Restorer32

Wheels

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Restorer32    476

A question re BCA judging if you don't mind. Two'53 Skylarks showed up at a show, both impeccably restored. One is wearing beautifully restored original wire wheels, the other close but not exact reproduction wires. Would the car with the original wheels be at an advantage points wise?

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Restorer32    476

Of course, but in such a situation would the car with not quite right repro wheels be given a deduction? If not, then what is the incentive to restore a car properly ? What do the BCA judging guidelines mean by "Check for correct wheels for year and model. Incorrect wheels result in a 10 point mandatory deduction"? If correct wheels are available shouldn't an owner who went to the effort to restore a set of original wheels be rewarded for his effort?

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Guest DadsReatta   
Guest DadsReatta

Here we go again, it's obvious this is going to be a divided subject, thoses that go the extra mile to do a correct restoration, and those that don't. The bigger question is just where do you draw the line of what is correct and what is acceptable. The further into the acceptable side we slide the further away from originality and correctness we slide. Is is right that a car that

has been restored painstakingly to exacting standards has no benefit in judging as one that hasn't been restored to the same originality?

What would happen if you had a 53 Skylark in the archival class that someone tossed on a set of reproduction wheels?

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Bhigdog    809

If a part has been "restored" by repair/refinish/replication of any kind or sort it is NOT original. It may look original and by your logic therefore be correct but it is not.

I would literally bet the farm that there is not a single highly awarded car in the country that is "correct" or "original" in that it is exactly as it would have been when it left the factory.

To insist other wise and sneer at as good a replication as practically possible is to descend into snobbery and arrogance.....Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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Restorer32    476

So you are saying that even where original parts are available that could be restored you are perfectly ok with a close but not exact replacement in place of a refinished original?

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Restorer32    476

And no one is sneering. I have no problem with the replacement wheels but wouldn't a refinished original be closer to the mission statement of the club to encourage the preservation and restoration of cars to a condition as close as practical to the way they left the dealership?

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JZRIV    533

Of course, but in such a situation would the car with not quite right repro wheels be given a deduction? If not, then what is the incentive to restore a car properly ? What do the BCA judging guidelines mean by "Check for correct wheels for year and model. Incorrect wheels result in a 10 point mandatory deduction"? If correct wheels are available shouldn't an owner who went to the effort to restore a set of original wheels be rewarded for his effort?

Interesting viewpoint. Since BCA is not concourse level judging I don't think scoring high in a BCA show should be the incentive at all. Certainly it can be a nice collateral effect though. Instead, the incentive to restore properly should be because the restorer is part historian and believes in the importance to preserve history as accurately as possible so the car they restore will best reflect how it rolled off the production line for generations to come. When a person restores a car their name may stay with it in future owners and sometimes even after they are dead and gone. So in addition anyone who takes pride in their work has natural incentive to restore correctly for that reason alone.

With the term restoration being so watered down and diminished by slap it together auto TV shows and Chinese reproduction parts these days, the true restorations done without shortcuts will always stand above all others in the eyes of the discriminating enthusiast. Problem is true restoration work is terribly expensive and rarely can it be justified from a cost perspective. Because of that standards tend to get lowered to reflect the reality of the hobby.

It has been my experience that its best for anyone who enters a car in any form of judging should be mentally prepared to be disappointed. Going in with high expectations is setting oneself up for a letdown.

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Bhigdog    809

So you are saying that even where original parts are available that could be restored you are perfectly ok with a close but not exact replacement in place of a refinished original?

Nope not saying that at all. Just responding to the claim that a certain car is restored to "originality" or "correctness" when it obviously can be neither when a part has been "restored" since it then is not as originally manufactured. Splitting hairs maybe but someone has to say it .............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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Bhigdog    809

And no one is sneering. I have no problem with the replacement wheels but wouldn't a refinished original be closer to the mission statement of the club to encourage the preservation and restoration of cars to a condition as close as practical to the way they left the dealership?

I totally agree. I also agree with your use of the wording "as practical"...............Bob

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Guest DadsReatta   
Guest DadsReatta

So according to the chief judges statement, the fact alone that repop wire wheels do not require tubes should make them incorrect per his statement.

Edited by DadsReatta (see edit history)

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MrEarl    3,046

Ben, I love a good debate as long as it doesn't turn personal and attacking the character of the members and becomes an argument for sake of arguing as a previous one did.

Peace brothers...and sisters...

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buick5563    782

Isn't the point that upon close inspection that a knowledgable judge can tell an inauthentic reproduction?

From ten feet away, you can tell a Coker tire has a completely wrong rib pattern in the sidewall, but I have never heard complaints of bad reproductions.

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JohnD1956    2,018

Mike, that can be expanded to other parts of the car too. If someone should be penalized for a reproduction wire wheel just because it does not require a tube, then, for a true restoration, anyone with perfect body panel gap alignment should also be penalized.  I am glad that the BCA judging system is lenient enough not to require either deduction.  

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The Old Guy    35

I have lived in the Flint Mich area all my life , and have seen Buicks come off the assembly line for many years, ( and I am OLD ) 

In all this time, I have NEVER seen a perfect car built by Buick. 

  None have perfect paint or door fits, and there is always something wrong with the interiors. 

 In todays world, the BCA has decided that any Buick driven to the national meets are "second class" and should not be seen with the "Trailer Queens", 

   I was once quite active in the BCA, and helped start the  "Buicktown " chapter ,and also helped start the BDE (I was BDE 001,and the first director of the Buicktown Chapter) and decided after the 2009 meet in Colorado that the club had evolved into something other than members that enjoyed Cars.( I drove a Buick to every National from 1971 to 2009) 

    These discussions over judging convinced me that I did the RIGHT thing when I quit

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NTX5467    575

 From my general observations, the repos ALWAYS usually have some details which are "generic" and not completely OEM is appearance.

 

I ALSO seem to recall that such a discussion happened at the last Arizone meet, years ago.  Now, this is "hearsay", but from a reliable source . . . that many from the CA area showed up with Buicks at that meet, in the 400 Point Judging, with the repro wire wheels on them.  They felt they were "close enough", but the meet judges said "No", so the mandatory deductions were applied, as they should have been (in my way of thinking from my interpretation of the BCA rules). 

 

Over the years, from looking at "restored" cars of all kinds at shows and otherwise, IF the owner uses a known repro part that is significantly similar to an OEM item, many feel that's "good enough" (as they find it less expensive to get the repro rather than invest the time/money to get the original item and then get it/them restored)  . . . usually will take some other "liberties" on what they did to the vehicle (either in quality or lesser-execution of repairs) in other parts of the vehicle.  I know that last sentence does not meet the hypothetical question, but if you look hard enough, you'll probably find that the "repro-item" car can be lacking in how other things were done on the vehicle.  Plus, the vehicle might also be "over-restored", which gains no points in the BCA scheme of things.  End result, the very-possibly-more-correct vehicle with the OEM-spec wire wheels could out-score the "repro wheel" vehicle.

 

Now, IF the BCA operatives might decide that the repro wheels are "acceptable, with a minor point deduction" (due to possible supply issues of finding the real thing, or similar), THEN it would be a different discussion.  But to me, we DON'T need another "flap" similar to the prior "radial tires and halogen headlights" discussion of decades ago!

 

5563, as for the "rib design" on your repro BFGs, the one pictured is more like the BFG Silvertowns of the circa 1963, after the edges got worn down from cornering wear.  "Superceded parts", to me, but of the correct size designation for the '55 vehicles.

 

I strongly concur with The Old Guy's observation that "end of the assembly line" does NOT guarantee a "perfect vehicle".  There were paint surface issues, molding alignment issues, excess sealer drips, and such.  But if those are painfully replicated when a vehicle is restored, then observers can wonder if the restoration shop did a good job or what!  So, the restored vehicles usually are nicer than any vehicle built on that same assembly line . . . be it much better paint (whether the original paint system or not), nicer molding alignments, door gaps and such tweaked for the "best fit" . . . as WE want to be proud of the vehicle and such things can enhance the pride of ownership somewhat.

 

If you really want to get picky about "originality" . . . a vehicle is only original ONCE, which is prior to the first oil change of its life.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)

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buick5563    782

Sorry Willis,

I wasn't clear in my post earlier.

I posted the picture of the BFG as what I personally interpret as the correct rib pattern of mid-50's tires. This rib pattern is shown in the service manual as well as various period literature. The Coker branded tire was the rib style in question, along of course with the fact that there was never a company at that time called Coker.

They are obvious from ten feet to be incorrect, but if they are bias ply and the proper size They are allowed in BCA judging. I don't know about the AACA.

Look, I am not even arguing this point. Merely trying to give more food for thought. Much like the other thread I started yesterday. We have jumped on one issue that (IN MY NON-BCA SANCTIONED OPINION) is more difficult to notice versus other much more glaring errors in restoration. I have heard and even made the "argument" that if "this" is incorrect, then what else did they scrimp on. Anybody who has ever restored a car can tell immediately if a car was done correctly. There are cues. C'mon...you guys can tell within a minute of walking up to a car the degree of restoration. We, as restorers, don't get fooled by shiny paint. We see the stainless line up. We see proper headed fender bolts that weren't bought at Lowes. We see tight seams in upholstery. We see different sheens of black in the engine compartment. You AACA peeps know this to be true.

I want to know these answers because I have been a team captain before. Perhaps I was just handing out high medals for no apparent reason. I do know that I had a Senior car not repeat because it was painted an incorrect color, which of course put me on the hard-ass judge side of the argument.

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Imperial62    307

So according to the chief judges statement, the fact alone that repop wire wheels do not require tubes should make them incorrect per his statement.

No. An inner tube is not visual during judging.  Many judged cars run reproduction tires and many of those are radials with the appearance of bias ply. Tires, batteries etc are considered consumables.   I would not expect any archival car to try touring on dated tires, batteries, maybe hoses and so on.  It's cool to see, but the BCA does more then just show the cars.  As with most clubs including the AACA, cars are driven and best enjoyed in their element.

 

So whether a wheel/tire is tubed or not is not relevant to points deduction. 

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Imperial62    307

Isn't the point that upon close inspection that a knowledgable judge can tell an inauthentic reproduction?

From ten feet away, you can tell a Coker tire has a completely wrong rib pattern in the sidewall, but I have never heard complaints of bad reproductions.

Mike

Would Coker not be trying a 'hybrid' of the tires available for 1954, 1955, etc?  In other words, do we as a community expect Coker to reproduce the OEM tires for a 1954 Buick and a 1954 Packard and a 1954 Chrysler and a ....

 

Or is the Coker Tire a representation of the tires from the era?  I don't know, I have not opened a Coker catalog in years. Again I believe tires are consumables and as long as the tires look period correct, are safe, don't have obvious wear, then they would receive no deduction from me.

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buick5563    782

Me either, but it says Coker Classic really big on the side. It is a very obvious flaw that GM (or Ford) never could have had on the sidewall. At least Firestone and Goodrich could have been on the car. So is using a brand that didn't exist at that time considered lazy?

Jake, you and I have been sideways in the distant past, right? Not to the point of name-calling, but we have always at least (if I recall) had arguments about differing opinions. Just reiterating that discourse lets us grow. Plus, I respect your opinions even if we don't agree.

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