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Ok, was reading about a collection of desirable 70s muscle cars. In the blurb the owner was stating that " this one is only one of thirty one built with four speed transmission" or " that is one of only 160 built as convertibles with that engine option"

 

We know the production figures for first generation Rivieras, and I have read some data detailing the percentage of cars painted in a given colour, but ....

 

All of our Rivieras are different, depending on trim option, drivetrain options and other factory fitted options. But I would like to find out that mine is one of 17 built with W, X. Y and Z options?

 

Is this possible and if so, where can I start looking?

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Well, if your an RoA member and go to the options not included segment. 

 

So, it is only possible to a certain extent. Unless you have a 1967 Riviera, then forget it, hehe...

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The factory document used to determine production numbers is called the "Daily Car Report". This report, when viewed for the last day of any given model year, displays the production numbers for the entire model year. The report is broken down into each individual color, trim and option but there are a few option combinations listed, probably for logistical production purposes. The combinations are not comprehensive enough to exactly determine the production figure of any particular car.

  Tom Mooney

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Mark,

  As stated in my post the daily car report for the end of the model year breaks down how many cars were produced with each individual option, and there are some, but very limited combinations listed, but one can only guess at a specifically equipped car by applying generalized percentages.

  Tom Mooney  ROA Tech Advisor and Librarian

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Darwin Falk, former President of the ROA, wrote an extensive series of article which were published in the Riview and are now posted on the ROA's website.  All of the information shown, plus a lot that is not shown, on the copy on post #4 is on the the website; not only for 1963 but for most all of the years.  If you'll notice on the attached page, it appears that no model 4700 (Riviera) was equipped with those options.  What the reader needs to realize that it's not that no Rivieras were equipped with those options, but that those options were available on other models but were standard equipment on the Riviera.   

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On 5/1/2016 at 8:55 AM, 1965rivgs said:

The factory document used to determine production numbers is called the "Daily Car Report". This report, when viewed for the last day of any given model year, displays the production numbers for the entire model year. The report is broken down into each individual color, trim and option but there are a few option combinations listed, probably for logistical production purposes. The combinations are not comprehensive enough to exactly determine the production figure of any particular car.

  Tom Mooney

When reviewing the D C R for the 65 WIldcats I noticed the groupings of options -at least one grouping focused on combinations of vacuum accesories for each engine option.

 

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2 hours ago, Wildcat65 said:

When reviewing the D C R for the 65 WIldcats I noticed the groupings of options -at least one grouping focused on combinations of vacuum accesories for each engine option.

 

Hi Ted,

  I`m sure if one anayzed the groupings and perhaps had a grasp of GM production priorities at the time it would be possible to explain why the option combinations were tracked. Maybe for distribution of vendor supplied sub-assemblies? I dont know....initially I simply looked for combinations which I thought would be GS related but I dont recall finding any info that was earth shattering.

  Tom

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Hi Mark,

sat in front of the fire last night, with I-pad, pen and a print out of your instructions. Resisted the urge to have wine or Effen as I wanted to keep my head clear and focused for what was going to be an adventure in revelation!

 

After about two hours going back and fourth in the ROA previous reviews, authenticating myself numerous times that I am a ROA member, and researching and rereading what comes up on the front of the site, I could not see the words

 

1963 DATA BOOK  :rolleyes:

 

to guide me to this revered source. ( you can see I don't give up easily when given a challenge) 

 

 

I was able to record the % and numbers of cars Arctic White, wire wheels, radio etc but  that doesn't always relate.

EG you might have all cars fitted with tilt and radio were Arctic white ( ridiculous but possible)

 

However, had to stop when the low battery warning came up.

 

Without giving the game away and make it toooooo easy, 

1. Am I looking in the right direction?

2. Could the title be slightly different?

3. Do I need to connect the I-pad to the mains?

4. Should I look seriously at Effen?

 

Perhaps a further tiny weeny cryptic clue would be an option here?

 

Thank goodness our bottle shop ( liquor store ) is open today !!!!!!

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If you had the cumulative daily report that Mark has, and you were to compare it to this, you could probably do the same thing that he did.

 

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/view.php?pg=63_options_regular

 

There are however other notes besides the wheel covers that are applicable to model 4747.  You have to read each note in the list to see if the 4747 is included or excluded.  For example: 

Code U6 Power Vents available on 4867 only as a separate option. Power windows (U7) required with power vents on 4747-4819-4829-4839-4847

You could not order power vents on a Riviera without power windows.  This particular note pertains to the Electra convertible because power windows were standard equipment on the Electra convertible.

 

Perhaps nothing like Effin in front of the fire then trying to wade through a bunch of 50 year old data.. 

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On 5/1/2016 at 4:56 AM, rodneybeauchamp said:

Ok, was reading about a collection of desirable 70s muscle cars. In the blurb the owner was stating that " this one is only one of thirty one built with four speed transmission" or " that is one of only 160 built as convertibles with that engine option"

 

We know the production figures for first generation Rivieras, and I have read some data detailing the percentage of cars painted in a given colour, but ....

 

All of our Rivieras are different, depending on trim option, drivetrain options and other factory fitted options. But I would like to find out that mine is one of 17 built with W, X. Y and Z options?

 

Is this possible and if so, where can I start looking?

The answer to your original question is "NO". It is not possible to determine exactly how many cars equipped exactly like yours were produced. You can only approximate the number produced by applying overall percentages given the options your car has....unless your car was built with a very low production option, or unless your car was built with exactly the same very limited option combinations listed in the Daily Car Report, by the time you take all the options into consideration, and mix all the applied percentages, any claim as to exact production number is without meaningful accuracy. Not sure if this is clear or not but it seems you are expending great effort toward a goal which is unattainable....but a great and fun learning experience none the less.

  Tom Mooney

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I'm just into my third bottle of Effen, fire is nice and warm and now I'm silly enough to open up the ROA forum.

 

So how can I secure a copy of the 63 Buick Data Book info that relates to Riviera, especially the section that identifies the number of vehicles with a particular option that I saw in one of the posts.

 

thinking that with some maths skills, a pen and paper I should be able to come up with a plausible figure on my 63.

 

Happy to pay for copying and postage if an email version is not feasible.

 

many thanks

Rodney

 

And as a side note, took it for a drive to show a friend who owns a  78 Cadillac. Going up a hill, opened it up for the first time.  

 

We were both impressed, two definite actions were felt and heard. One must have been the shifting of the transmission from D to L and the other was the opening of the secondary barrels in the AFB. All very exciting! 

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Hi Mark,

did you send a PM as I have not seen anything come through as yet. Am still keen to do some computations and come up with a figure.

 

And was also surprised at one previous post saying only about 10% of these cars would have survived till today.

 

However the more you think about it, the more it seems likely. I would guess that those already in good condition or restored, those with good option lists and pretty colours are more likely to be the long term survivors.

 

The rest, as they say, are history!

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Ward's is an automotive reporting company in the US.  They publish various reports and the one I found helpful is their annual Yearbook.  It list lots of info about the car industry and auto production.

The only place I found copies in my area was the University of Texas main library.   It reports the production numbers both by model year and calendar year (which can get confusing) the accessory production is also listed but by percent of production......the Bugle list 1963 Riviera production at 40,000.   If you were to look at Ward's Yearbook for 1963 that number should be the same, when you look at Ward's for something like power windows, that might be 41% (a made up number for this discussion) taken at face value that would indicate that 16,400 Rivieras had power windows.  What we don't know is how the 41% was arrived....was it 40.5 and rounded to 41% or was it 41.4 and rounded down to 41...with a total production of 40K cars the difference is several cars (40.5%= 16,200 & 41.4% = 16,560) in this case a possible error of 360 vehicles.

Obviously the smaller the total production the possible error in the actual number of the option drops.    If you were looking at LeSabres for the same year the total production was around 170,000, a 0.1% different amounts to  170  vehicles

Bottom line is Ward's can be used as the source of "ballpark" numbers for production options

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You could probably get much closer if you look at Darwin's figures for the 1966 year.  The first three years '63, '64, and' 65 all stick pretty close together as far as percentages for any one option from year to year.  I'd bet that the '66 numbers would be pretty close to the same as the yet to be found '67 numbers.

 

Trying to compare 1st gen stats to 2nd gen stats will be hard.  You have to remember that ALL 1st gen cars came with bucket seats and floor shifts in a console.  Starting with the '66 model, those were each an option.  Bench seats with the column shift was the base.  Plus there are a myriad of bench seat options from which to chose.  Someone should take a good look and see what was going on in 1966 and take it from there.

 

Ed

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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Where- in all this info - do I find how many 1963's were built with the color Spruce Green?

I think I saw the number of about 1,400 somewhere but now cannot locate source. Thanks for help.

 

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1 hour ago, Silverarrow said:

My information has nothing on "Color / Trim" produced for 1963.

The color info is  on the ROA's website -  Options Not Included 1963 - 1964. The author reports the same numbers as is quoted above for the Spruce Green, but he goes on to say that there are no interior stats for '63.  Because the '63 and '64 stats for color, and other options are really close, he suggests that the interiors for '63 are probably close to the colors for '64.  In 1964, 1.571 Rivieras (4.17%) of the RIvieras came with the silver interior.  BUT it should be noted that in '64, silver interior was only available in the standard vinyl - code 602, and there was no deluxe silver vinyl.  Compare that to 1963 when silver was available in vinyl AND leather. 

 

The very first 1963 Riviera that I ever laid eyes on (Late Sept. / early Oct, 1962) was Spruce green with silver leather.  I got a model of a '63 Riviera when they first came out and painted it to match that first Riv (when I bought my '63 back in '82, I repainted the model to match my newly acquired Riviera - black w/ white interior.)

 

The author says that it's possible that Buick does not have this information because they felt it should have been the responsibility of Fisher Body to keep track of it.

 

It appears that we'll never know. 

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Hi Mark, many thanks for that offer. Details as follows

 

63-4747 FB 7124 11B built November 1962 Engine number 7J1022165 ( matches body tag)

Trim 778 custom red leather and vinyl interior

Paint CC Arctic white top and bottom

D Sonomatic push button AM radio with manual antennae

I6 Air conditioner

N2 Softray tinted glass all round

U8 Power windows and power vents

 

Other items factory and dealer image.jpegimage.pngfitted

Four note horn set

Wire wheel covers

Tilt steering wheel

Left hand and Right hand exterior mirrors fixed type

Oversize white wall tyres and rims

Cornering lamps

Heavy duty suspension springs and shock absorbers

Positive traction differential

Front seat belts

Carpet savers and handy mats

Undercoat

Beauty glaze

 

All these are as per the original Jennings Buick dealer invoice. 

As you can see, it came fully loaded. Power seat was ordered according to dealer order form but never fitted.

So thinking with this range of options, only one of a handful perhaps.

 

PS has the 140mph speedometer and plain metal dashboard.

 

Be interested with what you come up with also,

kind regards

Rodney

 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/3/2016 at 6:30 PM, Silverarrow said:

My information has nothing on "Color / Trim" produced for 1963.

The color info is  on the ROA's website -  Options Not Included 1963 - 1964. The author reports the same numbers as is quoted above for the Spruce Green, but he goes on to say that there are no interior stats for '63.  Because the '63 and '64 stats for color, and other options are really close, he suggests that the interiors for '63 are probably close to the colors for '64.  In 1964, 1.571 Rivieras (4.17%) of the RIvieras came with the silver interior.  BUT it should be noted that in '64, silver interior was only available in the standard vinyl - code 602, and there was no deluxe silver vinyl.  Compare that to 1963 when silver was available in vinyl AND leather. 

 

The very first 1963 Riviera that I ever laid eyes on (Late Sept. / early Oct, 1962) was Spruce green with silver leather.  I got a model of a '63 Riviera when they first came out and painted it to match that first Riv (when I bought my '63 back in '82, I repainted the model to match my newly acquired Riviera - black w/ white interior.)

 

The author says that it's possible that Buick does not have this information because they felt it should have been the responsibility of Fisher Body to keep track of it.

 

It appears that we'll never know. 

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Rodney,

It's pretty cool that you have the invoice for your car.  Do you also have the window sticker?  IMHO, the invoice that you're showing was created by the dealer to show both the factory options and some dealer installed options on one document.  For example.  The D on your Fisher Body data plate only means that the body as delivered to the final assembly plant was readied for a radio - probably means that the rear speaker was installed by Fisher; the rear half of the car is their responsibility.  If you had the window sticker to accompany the invoice, then you'd see either a D1, D2, D3, or D4 depending on which of the four radio options your car came with.  If your car would have come from Fisher Body with seat belts, there should be a B1 on the data plate - once again part of the rear half which is the responsibility of Fisher Body .  The mirrors were installed by the dealer, there's no S on your data plate and from the factory, only the driver's side mirror was an option  I know that outside mirrors were an option.  From what I can tell, the only factory option for the outside mirror is a remote mirror, code S7.  Options like the four note horn and cornering lights do not appear on the data plate because they're not part of the Fisher Body items, they're final assembly items.  The Handy Mats,  were probably dealer installed.  The Heavy Duty Spring option includes Rear springs, and front and rear shocks - different that the towing option which is only Rear springs and rear shocks. They could have been factory or dealer installed.  Without the window sticker, it's hard to tell.    It's also interesting that the dealer jacked up the base price of the car by $65 on the invoice.  There is lots of information out there that confirms that $4,333 was the base price for every 1963 RIviera.

 

When I purchased my '63, the original owner, from whom I bought the car, used to tow an airstream trailer with the car.  It had factory air shocks, electric trailer brakes, and an external  automatic transmission cooler.  He had the dealer do the work, but I think he had the springs, shocks, and cooler installed after delivery.  I have no records of that.  In my situation, I have the window sticker, but not the invoice.  Sure would be nice to have both.  The car did come with handy mats, vanity mirror, and a purse hook, all of which were dealer installed.  Black car with white leather.  That means the car has black carpets.  Can you believe that he'd put white handy mats in the car? He did!

 

I'm always interested in the way that folks ordered their cars.  For instance, the person who ordered this car went for the power vent window option to go along with the power windows, but didn't specify power seats.  That strikes me as odd for some reason. 

 

Let me finish my stating that in no way shape or form am I trying to run down anything that you've posted, I'm just trying to let you know how things compare with known quantities.  Nice car. Now, if we've not seen pictures of it, we need to see some.  As Mr. Earl says "no pictures? It doesn't exist."  :D

 

Ed

 

PS:  D1 - Sonomatic radio with manual antenna. D2 - Sonomatic radio with power antenna. D3 - Wonderbar with manual antenna. D4 - Wonderbar with power antenna.  There may have been a few AM/FM radios installed, but I've not found any code numbers for them.

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1 hour ago, Silverarrow said:

 

AM/FM Radio-Electric Antenna = Code D5.

Approx. 3,537 1963 4747's were produced with them from the factory.

 

 

 

IMG_3327.jpg

3537 model 44-46-47-4800 BUICKS were equipped with the D5 AM/FM radio option.  If you add the number in the column with the 3537 number in it, you'll come up with a sum of 119,560.  There were only 40,000 Rivieras built in '63.  The percent of all BUICKS was 2.8%.  If you think that the numbers would be the same for the Riviera, the 2.8% of 40,000 would be around 1,100.  The carpet saver option is broken down by model; 6.337 model 4700 left the factory with the carpet saver.  It could be that the AM/FM radio was added later in the year.  FM stations were few and far between in '63.  1963 was the first year that FM radio was available in automobiles so besides very few stations, they FM radio broadcast was probably not very well known.  

 

Ed

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1 hour ago, Silverarrow said:

Ed...

To make this an inclusive exercise, and ensure accuracy, let me know what you feel are the "Buick Factory-Installed (Flint, Mi)" Options the car was delivered to the Dealership with.  

 

I'll use your Option list based upon the Number Plate.

 

 Any "Dealer-Installed Options" not listed on the Plate would be the added variable...which my Report has no way of accounting for.

This comes from a table in the reference section of the Team Buick website.

 

1963 MODELS
 
Basic
Group
No. 1
Basic
Group
No. 2
LeSABRE A6-D1-G9-M5 A-6C8-D1-F4-B9-i7-M5-T1
INVICTA C8-D1-G99-T1 A6-D1-F4-G9-I7-S7-T1
WILDCAT C8-D1-G9-T1 A6-D1-F4-G9-I7-S7-T1
RIVIERA D1-S7-T1 D4-I6-J2-S7-T1-Z4
ELECTRA D1-S7-T1 D4-I6-J2-S7-T1-Z4

It shows that the AM Sonomatic radio with manual antenna, remote rear view mirror, and 7.10 x 15 White side wall tires were in Basic Group No. 1.  The AM wonderbar w/ electric antenna, Tinted windows (all, not just the windshield for which there was an option,) power seat, remote mirror, 7.10 x 15 White side wall tires, and remote trunk release were in basic group No. 2.

 

Here's the link to the entire full sized model spread sheet.

 

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/view.php?pg=63_options_regular

 

Attached are copies / photos of my window sticker and my data plate for my '63.  You can see the difference between what Fisher Body did and stamped into the plate and then what was added during final assembly.  As I said, my car also had a vanity mirror and purse hook which were definitely dealer installed, and it also had handy mats and seat belts, which must have been dealer installed because they're not on the window sticker. 

 

1963 Riviera window sticker0003.JPG

Fisherbody plate - Ed's '63 Riviera 020.jpg

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32 minutes ago, Silverarrow said:

Staying focused on Rodney's 1963 Riviera for the moment, his "Body Plate" (below) shows the following original Flint, Michigan Plant-installed options:

 

  Code D (Radio Prepped at plant ?? - Dealer installed actual Radio?):  Production Figures: See  

    previous post showing D1-D2-D3-D-4 production figures. 

  Code I6 (Soft-Ray Tinted Glass): Production: 25,956 vehicles.

  Code N2 (Air Conditioning): Production: 19,892 vehicles.

  Code U8 (Power Vents & Power Windows): Production not listed for Code U8.*                                    

     NOTE: Production for Code U6 (Power Vents) was 6,042 vehicles.

                 Production for Code U7 (Power Windows) was 29,364 vehicles.

                 * The "Buick Order Guide" states Code U7 (Power Windows) are required together

                  with Code U6 (Power Vents) on the 4747. 

 

So...this would suggest the other Options not listed on Rodney's "Vehicle's Invoice" were installed at the Dealership.

 

Ed.. your thoughts.  

 

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.bdefe55881b6bf3dc44181796f91900c.jpg

The dealer did not install the radio.  It was installed at the factory at final assembly.  The same place that the tilt wheel, cruise control, four not horn, cornering lights, etc. are installed.  None of what I mentioned ever appears on the Fisher Body (FB) data plate.  Because the '63 Riviera had a rear seat speaker only, think of it this way.  Fisher Body installed the rear seats, the speaker grill, the wiring harness,  AND the speaker.  All back half pieces.  When it got to final assembly, the line workers looked at a build sheet to see which of the available radios was to go into the car; they installed it and plugged it into the harness that came from Fisher Body.  They did this at the same time that the other things I first mentioned were done.  Gord Wolfgang worked for GM and he told me how different parts of the same car came from different plants and were "married" as they moved along different lines until they came to one final line.  A chassis was built on one line, the body was built in a different plant (Flint for the 1st generation Rivieras.  Euclid, OH for the 2nd generation cars - they don't have an FB number, they have a EU number) The bodies, the chassis, and the engines from the engine plant were all "married" at final assembly where the "bolt on" options were added.  A basic body comes from Fisher with no provisions for any options.  Fisher Body drills, taps, welds, what ever is necessary to provide the components for adding which ever options have been specified.  Some options they install themselves, others they only make provisions for.

 

As I said earlier, it has been surmised that GM does not have complete info on the numbers of cars with specific options because they felt that was a job better suited for Fisher Body.  Apparently Fisher Body didn't bother to keep track of how many of each color with which interior, with each option.  So there's no way for any first generation owner to say "mine is one of XXX built with these particluar options." Too bad but it didn't happen and we can't recreate it.

 

Ed

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1 hour ago, Silverarrow said:

Staying focused on Rodney's 1963 Riviera for the moment, his "Body Plate" (below) shows the following original Flint, Michigan Plant-installed options:

 

  Code D (Radio Prepped at plant ?? - Dealer installed actual Radio?):  Production Figures: See  

    previous post showing D1-D2-D3-D-4 production figures. 

  Code I6 (Soft-Ray Tinted Glass): Production: 25,956 vehicles.

  Code N2 (Air Conditioning): Production: 19,892 vehicles.

  Code U8 (Power Vents & Power Windows): Production not listed for Code U8.*                                    

     NOTE: Production for Code U6 (Power Vents) was 6,042 vehicles.

                 Production for Code U7 (Power Windows) was 29,364 vehicles.

                 * The "Buick Order Guide" states Code U7 (Power Windows) are required together

                  with Code U6 (Power Vents) on the 4747. 

 

So...this would suggest the other Options not listed on Rodney's "Vehicle's Invoice" were installed at the Dealership.

 

Ed.. your thoughts.  

 

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.bdefe55881b6bf3dc44181796f91900c.jpg

My thoughts on Rodney's invoice are that rather than the dealership showing the options with factory prices, they created an invoice with both factory and dealer installed options.  I can think of no other reason why other than they perhaps inflated some of the prices.  You can see on the invoice that they inflated the base price.  The only things that I could state for sure did not come from the factory are 1) the dual outside mirrors - Buick did not offer a factory installed passenger mirror, and Rodney's data plate show no mirror was installed. 2) undercoating, and 3) "glaze.  Everthing else could have come from the factory.  It would be interesting to know if the car was ordered by the customer with those options, but the dealer did not put them on his order form but rather installed them himself because of different markups and cash to the dealer.  I think the entire deal is set up for maximum profits.  WIthout the window sticker, the purchaser would have no clue.

 

I bought a new 2014 Buick Verano.  One thing that this particular dealership does is install aftermarket wheel locks on each of the cars he sells and charges the customer about 5 ($95) times what you can purchase the same locks for from Advance Auto or Autozone.  Anyway to make an extra buck.  And they won't take them off and sell the car without them.  :angry:

 

Ed

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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