited to see someone else making a custom that he was willing to lie for them so they could pretend it was his? Someone showed him a photo and he said, "Oh, yeah, sure, that's my work."? I'm confused by your answer because this car has a known history and origin, yet here's a Darrin "authenticity" letter that's totally incongruous with any of it. That seems like fraud to me--somewhere along the line, someone lied to make this car something it's not, most likely to make a few extra bucks when it came to sale time...

 

Just because all the facts weren't known at the time doesn't justify making up new facts to fill in the gaps.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Park it next to the Tucker Convertible.

[Mark Simmons]

Here, Here Matt Harwood I could not agree with you more on this. Restorer 32 you gave me a real laugh

[A. Ballard 35R]

Fascinating and compelling set of pictures and documents provided by "roadster". Remember that Darrin was born in 1897 and perhaps was not totally aware of what he was signing in his later years. 

 

Certainly Mecum will have things properly represented in the prestigious Monterey catalog it publishes.

[K8096]

I think it speaks volumes that this car is not in the RM or Gooding auctions.  Those companies know what it is and probably don't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.  Mecum is not the auction company that top of the line CCCA Classics are usually sold at.           

[alsancle]

Is the 908040 engine number still on the car?   The amount of period documentation on Dick Saunder's cars is actually pretty impressive. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This car was written up in the PAC Cormorant  a while back as I recall.  

 

Not sure Darrin reacted with enthusiasm when contacted about cars of his past from what I have read about him, not as friendly as Gordon Buehrig was in later years, at least that seems to be the story...  AJ I think he was involved with one prewar MB at one time, and when contacted by the collector owner, mumbled something about "not making a dime on that one" and not being interested in seeing it although it was local to his CA retirement home? 

[alsancle]

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2016/06/27/one-off-hot-rod-combined-packard-auburn-and-marmon-parts-put-the-speed-in-speedster/

[A. Ballard 35R]

Interesting that even with the extensive documentation provided, there are still people who think that Darrin had something to do with this car.

[Matt Harwood]

7 minutes ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

Interesting that even with the extensive documentation provided, there are still people who think that Darrin had something to do with this car.

 

I suspect that the Venn diagram of people who believe the Darrin connection and those who have a financial interest in the car is a perfect circle.

[Restorer32]

Used to be a '31 Packard convertible here locally. I know for a fact it started life as a coupe. Some of you old timers would certainly recognize the name of the fellow who chopped off the roof in the 1970's and he did not try to hide the fact. The car was sold to a local dentist who restored it and convinced himself it was real. He knew where the car came from originally and was able to contact the daughter of the original owner and when shown pics of the car as a convertible she swore she remembered riding in the car with the top down with her Daddy when she was young. Provenance can sometimes be very easy to "research" I agree 100% with Matt. Anyone else remember when Darrin had a space in the Hershey flea market (old Red field behind the Blue field)

where he sold some of his original drawings at very reasonable prices? Wish I'd bought some.

[roadster]

Thank you for the feedback and questions on this controversial car.  I am glad that Hoppy Decker and Father saved these documents.  It really has helped provide history on Dick's Speedster. Many of us were happy to see the Hemmings blog this morning.  It is going to be interesting to see what happens in Monterey. 

 

 

Below is a youtube slideshow of the Saunders creation  

 

"1936 Packard Twelve Boattail Speedster 904080"

https://youtu.be/8wnLBrxmSbk
 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by roadster (see edit history)

[roadster]

More details from Mecum on Dick's car. 

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0816-244544/1936-packard-twelve-gentlemans-tailback-speedster

 

 

 

[t walgamuth]

I happened along to this conversation when looking for info on another car.  I was taken by the looks of the car and picked up this thread discussing its provenance.  I am no expert on Packards nor on what Dutch Darren may or may not have built or been involved with.  I have been interested in cars for about 55 years though and have spent probably more time thinking about them and doing things with them than about anything else.  Different enthusiasts have different views on what is important.  I understand people in the old Corvette want every decal and every part exactly authentic.  Ferrari folks though don't seem to mind color changes or even body changes especially if the body has been changed before.  ...Bentleys too.

 

I have never had a concourse car and probably never will.  I tend to want to drive them too much for that.

 

In the case of this car I want to try to understand what is believed and generally accepted by every body.  First it appears the car is sitting on the coupe chassis in which the engine came originally.  The body work appears to be done by a very skilled craftsman and it does not resemble an Auburn speedster in any detail except perhaps the windshield.  It is in fact much more lean looking than the auburn speedster which I always have loved unabashedly until I see this athletic looking car.

 

The body does not at all look like a backyard construction.  The body especially does not resemble any Auburn.  the shape of the door is much different.  The picture with it hanging at an angle above the chassis from a tree supports that the body has been off but in my mind does not mean it may not have been built originally by Dutch Darren.  The rear fenders and rear tail and deck also look very professional.  In fact I cannot find a line on the car that does not look perfect.  I'd love to see it in person.  A Packard expert and or a Darren expert probably could look at the details and say whether it was built by them.

 

If in the Packard world a car does not bear its original body but the body of a one off car which perhaps lost its running gear somehow surely that does not ruin it...?  If I had sufficient funds I'd jump on this car and enjoy it.  It is a work of art and deserves whatever attention it receives.

 

I don't have a clue of its value but I bet before too long it will sell for a strong price.

[alsancle]

Google 30 Auburn speedster and compare the door openings with the Saunders speedster.   It is 100% an Auburn body. 

 

Reading all the documentation in the previous posts and you are not sure what the car is? 

 

[t walgamuth]

I just googled 30 auburn speedster and did not find any with  a door shaped like that.  Can you direct me to the place they are please?  I'm sorry but in the discussion above I did not see any evidence presented about the body being an Auburn.  Can you direct me to the post please?

 

As for being sure what it is I don't think anybody said specifically what it is other than a fake and not a Darren.

Edited October 9, 2016 by t walgamuth (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Congratulations. I can't believe you got me to spend the 5 minutes responding.

[t walgamuth]

Thanks very much. Al!  

I did not find that picture.  I have to admit I am not the most proficient with the web.  It is definitely convincing that it is an auburn body.  The fenders and such look a lot better on the subject car though and it looks channeled over the frame, its so much lower than the auburn.  It also uses the more fully enclosed fenders which are the classic teardrop shape.

 

 

[West Peterson]

No. It isn't channeled over the frame. The Packard is a much bigger car, so it appears lower when photographed by itself. The Packard might be a little lower in overall height because I believe the wheels (17-inch) are a little shorter than the Auburn's (guessing 19-inch??).

 

Also, based on the side cowl vents on the Packard, the Auburn body was built by McFarlan as opposed to being built in Connersville, Indiana. The Connersville cars had the cowl vents on the top of the cowl, not the side.

[roadster]

Well, another article is coming out on the Saunders Special. Can’t wait to read this one. No matter how many pictures and documents that have been posted on this car. The Dick Saunders Creation keeps getting represented as a Darrin build.  I just don’t get it.  

[41 Su8]

I remember a gentleman in East Greenbush, NY  (just outside of Rensselear ) who was very proud of his '38 Twelve coupe. He would never drive it because he was constantly fixing the front end due to the heavy engine.  In reality it was a Super 8 with a twelve engine and badges bought from Dick Saunders.

[wayne sheldon]

Many people just like the lie so much that no amount of proof to the contrary will ever convince them otherwise.

It is a huge problem in the world today.

[Matt Harwood]

[TAKerry]

As a somewhat newer member here this is the first time I have read through this thread. Quite interesting.  Although it is not a 'darren' car, being that it is a 'period hot rod' gives merit in its own right. To me, not much different than a hot rodded model A from the 1950's. I think this car should be celebrated as such.  There was a thread awhile ago about I think a 50's/60's chrysler product that was a 'made up car'. The story and creation of that vehicle that at one time was controversial has become the selling point now. I feel the same about this Packard.

[8E45E]

2 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

As a somewhat newer member here this is the first time I have read through this thread. Quite interesting.  Although it is not a 'darren' car, being that it is a 'period hot rod' gives merit in its own right. To me, not much different than a hot rodded model A from the 1950's. I think this car should be celebrated as such.  There was a thread awhile ago about I think a 50's/60's chrysler product that was a 'made up car'. The story and creation of that vehicle that at one time was controversial has become the selling point now. I feel the same about this Packard.

This one?

 

 

Craig

[Cadillac Fan]

7 hours ago, TAKerry said:

As a somewhat newer member here this is the first time I have read through this thread. Quite interesting.  Although it is not a 'darren' car, being that it is a 'period hot rod' gives merit in its own right. To me, not much different than a hot rodded model A from the 1950's. I think this car should be celebrated as such.  There was a thread awhile ago about I think a 50's/60's chrysler product that was a 'made up car'. The story and creation of that vehicle that at one time was controversial has become the selling point now. I feel the same about this Packard.

 

I think that this misses the point.   Yes, it is interesting as a car.  With a neat story.  
 

You compare it to a 50s hot rod model A.   I would say it is more interesting than that.   But this car was sent to Fran Roxas to have it restored.  You would never send a model a hot rod to a top flight ccca restoration facility.  
 

The whole point of these made up stories is to sell the car at a large number.   At Mecum, the chandelier bid the car up to $1.5 million.  No one took the bait.  
 

 

Do you think the Mecum would have the stones to ask $1.5 for 1950s bitsa Packard hot rod?   I don’t.  

[oldford]

Why are we calling this car a hot rod? It's pretty obvious that this car was put together in an attempt to commit fraud. A similar story emerged a few years ago about a Marion built from an Overland with similar results. Just goes to prove my theory that if a lie is told enough times, it becomes the truth.

 

Frank

[TAKerry]

CF, I respectfully disagree.  I have seen some period hot rods restored to perfection. And Old Ford, I would call this car a hot rod. It was built in the late 40's with someone getting a larger displacement engine, and a refitted body. Piecing things together to suit his own taste. From what I have read above I dont think the original builders intent was to deceive or fool someone into thinking it was a million dollar car. I think he built something to the style and with the power that he wanted. WITH that said, I do think that the 'letter of authenticity' seems a bit hinky. Whether done maliciously or not. At this point it should be nullified.