Select 60 for sale - maybe?

[Ronnie]

I usually have no interest in Craigslist finds but this one is an exception. It doesn't have the white wheels but it does have a white interior so  it might be a Select 60. I thought someone might be interested in checking it out.

 

1990 Buick Reatta Convertible - $6000

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[farnelle]

Interesting and good looking.  Regular 90 wheels, white body side molding and looks like pinstripe delete.  Hard to tell exact color of interior, but it does look like flame red.  Would be curious if it was a regular 90 convertible late in production that could be ordered with white/red interior?  Or maybe a select 60 that was repainted and that someone did a wheel swap.  If they had made Select 60's with coordinating white body side molding and bumper rub strips they would have been perfect in my mind.

[Guest PontiacDude210]

Maybe it was a S60 that hopped a curb, bent a rim or two and got an overhaul. I'd still love to have that interior though, S60 or not. It's beautiful.

[KDirk]

In looking again, now I'm not sure if it is flame red or burgundy and white. Looks a bit dark to be flame red to me. This one could really use a clear shot of the SPID label to establish it's true identity.

I like the Select 60 though I'm now at the point I'd prefer a burgundy over tan 'vert if I were to consider another one. Kind of did the white ane red combo to death with three coupes.

Whatever this car is (select 60 or a custom order) it looks nice.

KDirk

[Guest PontiacDude210]

I can't tell if the shadow is making flame red look burgundy, or if the light is making the burgundy look flame red. It's hard to tell.

[KDirk]

I am leaning towards Imperial62's thinking. Given it has standard 90 wheels and body color moldings I suspect this car was produced on special accomodation with white inteiror parts from the select 60. We know for a fact the white interior accents could be ordered in 1991 convertibles due to there being extra parts left over and from these cars have been seen and verified to exist with both red and blue interior accent colors. I could easily see this being offered off the books in late 90 after select 60 production wrapped up.

Clearly the same could have been done with burgundy accents in 90, and so I am thinking someone had some pull and got a burgundy and white interior in an otherwise standard 90 convertible. As already pointed out the only way to truly verify what this is would be to check the SPID label. I wish someone had the inclination and ability to do so. I don't want to be a tire kicker and hassle the owner with a bunch of questions sijce I'm not buying or I'd get in touch and ask. Anyone local to this car who might want to approach the seller?

KDirk

[Guest MrNova]

If it is on the SPID label, would that not also show up on the production number reports that have been compiled that a white conv was built in this combo?

[KDirk]

SPID label has all codes that applied to the build of a particular VIN. This information was likely the in same database used by GM to generate the build data sheets that Barney and Marck had worked the production figures from. However, the build sheets do not contain the full breakout of every option on the cars listed. These lists showed the interior, exterior, rub moulding and convertible top colors as built as well as the seat type (6 or 16 way) and cd player or not for 90/91 models. If I'm not mistaken it also showed whether they had a sunroof or not. Believe they also show if white wheels were installed (90/91 select 60 and special order option cars). Finally I think it listed the destination dealership for each car.

And I won't rehash the arguments for and against non-documented special or custom cars. Suffice it to say I believe there was an unusual amount of flexibility offered in spec'ing options like non-recommended color combos on a Reatta but I am also confident in saying some of the previously made claims of outlandish things like custom made upholstery or non-GM paint colors being done at the factory are generally bogus. It is pretty clear that if GM did something that was a GM option - a part or paint color or what have you - it would have an RPO code and this code would be on the SPID sticker even if it was for something not normally offered for a given model. It would also usually trigger an override RPO code to indicate something non-standard was done on a particular car (like a trim override code for a color combo that wouldn't normally be offered or built) or mixed color interior like white and red/blue.

KDirk

Edited December 22, 2015 by KDirk (see edit history)

[Guest MrNova]

^{Has there been any documented Reatta's that varied from what was on their SPID or how they were reported built?  Not hearsay, but actual known documented ones.}

 

^{On the one shown, it appears the paint is rather glossy and nice for the mileage, I am betting it has had a total repaint and the white wheels which often got ugly were replaced with a nice set of regular wheels instead of restoring the white wheels.  I would also have to wonder about a reupholster job, again the white seats appear pretty perfect for white leather with that mileage.} 

 

^{I saw further back where there was a blue one that someone had reupholster with a white interior.} 

[Booreatta]

I agree with Kevin I looks like it is not the flame red but with the white seats that look new and the white door panels it has the look of a S60. On the other hand I have never seen or heard of a S60 with body color rub strips. All of the photos and cars I have seen they are always black. I think Barney has a list of all S 60 maybe he can shed some light.

[KDirk]

To my knowledge no one has put forth a verifiable instance of a car that was custom that had an SPID label that didn't give some indication in one or more RPO codes that it was factory built that way.

The problem with the notion that custom builds were done without documenting it on the SPID label is that opens the door to anyone claiming anything out of the oridary (like a non-stock paint color or special upholstery color, embroidery pattern, etcetera) was factory built that way. When it comes to judging you can see where this would be a big problem insofar as verifying the veracity of such claims as "factory built".

Now, there are undoubtedly some owners who would benefit from making such claims as it would potentially keep them from being docked points on 400 point judging. There are also some who would probably try to inflate the selling price of a unique Reatta by claiming it was a one-off custom factory build, if the Reatta ever appreciates to a true sought after collector car. So, you can see from these examples where lack of documentation together with the claim that "we don't need no stinkin' documentation, that's how it was built!" would create a problem for ensuring the provenance of such cars as legit factory custom jobs. Thus, my attitude is tell those making such a claim to back it up with an order form or some other legit documentation from the time the car was built showing that it was built that way. Anything that cannot be proven to be factory original in turn has to be presumed to be modified after it left the assembly plant and the value of the car adjusted accordingly.

And really, there is no reason to believe such truly custom unusal cars were accomodated at the factory. This wasn't Ferrari building these cars where the upholstery is hand stitched right at the assembly plant to customer specs by an artisan assigned to complete the entire interior and the customer can get anything they want likited only by budget. The seats, door panels and rear interior trim as well as the carpet and plastics in the Reatta were made offsite by a subcontractor (VOPLEX, and their name is stamped all over these parts so there is no disputing it) and sent complete and ready to install in a car by Craft Centre staff. So, no one can claim that purple leather seats with yellow French double stitching was installed in the car at the factory because there was no on site upholstery shop in Lansing to accomodate a request like that.

Past arguments on this subject have centered around the kinds of claims I gave examples of above. Simply put, I'm not buying it. While the Reatta was made by a unique assembly process and was certainly more flexible in accomodating customer requests for things that might not have been done so easily for other conventionally assembled vehicles, it was not a hand built to order vehicle such as you got from Ferrari, Lamborghini or Rolls Royce. They weren't offering custom hand polished book matched birds eye maple trim inlays on the dash and center console, quilted suede headliners or your name embroidered in the seatbacks. You got what was spec'd by Buick as standard equipment with five options (outside of color combos): cd player, sunroof, 16 way seats (that really weren't), body color side moldings instead of black and pin stripe delete. In 91 they added the options of white wheels (only on cars with white exteriors) and white interior trim package on the convertibles with a choice of flame red or dark blue contrasting color. This was still 1980's bean-counting GM we are talking about here. They were not in the business of such frivolity.

KDirk

[Guest MrNova]

I have seen a few pretty beat looking Select 60's cross ebay over the last few years - I think there was even one not long ago with front end damage and a bad tranny that looked pretty beat.

[Guest Select60]

]I don not think this is a Select 60, as the picture of the interior is the one used to advertise my Select 60 when it for sale on Hemmings a few years ago, just cropped. Here is the picture:

 

 

[Guest MrNova]

That throws a wrench in things

[KDirk]

And there we have it. If however the picture was borrowed from another seller then I have concerns over what the interior actually looks like. Were the seats replicated in correct stitching pattern? How well done were the door panels? Did he offer any explanation for using a "file" photo rather than his own?

Just curious.

KDirk

[KDirk]

Ok. Based on the post in which it was asserted this car currently for sale expropriated someone else's old photo I wasn't sure what to think of this whole thing. Could just be the two photos are that close in the way they were taken (angle, position etc.). The two pictures do look awfully close to being the same excepting the fact that one looks more burgundy and the other more red. I certainly don't want to accuse the seller of this car of doing anything untoward.

The fact he had the seats redone certainly would explain how clean the white leather looks now with about 130,000 on the clock. I guess the rear interior quarter trim was also redone in white at the same time as the door panels.

KDirk

[Ronnie]

If you zoom in on both photos there is what appears to be the same set of keys with remote on the center console. Not much doubt in my mind that the photo in the CL ad and the photo posted by Select60 are the same.

[Guest MrNova]

Look in the ashtray on both pictures, the same object appears in both pictures

[Guest MrNova]

Whoops, Ronnie already said that

[Ronnie]

Just my opinion -  I don't think the seller can be believed at all.   I'm not an expert on photos but I don't see any signs of a white interior through the windows of the white car shown in the ad. You guys judge for yourself.

 

[KDirk]

Door panels, pull straps and rear quarter trim also look to be factory white parts, not recovered. Very difficult to recover those pieces with their compound curves using normally available sierra grain vinyl and still look like factory parts. Also, in the straight on view in the first picture you can see the upper 1/3 of the seats. They look white to you? Rather odd...

Edit: Ronnie beat me to it. Rear quarter trim in front on pic is also clearly dark (burgundy).

KDirk

Edited December 23, 2015 by KDirk (see edit history)

[Guest MrNova]

While obviously the picture is a fake - I would mention that instead of recovering a door panel, or any of the white plastic or vinyl,  if it is in good condition, it could easily be dyed/painted by an upholsterer and you would never know.  I have seen some done that I was shocked to learn didn't start out the color that was underneath the results are so good.