1925 Buick touring top rest or top clamps

[Hubert_25-25]

I received the following convertible top clamps with my 1925-25 Buick standard touring. I am having difficulty with the fitment. 

 

- The 1925 parts book on page 89, lists "top holders" parts 183824 and 183825, but there are no pictures. 
- When clamped to the top bows, they do not sit "straight up", they lean in some at the top.

- The attachment bolts that I have seem long, but they do screw into the car.  Maybe these are not supposed to be long bolts though, because the parts book also lists a "rear seat iron stud" 170853 on the top left of plate 39, but I am only guessing as I do not have these and the parts picture is not a good quality.  Perhaps I have just 2 random bolts for holding the clamps to the car, and there should be something else?

 

These top clamps I have look like ones I have seen in the 1923 parts book.  The clamps say "Gilliam Pat Pending".  They are brass. 

 

Any help on what I am missing for these clamps, or how the top is held in the folded position is appreciated.

 

Thank you,

Hugh

 

plate 39.pdfPage 89 parts.pdf

[Leif Holmberg]

Here are the right type of top holder for 1925.Yours are older types,1924 was the last year on Buick for that type.(sorry to lazy to change the rear window frame on my 1925-25 .)

Leif in Sweden.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Leif can testify that I have tried to find the type of saddles he has on his 1925-25. I have had many dead ends to find

anything close. I did mock up several sets to be able support the top in its folded position. Each one proved too weak and bent. I was moving on to a third version even heavier. I believe the former owner of my car did the greatest damage to the gypsy sides by putting the top down without any supports(all the weight on the spare tire). Also with no spacing between the pivot socket and the body and instead of snaps used "lift the dot" studs which have the sides pretty torn up. It was not until I had seen an image of the 1925-25X "Round the World Buick" showing the clamp and the period promotional photo of the 1925-55 Sport Touring that they appear also. I did check the 1925 Book of Parts. There are no illustrations of any type of rest or clamp(only show the rear seat iron pin)but there are the part #s for the top holders as noted by Hugh above. I just purchased a set that look identical to the 1923 Book of parts images. And they even fit my incorrect top! These also lean a bit to the inside.

[Leif Holmberg]

My friend Lennart in Piteå in the north of Sweden made his own saddles of stainless steel.Me driving and Lennart as a co driver.1927-25

 

Leif in Sweden.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

I bought leather padding for my 23 McLaughlin Buick support bracket from these folks in Oregon.  They have hardware also.  Just download their catalog.  http://www.antiqueautotophardware.com/

 

You can see the bracket on my 1923 in this pic.  

Edited December 21, 2015 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[27donb]

Here is my 27-25:

 

 

I had not seen the simpler cradle type posted in this thread until today.  I thought they were all like mine.

[Leif Holmberg]

27donb,can you show a photo of your car when the top is down.This`s how my 1925-25 looks with J-type saddles.

Leif in Sweden

[27donb]

27donb,can you show a photo of your car when the top is down.This`s how my 1925-25 looks with J-type saddles.

Leif in Sweden

 

Nope!  I've owned the car only since 2005, and the top bows are somewhat "loose" in their metal sockets, so I've never had the top down.

 

Yours and your friends model 25's are beautiful cars Leif, they look spectacular with the tops dropped!

[Leif Holmberg]

This shop in Austalia has the rigt "type",but they are to short for 1925-1927 model 25.The top will not falling down enogh with those short saddles.

We tested this Austalian made saddles on Lennarts 1927-25 but it didn`t work as well as we wanted,the top didn`t fall down low as on my 1925-25 that`s why he made his own saddles.

Leif in Sweden.

 

http://www.vintageandclassicreproductions.com/UNI-031.jpg

[hidden_hunter]

This shop in Austalia has the rigt "type",but they are to short for 1925-1927 model 25.The top will not falling down enogh with those short saddles.

We tested this Austalian made saddles on Lennarts 1927-25 but it didn`t work as well as we wanted,the top didn`t fall down low as on my 1925-25 that`s why he made his own saddles.

Leif in Sweden.

 

http://www.vintageandclassicreproductions.com/UNI-031.jpg

 

If they're made here, it's possible that they're designed for the holden bodied cars rather than the fisher's

[Leif Holmberg]

I agree h_h,but if they had made both type they could have sold a lot more of them to the rest of the world!

Leif in Sweden.

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

YOU GUYS HAVE BEAUTIFUL CARS

[dibarlaw]

As to John's comment on his 1923 McLaughlin. Which is a stunning beautiful car(even if he does not have his straps rolled up) I tried the supplier in Oregon and they had nothing close. I also saw what was available from the Australian supplier and agree with Leif it would have been great if they made both types. A lot of US made cars could use this type of saddle.

[27donb]

sorry to lazy to change the rear window frame on my 1925-25

Leif in Sweden.

 

It appears to be the original and correct shape however, which is better than the replacements available from the aftermarket (like the frame on my car).

[hidden_hunter]

I agree h_h,but if they had made both type they could have sold a lot more of them to the rest of the world!

Leif in Sweden.

 

 

might be worth contacting them to see if they can do an international version of it, it's probably a one off piece that they make on demand anyway 

[Leif Holmberg]

If you ever want to made your own rear window frame as I did.See pictures.(no it has nothing to do with a top saddle)but a lot of things can be done without big problems.

Leif in Sweden.

[27donb]

If you ever want to made your own rear window frame as I did.See pictures.(no it has nothing to do with a top saddle)but a lot of things can be done without big problems.

Leif in Sweden.

 

That is beautiful work.  The pictures make it look so easy, although I know it wasn't.

[Hubert_25-25]

Thanks for the great responses and leads.  I have sent an e-mail off to Vintage and classic reproductions to request if they would consider making these top rests with a longer drop.  I know there are several people that need these top rests besides myself.   I will let you know what they say. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by gr8success (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

Larry, Just for you.  

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Thanks John. Now I feel better! Joan and I need to come down to check out the new garage.

Happy new year to you and your family.

[Hubert_25-25]

So "Vintage and Classic" made a proposal to duplicate the correct top rests out of stainless and polished.  Basically a longer version of their UNI-031.  They would need to make a run of 16 pieces and ~$135 USD each.  I am willing to go in on this.  I would need the following. 

- I believe we are talking a "Left and a Right" (someone please verify) 

- If it is "left and right" only due to the attachment bolt and the cast part is symmetrical, perhaps we can have fewer pieces cast and work out the bolt issue. (Would only need 8 people to place the order).

- Help with knowing the year range and body styles so we can solicit others and try to get enough owners interested to make a purchase.

- I would need someone willing to let them borrow their bracket or brackets.

- Would likely need to find someone willing to make the iron studs as well.

 

If you are interested or considering this, please leave a note.

Best Regards,  Hugh

Edited January 19, 2016 by gr8success (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

The same type on both side ,as the smaller UNI-031 model they made.

Leif in Sweden.

[bradsan]

Hugh

 

I'm interested!

1925 McLaughlins used the Fisher body ( firewall plate says GM Canada) but, for some reason , their part numbers are sometimes different.

For what it is worth, The 1925 McLaughlin parts book says the following for Model 25's :

Separate listings for models 24 and 25 top rest assembly which is also interesting

737820  top rest assembly   model 25 only  - no left or right denoted and the quantity stated is 2 so I'm presuming that there is no difference

734869  top rest clamp stud   model 24-25

103454 washer 5/16 lock N.P.   ( nickel plated)

107636  hex nut 5/16-24 N.P.

730396  top rest strap 24-25 russet leather

730397 top rest strap 24-25 black leather

726321 top rest pad 24-25 russet

725382 top rest pad  24-25 black

 

Have you convinced Leif to loan you one of his top rests yet!!!!!! Or even better, and safer, can he send you a mould/pattern of his that you could have cast locally?

Edited January 30, 2016 by bradsan (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

I measured the top holder,and I think the UNI-031 needs to be lengthening about 2 1/2" and also a little bit angled as in the picture.I think it will be a solution when Larry get the top holders from unimogjohn.

Leif in Sweden.

[dibarlaw]

One concern is that the US built cars show the rear socket at the pivot turn up while Leif's turns down. The difference would probably account for the 2 1/2" difference. The longer rest on Leif's car make the top stack sockets look straight and parallel to the body.  I am going to ask around on the Cadillac forums since many of the late 20s touring/ phaetons do show the rear socket turning under.

[dibarlaw]

I found a period photo of a 1925-25 with the Burbank (tan) top and it shows the same type of rests that Leif has. It's rear prop socket is different from ours and Leif's This one appears to be straight.

 

[Leif Holmberg]

No Larry they aren`t stright,they all looks like the measuring I did earlier,just measure the last top bow from side to side and you will see that the last to bow will falling down 2-4" outside the body,that`s the reasen why they are anglet out from the body.If the top rest are stright the top bow will damage the paint on the body!

Leif in Sweden

[Leif Holmberg]

Here are 2 more pictures how it looks,and why the top rest need an angle out from the body.The top rest are not sitting on the widest part of the rear body.The red car is my 1924 Canadian Buick and the other picture from the top when laying on the top rest.

Leif in Sweden.

[Hubert_25-25]

Leif,  Thanks for the extra photos.  I think I have 4 people interested in top rest pairs so far.  With 8 there would be enough to place an order.  All of the people own 25-25 models so far.   I thought these were 1925-25 specific, but your 1924 looks to have the same brackets.  If I can solicit regarding other years or models, that would help the cause.  Are your 1924 and 25 brackets identical?  What year range do you think these are applicable to?   Hugh

[Leif Holmberg]

The brackets are identical,but I think all Buick1924 seems to have the "older" type,at least the US built cars.I have tried to find out what other car make have had ,but a lot of the other makes seems to have a shoter model,but when the top is down it`s impossible to see what they have.I think 1926 Buick has the same type of top as 1925.

Leif in Sweden.

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Is the bracket the same or different for 1924-1925 Master ?

 

Kevin
BCA # 47712

[Leif Holmberg]

All 1924 Buicks had "top holder" as in the 1924 parts books list. And in 1925 there are both "top holder" similar to 1924 ,and there are also "top rest" ,that seems to be the right name for the J-type that are using Burbank tops,that I think can be used on both Std.and Master models.(no pictures in 1925 parts book.)

Leif in Sweden

[Leif Holmberg]

I went thru my 1924 4 cyl.and 1925-1927 Std. parts books and scanned it.I also think  if the "Burbanks"top was used on 1925 Std.models(as on Master model this year) they used "top rest" instead of "top holder".In 1926 Std.parts book nothing is written about the top holder or top rest.?

 

I have had another 1925 Std 10 years ago,and that car had a little bit different top(black ,pegamoid I think)and also stright "bow socket assembly"in stead of the angled as I have ,and as is shown in the parts book.

Leif in Sweden.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Thanks to all for the great notes and pictures. 

For a 1925-25(touring), In the 1916-1932 parts book page (383), it lists left and right top holders, and there is no top rest listed for a 1925-25, but then they do list a top rest pad and a strap (for a burbank top).  Then they list a top rest clamp stud on the bottom of the page, but the 1925-25 is not in the listing.  No listing of any sort for a 1926-25(touring) even in this big book.

 

So I am back to the problem I started with.  The rearmost top bows (outside of top socket dimensions here) are 58 3/8 wide, and the front bow is 51 1/2" wide.  The top follows the taper of the bodywork when opened up, being narrower at the windsheild.  When the top is folded though,  the top sockets are progressively closer together as the stack is created.  The top clamps I have are dead ringers for the 1924 year photos.  If I use these straight top clamps on my bows though, the clamps lean in, and the mounting does not really allow this.  Does "Burbank" mean the top is narrower at the front?  

 

The top clamp on Don's 27-25 look great.  It "jogs" in at the inside top of the bracket to accommodate the top arms nesting inside and on top of each other.  It also looks taller than the ones I have which seems correct to keep from compressing the top parts too much as well.  When I search for photos of 1925 touring, I only see the "top rests".  So I am curious if a top clamp exists on a 1925 or 1926 standard touring.  That said,  I am still leaning toward the J style top rests as the solution since top clamps would be very difficult to find.   The "top rest" seem to start in 1925, as the "top holder" is ending in 1925.  The Master also looks to have "top rests" starting in 1925.  I think there is also probably some overlap into 1924.   

 

top rest -all parts catalog.pdf

 

Hugh

Edited February 4, 2016 by gr8success (see edit history)

[bradsan]

Hugh

 

Your page from the parts manual actually does list top rests for the 25-25  -   look further down the page below the top holder listings and you will  see 25S ( sport touring) and X25S ( export sport touring )

 

8.709           189186        Top rest .........................................................................................................2    1925-25S-X25S 1926-55-X55

 

It would appear that the Sport models were stripped down racing machines and achieved substantial weight savings by eliminating the bulky top holder!!!!!

I wonder what the other Sport model differences are?

 

For those same cars, it also lists

 

8.716         182521        Top Rest Clamp Stud........................................................................................2 1925-24S-25S-X25S etc etc

 

 

Which I think is the following part. We only had one so I had my FRM ( favorite retired machinist) make a pair of stainless ones. The pin diameter is about 3/8

Does this look familiar to anyone else? I haven't  quite figured out how the saddle that Leif shows would clamp onto the stud that I have as there is no slot that I can see in Leif's saddle to allow for 'clamping action'. Leif???

 

Brad

[Leif Holmberg]

bradsan,this`s how the brackets inside the body looks, and the "bolt" that goes out to the top rest.Thread 3/8" and then  5/8"-21/32" diameter.16,2 mm-16.3 mm.

In my 70 years of Buick book the 1925-25S is a Std model with 120"wb.

Pictures that where told to be a 1925-25S somewhere in US.

Leif in Sweden. 

[Hubert_25-25]

 

The top rest attachment bolt to the body is the "rear seat iron stud".  Leif, thanks for the diameter information.  I was not sure what that was.  I guess it is somewhere between 5/8 and 21/32?  I do have the length from the large parts book.  I am also a little unsure of the 2 flats on the outer end of the of this stud, and their purpose.  Is this just so the bolt can pass thru to the opposite side if the stud is turned in 1 of 2 places? Is there a special bolt that holds the top rest to the rear seat iron stud?   I can't tell how the top rest really attaches tightly to the stud.  

 

  Hugh

Edited February 6, 2016 by gr8success (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

Hugh.The 2 flats are just made for use of a tool for titening the stud to the brackets.Yes there are a special bolt to hold the top rest in right possition.The Austarlian new made top rest has a more sofisticated solution(in my opinion)with a insex bolt  inside the top rest as in the picture.

Just wonder if people took the top rest or top holder off from the car when sufflett was lying done?

Leif in Sweden.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Leif,

 

I was wondering what that part looked like.  Similar to what they call a "cotter pin" on an old bicycle crank but with a cut out that matches the shaft OD, rather than a bevel.  So the flats are used to "install" the stud, and then the cotter pin is used to hold it all in place.  Great description and photos.  Thanks again.   Hugh 

[Leif Holmberg]

Larry,there  seems to be 2 different types of top sockets at least on one of the sockets,when I "restored" this Buick 1925-25 10 years ago ,the sockets that are bolted to the body bolt in front where stright insted of angled as on the pictures.Just wonder how many assembly plants Buick had in those days ?

Leif in Sweden.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)