1939 Royal - No Spark

[Doug 845]

I have a 1939 Royal that won't start. I just had the starter rebuilt and cleaned all the connections. The engine turns over fine but it doesn't want to fire up even after priming with gas and starter fluid. I already installed new spark plugs. The spark plug wires & distributor cap / rotor look good. I cleaned the points with some sand paper. The coil on the firewall looks original. I went to pull the coil and realized that it is attached to the inside ignition switch cable under the dash. Any suggestions? Do these coils go bad over time? Could it be the ignition switch? The ignition cable plate is attached to the back of the coil with tabs that are crimped on. How do I separate the switch cable from the back of the coil?  

[John Loney]

Hello Doug, based on what you have said, I suspect it might be the coil or at least the wire to it. Did you pull a spark plug and or wire to see if you have spark? I have to say, I'm not a big fan of that stock coil set up...I have the same thing with my '39 Imperial and at one point a couple of these metal retaining tabs let go and caused a short! The tabs can be bent back to allow for access to the wire and the back of the coil but they usually break off when you bend them. I'm in the process of installing a new coil and a Pertronix ignition and I will be keeping the coil in the stock position (through the firewall). However, I will be feeding the under dash wire from the ignition switch through where the throttle etc go and around to the front of the coil...It won't look 100% stock but for practical and safety purposes, I will feel better about this. In addition to the fact that those wires will be hooked up to a 45,000 volt coil which no doubt will improve the starting, and overall drivability of her. Good luck, and check that spark! 

[Reg Evans]

I had a 52 Dodge truck that wouldn't start after sitting for a while and it turned out to be a bad condenser.

[Doug 845]

I just checked the service manual (should have done it before) and followed the instructions on checking the coil. The manual says to pull the coil wire from the distributor cap and hold it near to the head. Then try to start the car and see if you can see a 1/4" spark being produced. I just did this and to my surprise I saw a nice strong spark. I'm glad I didn't spend $165 on a new coil. I then decided to pull and check each wire from the distributor cap and realized they are in much worse shape than I thought. I'm going to order new wires, cap, rotor, condenser, & points from Andy Bernbaum next week.

 

Thank you John & Reg for your input.

 

[Doug 845]

I am now totally confused. I just replaced the distributor cap, points, rotor, condenser, and wires. I go to start the car and prime it with starter fluid and get nothing. I check for spark from the coil and get nothing this time. What am I doing wrong? I checked the coil for resistance and get a reading in ohms on my multimeter. From what I'm told this means that the coil should still be good. I just charged the battery and its reading 6.25 volts. I just noticed that the starter will engage in any position the ignition switch is in. Is this normal? How do I check for a bad ignition switch? I'm at a loss and about to call a local mechanic.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Doug 845 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

What is the voltage at the coil with the ignition key on? Have you checked the connections? The connectors may be zinc plated brass on steel bolts; each one is a wee galvanic cell and corroded  zinc doesn't conduct well. I had this problem with my 1939 Studebaker: 2.2V at the coil, very hard to start.

 

Are you sure the plug wires go to the right cylinders in the right order?

 

Is the timing in the right place, i.e. not 180 degrees out?

 

BTW, sandpaper is not good for points. It leaves sand particles embedded in the surface of the points.

[Doug 845]

I checked the volts at the coil with the key on. It was 6.2 volts. I then checked it with the key off. That was zero volts. I think that should confirm my ignition switch is still good???? All of my wires are new. I didn't pull the distributor so the timing should be fine. I think my problem could be rust / debris inside my distributor that I couldn't see. I carefully used Q-tips to clean what I could see when I installed the new points & condenser. I ordered a new breaker plate assembly and will install that next. If that doesn't work - I'll have to call a local mechanic.

[Joe Cocuzza]

Was the car running BEFORE you had the starter rebuilt???

Suggest turning the ignition switch to the "on" position and check to see if you have a spark at the points. You can check this by separating the points (use a tool, not your fingers) while the ignition switch is in the on position. You should get spark at the points.

I would, as suggested, check the timing anyway. If you are getting spark then timing could be an issue.

Are the points set at the correct gap?

Are spark plugs gapped correctly, too?

[Doug 845]

The car sat idle for about 15 years. The starter quit on me when attempted to resurrect the old girl. The engine ran fine prior to being put into storage. I had a spark from the distributor coil wire when holding it about a 1/4" from the head when turning the engine over. After it didn't fire up, I decided to install new points & condenser. Now I don't have a spark at all.

[Spinneyhill]

Are the low tension wires to the distributor correctly connected? Condenser earthed properly? You have upset something in working on the distributor. Are the connectors clean and shiny and making good contact? Focus on the area of your work; it was connected, now is not.

 

Just do one thing at a time to track down the fault.

[oily rag]

If the points seem right, put the old condenser back in, the new one could be faulty.

[Doug 845]

Oily Rag,

 

Your are a genius. I swapped out the condenser with the old one and now I have a nice spark. I tried to start the engine but I believe I flooded it with to much gas because I only got a small backfire thru the carb one time. I'll try again tomorrow with a little gas and starter fluid.

 

Thank you very very much. I would also like to thank all my fellow members for their advice as well.

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

Backfire through the carb sounds like a stuck valve. Have you done a compression test?

 

Vacuum windscreen wipers? Check for vacuum leak.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Doug 845]

I will have to buy a compression test kit first. I tried to start the car again today and got the same result with a single backfire thru the carb with starter fluid. I then decided to check for spark at each cylinder. I pulled the #6 plug out and placed it on the head and then turned the car over and got a nice surprise. The #5 plug (still in) ignited whatever fuel was still in the #6 cylinder and shot a 1' flame out the open plug hole. When I had the #6 plug out, I noticed that it looked like the engine was running rich with oil / carbon on the new plug. I pulled all the plugs and they all looked the same. I cleaned them all like new and reinstalled them. I then attempted to try to prime it again with starter fluid and got the same result - one backfire thru the carb. I checked the timing (without a light) by lining up the marks on the front of the engine with the distributor rotor pointing at the #6 cylinder (as per manual). It looked perfect. The gap at the points is set correctly per the manual also. How could brand new spark plugs appear oily / carbon when the car has not been able to start  at all? I've only primed it with starter fluid and some gas. Should I just take the carb off and have it rebuilt or try something else?

[JACK M]

I wouldn't start to take it apart until you check compression. It sounds like maybe a head gasket.

If you have a friend to help you, you might be able to learn something by simply putting your finger in the plug holes.

Do it with the ignition off !!

[Doug 845]

Spinneyhill & Jack M,

 

You both diagnosed the problem correctly I think. I bought a compression test kit this morning and tried it on my car. I got zero psi readings in all 6 cylinders which might indicate open exhaust valves on this engine. I couldn't believe what I was reading so I checked the new gauge with another vehicle that I know runs great. That one reading was 150 psi so I know the new gauge works. I know that the spark plug holes on this car are above the intake / exhaust valves and not the pistons which might explain the zero readings with exhaust valves stuck open. The only accessible piston to check for compression would be the #6 piston that has a removable pipe plug above it to check for TDC for timing. I guess my only option now is to pour Marvel Mystery Oil in all 6 spark plug holes to coat the valves and wait a couple weeks to see if the valves free up.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Doug 845 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

What I did was to put a little oil in a plastic squeeze bottle with a nozzle and put a wee hose on the nozzle, about 4" long. Then poke it in through the plug hole and you can feel around to find the valve stem. Then put a little oil on the valve stem. Pouring oil in will just fill up the pistons unless you fill it right up. Anyway, it will run out into the manifolds. I used 50:50 ATF and acetone to better penetrate.

 

The usual way is to remove the head. I didn't want to do that for just one valve. I took off the relevant tappet cover and made up a wedge arrangement that would go into the valve spring near the bottom. It needed a slot to go around the valve stem. Then I cranked the engine, then levered the valve closed. I used the hand crank - it only needs two turns for each valve. After much fiddling around it started to close on its own with the wedge in. After more playing it would close without the wedge. Time to start it. Boy, talk about smoke! Much of that oil I dribbled in finished up in the manifold (including the inlet).

 

For you, just take off the head and get on with it. Open valves in all cylinders is too much to waste your time fiddling with like I did.

[Doug 845]

When I bought the car it had an intact copper head gasket in the trunk leading me to believe that the head gasket was replaced already. I'm a little hesitant to pull the head because I am worried that the head was milled at least once already. I will take the conservative approach at this point and apply the Acetone / ATF mixture to the valves with a squirt bottle - and also to the head bolts in case the valves don't free up on their own after a couple weeks. If they all still show zero compression, I can easily pull the head (hopefully).

[Spinneyhill]

Making assumptions = Big Mistake. Mostly you will come unstuck. Maybe they put the gasket in there coz they knew they had to remove the head for stuck valves and were preparing for it?

[Grimy]

The only time I saw ZERO compression in all cylinders was when the cam timing gear was stripped.

Suggest you remove the valve side pans and have someone crank the engine while you watch for up and down valve movement.  If the valves don't move at all, a stripped timing gear or broken timing chain is likely.

 

[hwellens]

An easy check to see if there is stripped timing gear or broken timing chain, is to crank the engine an see if the rotor in the distributor turns. If it turns the timing gears and chain should be OK. Of course, I have hear of slipping time with the chain, and this test would not relay to that problem.

[Doug 845]

I was going to wait a week or so to let the Acetone / ATF mixture work its magic, but I got seriously concerned about the timing chain issue mentioned by Grimy. I removed the passenger front wheel and inner splash pan to gain access to the valve covers. I removed the covers and was shocked to see brand new white valve springs - and the inside of the chambers spotless like it was machined yesterday. The cover gaskets are even like new. When the engine turned over you could see the rockers moving so that relieved my fears. The distributor rotor turns as well. I checked for compression again today and still have zero readings in all cylinders following one day after application of the Acetone / ATF mixture. I sprayed some PB Blaster on the valves today just in case I missed some area the first time around yesterday.

[JACK M]

Rockers?

If the lifters are moving you should be able to see if the valves are moving up and down.

Not familiar with that particular engine but would think there would be lifters against the cam  (don't think you can see the cam) they should be adjustable.

Then the lifter pushes up on the valves and the springs push them back down.

Zero compression would quite possibly be that all the valves are adjusted to tight. Or that they are all stuck which is unlikely.

Also unlikely would be that a head gasket was blown in several places.

 

After rereading your posts I see that it ran 15 years ago.

I guess it would be possible that when you cranked it recently you could have had all of the valves, or at least one in each cylinder stick open.

If you cannot determine if the valves are closing by looking at the lifters the you should pull the head. Not a difficult job.

[Grimy]

I agree with Jack. If it were my car, I'd pull the head and inspect.  Do any of the valve heads look new or cleaned? On open valves, what do the seats look like?  Next, use your PB on the valve stems from the top side, crank the engine and see if the valves stick or momentarily hang up in their guides. Adjust valve clearances (I prefer to add .001 to shop manual *cold* clearances for intakes and .002 for exhausts--loose valves don't burn).

 

Since you'd be going to all that effort, do it Right The First Time and check valve spring pressures. If the springs are new, somebody was in there 15 years ago and didn't do one or more things right--and didn't go back in.  So I'd actually remove the valves, use Prussian Blue or even a Sharpie to check the width and completeness of contact between valve face and seat, regrind the faces and seats if necessary or to clean them up, ensure the stems move freely in the guides, etc.  This will be a lot of work, but less than doing one portion of it, buttoning the engine up, then finding that didn't correct the issues.  Do It Right and you probably won't have to open it up again for 20 years.

[Doug 845]

I used the wrong term when I said Rockers - I should have said lifters like Jack M said. The lifters move up & down nicely, but some of the valve stems have gaps (1/4") between themselves and the lifters. Is that Normal? Should all the valve stems (intake & exhaust) be relatively flush with the lifters all the time? You can't see the valve heads thru the spark plug holes unfortunately.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Doug 845 (see edit history)

[hwellens]

When the valve is closed there should be .006-.008 inch gap between the top of the lifter and the bottom of the valve stem. When the valve is opening or open there is no gap. Therefore, if the gap is much greater that that .006-.008 inch the valves are hung up and not closing. Although, this is quite unusual for at least one valve per cylinder to be stuck in the up position.

[Alfre]

vales don,t have 1/4 inch gaps, can you pull down the stuck valves with a small pry bar?

Al

[Reg Evans]

If it were mine I'd remove the head so I could lubricate the valve stems.  I don't think your lubricant will ever get over and down to the valve stems through the spark plug holes.

[Doug 845]

The valve heads are directly under the spark plug holes. I have to agree with Reg Evans in regards to the lubricant not reaching the valve "stems". I am hesitant about prying the valves free & worried that I might bend something. Based upon the many knowledgeable replies to my post - I will remove the head tomorrow.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Doug 845 (see edit history)

[Doug 845]

Removed the head on Tuesday. I applied the acetone mixture to the valves stems. Of the six valves stuck open, 4 are now free today. I'm  applying a combination of acetone / ATF / marvel mystery oil / PB Blaster this afternoon to the other stuck valves. I will gently tap on the dead center of the remaining ones (with the rounded head of a ballpeen hammer) throughout the day and see what happens. What should I use to clean them once they are free?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Doug 845 (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I would run some oil down the stems until they all go up and down on their own while cranking.

When you go to tap the valves down tap a dowel in the very center of the valve head and don't smack it to hard.

You will want to move the car outside when you finally fire it up as it will most certainly smoke some.

 

[Doug 845]

Should I use any thread sealant on the bolts when I install the head back onto the block? The manual says to lightly oil the bolts and torque to 55 FT LBS but says nothing about sealant. I was surprised to see that the bolt holes go straight thru into the coolant area.

[hwellens]

I would use anti seize compound on the threads

[JACK M]

Mopars are famous for bolts leaking, both coolant and oil. Although its been awhile since I have been into one of these flatheads I couldn't really say about these head bolts.

But I always use a bit of permatex or even better, a marine thread sealant on all bolts. Makes it easier to get apart if needed.

Just make sure all of the threads are clean inside and out to insure even torque.

[Doug 845]

I am extremely happy to say that the '39 Chrysler started right up and ran like a new car after 4 shots of starter fluid. The sissen choke even worked like new. The oil pressure gauge even worked and showed decent pressure. The car did smoke for about 30 seconds burning off all the oil I applied to free up the valves. Now after all these years I would like to try and drive it - but I feel like an idiot because I forgot what the gear shift pattern is on a Royal C22. Can someone enlighten me please?

[Reg Evans]

Towards you and up is Reverse.  Down and to you is 1st. Away from you and up is 2nd. Away from you and down is 3rd.

Enjoy the drive !