Hupp36

1927 Pierce Arrow Model 36 Limo

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Spent  the  morning,  greasing the  Pierce.  Well not  being  in  my  shop &  not having  the  proper grease  gun  I  needed for the  early flow  through  fittings,  I  had to  improvise . Removed  each  fitting,  one  at  a time  and  replaced it  with  a Zerk  fitting  for modern grease  gun. After applying grease,  I  removed  the  Zerk  fitting  and  put  the  proper fitting  that  was  the  original with  the  car  back  where it  belonged. Needless to  say it  took me  all  morning  to grease the  car. Here is  a pic of  the  proper  fittings The  left    #  4  and  # 11 are the  ones.

Edited by Hupp36 (see edit history)

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I'd reinstall the modern zerks next grease job and save the originals for Pebble Beach.  The original tool roll (look under the front seat) had an item described as "compressor, grease" which was a pistol grip "liquid grease" dispenser (Liquid Grease being 600W gear oil (or as Pierce called it, Special Compound).  One pushes on the pistol grip and the gun dispenses a small squirt of 600W.

 

IMPORTANT:  Don't use modern chassis grease or a modern grease gun on the fitting on the steering box!  It will blow out the felt seal at the bottom of the steering box.  Unscrew the early zerk (has no check ball) and pour in 600W or Penrite steering box lube (latter from Restoration Supply Co. in Escondido, CA) in 900/1200/1500 weights, depending on how much leakage you have. This takes awhile to drain down and burp out air.

 

BTW, use 600W (the dark, smelly viscous stuff from Model T and A Ford vendors, NOT the honey-colored suspected-repackaged SAE 140) in both the trans and the (non-hypoid) differential.  I like to leave the diffs 1/2 an inch low due to felt seals around the axle shafts.

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Are  you  saying  that  what  they  say  special  compound  is   w-600?

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Yes.  Pierce was tied to Enterprise Oil Co. in Buffalo, whose trade name for 600W was "special compound."  That also made Pierce owners seek factory-authorized service when they couldn't find "special compound" by that name at parts houses.

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Beginning with the 1929 model year, Pierces used modern-style zerks with check balls and no longer furnished the earlier push-type dispensers, and used pipe plugs on the steering box fill hole.

 

To save the next mechanic, you might want to put a pipe plug in the steering box filler hole, and save the no-check-ball zerk for Pebble.  No check ball meant it overflowed when full, so you wouldn't put too much pressure in the box.

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Thank  you  for  you great  help,  I  will  make  sure  that  I  do  the  right  thing  as  it  is  vary important to keep  this  fine  car  all it  can  be.  I will  get  the  proper  lubricant.. I  think the  owner  may  take  it  to  Amelia Island,  not  sure  about  Pebble  Beach.

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Glad to be of assistance, anytime.  I use modern chassis grease via zerks for spring eyes, drag link, tie rod ends, king pins, and other suspension parts because that lasts, arguably, 1,000 miles vs. the much shorter intervals specified in the manuals when Special Compound or grease cups are used--but then I drive the cars more than *seriously* show them.

 

For serious competition like Pebble or Amelia, by all means put the original fittings back in.  If you used modern grease and a grease gun in your all-morning process, that should be good for 1,000 miles.

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Well  I  got  the manual out  and  found the  main  needle valve carburetor setting. It said  too  turn the   needle  valve to its  seat  and then  turn it  back out 5/8 to 3/4 of a turn to the  right. I  measured the  turns  to the  seat  and  found it  to  be  1 and 1/4  turns. That  was  the  problem. After  starting the  car  with the  correct  carburetor setting  it  ran good. I  did  notice  by  using the  rich  and  lean knob on the  dash  , you  could  make it  smoke  black  by  turning it  all the  way to the  rich  setting. Did  not  have time to road test it  today  but  will  tomorrow.  Ask  me  if  I  am  a  happy  camper, YES

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Well,  had  a great  day the  car  ran  super and  a best of  show  trophy. Car  running  well is  my  trophy.

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Congratulations to you and the owner!  She is a beauty and the embroidered interior is superb!

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See you at Amelia, I'll have the 34 Green Packard on the field. You won't be able to miss it. Ed.

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Ed,  I  was  looking  forward to  meeting  you. The  owner has  made previous arrangements to show  the  car  at  a charity to  raise money  for autism. Me  living in  N.H.  in the  spring  till  winter hopefully we  will  meet in  person. 

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April 3rd.  I will be  taking  the  Pierce to  the last  show  before  I head  north. I have  had the  time of  my life taking  care of this  car. Driving it ,  going to  car shows and talking  to  people  about  this  fine  automobile. We are having  a Hupp Club  meet in August 2016 in  Geneva NY.  I  hope to be able, after the  tour to visit the Pierce Arrow  museum in Buffalo.  

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I have run into problems with "lack of smooth shifting" with 600W in transmissions - often a 20's - 30's car owner's  or shop manuals will reference drops per minute and have had luck in past finding oil engineers to apply formula to their oils.

 

Also, I see no problem with rich - most 20's and 30's cars will just not be driven enough to matter.  I also always carry extra plugs (have never fouled a set on the road, though fouled many a set in our drive) and a wrench for such.  Obviously you want it rich by jet adjustment verses rich by improper float level or .... problem.

 

The greasing story reminded me of taking out all those nickle grease fittings with the nickle covers and putting in a zerk fitting for the 1931 Cadillacs every spring.

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On 3/27/2016 at 1:29 AM, John_Mereness said:

I have run into problems with "lack of smooth shifting" with 600W in transmissions - often a 20's - 30's car owner's  or shop manuals will reference drops per minute and have had luck in past finding oil engineers to apply formula to their oils.

 

Also, I see no problem with rich - most 20's and 30's cars will just not be driven enough to matter.  I also always carry extra plugs (have never fouled a set on the road, though fouled many a set in our drive) and a wrench for such.  Obviously you want it rich by jet adjustment verses rich by improper float level or .... problem.

 

The greasing story reminded me of taking out all those nickle grease fittings with the nickle covers and putting in a zerk fitting for the 1931 Cadillacs every spring   

The owner called me  and said  that he  has  joined the Pierce Arrow  Society. He  told me  that  they  have  a lot of  information  that  we  can  use to  find parts to  help keep this  fine  automobile in  great condition. Its only  been 20  days since I  have  not  seen the  Limo,  I  really  miss it.  

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Well,  I  am back in  the  presence of the  Pierce Arrow,  can not  wait to  get back  behind the  wheel of  such  a  great  car. I  have  a good  friend  that has this  great car  &  lets  me  take care of  the  cars needs. I  am  a very  lucky man to  be  able  to  drive it  to  shows  &  just  take it  for  a ride..

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I seen the Pierce arrow when it was owned and restored by Ed Oberhaus in Ohio in his museum. He was a avid collector, and liked Pierce Arrow's, when he restored that limo no expense was spared--top notch--- restoration, and a beautiful example of a prestigious limo in the day!!!!!!!

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Thank  you  for the fine  comet. I  will be  driving  this  fine  auto after the  Thanks giving holiday.I  will need to  check it  out  as it  has  been sitting  all  summer  waiting  for  me to  make sure it  is  ready  for the  road. I  am  thankful that the  owner lets  me  take  care of  such  a  fine  automobile. I  am  not  rich  as  it  comes to  money,  but  how  many people  get  to  drive such  a  fine  car. That;s  worth a million  to  me.

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After talking to  one  of the  guys  who  drove the  Pierce to a show this  past  summer, he  complained about the car  shifting hard,  gears not  meshing well.  I  drained the  transmission. The  gear oil that  came  out looked  fine  except for the viscosity. It  is about  50 weight. Pierce Arrow  says it  should  be  what  they  describe  as  { Special Compound}. We ordered 2 gallons of  #  W-600  to  fill the  transmission and  rear end. If the  gear  oil is to  thin,  the  gears in the  transmission will  not  slow down  fast enough to  mesh  with  the gear  you  are  shifting  to.  I  will see if  I  a  on the  right track when  we  get  the  new  oil. What  do  you good  guys that  have  helped  me in the  past  think?

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Hi Chuck, I'm delighted to hear that this splendid car is under your exceptionally able care again.

 

Yes, "Special Compound" AKA 600-W (or modern SAE-250 "straight mineral oil" -- GL-1) is the correct lube for the Series 36 transmission and differential.  The same is correct for ALL non-synchro Pierce transmissions through 1931 (but see caveat below), AND for non-hypoid differentials which were used through 1928 (see further below).  The good news is that the lighter oil you found in the transmission has served to flush it out, desirable because 600-W tends to thicken with age.  My trannies filled with 600-W are stiff for no more than the first five minutes in cooler weather; that's the nature of the beast.

 

The first Pierce synchromesh transmission appeared in the 1932 models, BUT the Pierce-Arrow Society has published P-A company documents showing a factory sponsored, authorized, and subsidized program to replace certain 1929-31 transmissions with either (1) the 1930 Clark 4-speed crash box, (2) the 1931 crash-box with free-wheeling (one year only push button for FW in shift knob), or (3) the new 1932 Warner Gear trans with FW.  A good friend has a 1930 Model B club sedan equipped, years ago, with a 1932 synchro trans but with no FW control in the driver compartment--i.e., locked out. For 1929-31 owners, note the markings on the trans case to determine which you have.

 

Differentials used by Pierce were non-hypoid through 1928.  As a rule of thumb, if the pinion enters the pumpkin in the center, the diff is NON-hypoid; if it enters near the bottom, it's hypoid.  Hypoid requires extreme-pressure lubricant, today's GL-4, available in SAE 90 or 140 (I use the 140).  The hypoid lube on the shelf today is usually GL-5 designed for limited-slip, and is NOT appropriate for the yellow-metal content in pre-war transmissions and differentials.

 

Please don't be tempted to use synthetic (GL-6).  In 1997 I undertook a cross country trip in my 1936 Pierce, and filled the diff (only) with synthetic AFTER consulting with a Ph.D. chemist at a major manufacturer of synthetic gear oil.  The chemist assured me that my yellow metal components were safe wit their synthetic. I stopped in Wyoming to refill a leaky rear shock, and was horrified to find the differential was as hot as the hinges of hell.  I quickly found an auto parts store, bought GL-4 and a drain pan, and saw the dreaded golden sparkles in the draining synthetic.  The GL-4 has served well and the diff has survived many more miles, thank God.

 

I'm also glad to hear that the owner has joined PAS.  I hope he takes advantage of the online support offered in the user name-and-password-protected "Members" section of the PAS website www.pierce-arrow.org  (note .ORG not .com).  If he has not already done so, he should sign up for that.  If he's willing, he could give you access to check (1) the online Message Board for tech support, (2) the Parts and Service Directory, and multiple other resources available in the non-public section.  Members can also purchase a thumb drive containing more than 50 years of the PAS "service bulletin" technical information, SEARCHABLE by topic and year/series/model.  PM me for more info on this.  Although we do not, at this time, have formally assigned year/series specialists, if you pose a tech question on the Message Board, you almost certainly will have an answer within 48 hours. It's an excellent benefit of membership!

 

VBR, George

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Thank you  George  for the  info. They tried to  sell me  synthetic and I  said  No. Now  from  your  experience I  am  glad  I  chose  not  to  use the  synthetic oil as  I  do  know  it  will  find  a  leak  when regular oil  will not. I  do  also  have  the  owners  permission to  go  on  his PAS site.I  will  have  a  conversation with  the  owner  about  the  thumb drive. He  is  very  willing  to give  me  all the  tools  I  need to keep  this piece of  history the  best it  can  be. Thank  you  again for  your  help. Chuck

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Thanks, Chuck.  To purchase the **CD** (formerly a thumb drive) , on the PAS website, log in to the Members Section, then select "Company Store" from the "radio buttons" on the left side of the webpage.  The Service Bulletin CD is at the top of the Company Store page.

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The  owner has  ordered the  CD,  Thank  you  George Took the  Pierce Arrow for  about  a 15  mile  trip this  morning.  Seems to  shift  better  with  the  W-600 in the  transmission. I  am  taking it  to a  car  show tomorrow  morning  so  I  had  a friend  take a pic of  me  hand  washing  it.today. All I  need is  some  nickel polish  that  i  could  not  find in the  shop  .Called the  owner  and he  is  picking  some  up. Plenty of  time in the  morning to  polish the  bright  work.

Srvice_the_Pierce_001.JPG

Srvice_the_Pierce_002.JPG

Srvice the Pierce 003.JPG

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