BUKE Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I would like to know who do I need to ask about a judging mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Frank, Rick Schick of Illinois was the Head Judge for the Springfield meet. His contact info is in the Bugle, with the list of Board members. Missed seeing you at Hershey! I sat and visited with Vic at your space, but you were out shopping, I guess. Pete Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 Thank's pete see you in allentown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Can judging errors even be reversed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MrNova Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Only in regard to authenticity not condition - if you have something taken off for authenticity and you can prove that it indeed correct, then the head judge can make a ruling change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 I had authenticity issue on my1996 roadmaster they mistakenly took of points for the vinyl roof said it was not factory issue. As I was on the field judging the captain called me and ask isaid it was and thought nothing more. she ask (as she should have)Rick he did not have the answer so he took off the points without getting back to me..The points he took off cut me from gold to silver.I called him and he said he was sorry but to try next time.all he had to do was look up 1996 buick roadmaster collector edtion or call me.it is in the owners book. any help getting my gold would be appreciated. have a great BUICK day BUKE (FRANK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Frank, Since I have seen and heard so much talk about judges not "killing the car", it's a shame you were not given the benefit of the doubt on the show field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I'm sorry that happened to you Frank, and it has happened to me also. But I look at it this way: they missed or overlooked some real issues that would have resulted in the same or more points lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 IF the vehicle was factory-built with a vinyl roof, which I seem to remember that a vast majority of such Roadmasters had one, THEN the vinyl roof code should be on the Service Parts Information Decal "label" on the underside of the deck lid or on the spare tire "cover board" under the luggage compartment's carpet. NO mistaking that! As I recall, ONLY the base models had "exposed, painted steel" roofs, but genuine Collectors Edition cars should have been fully-optioned with a vinyl roof in that standard equipment mix. The issue might have been the "grain" of the vinyl roof, rather than if it had one from the factory. As if it was "dealer-installed" and they put the incorrect grain of vinyl on it rather than the factory-production vinyl? Not sure if you purchased the car new, so I'm just mentioning scenarios. PM me the VIN and I'll see what I can determine for you. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Willis may be on to something........it may not be an issue of having a vinyl roof but the color, or grain.There is very little room on the judging sheet for the judge to be specific, sometimes you cannot read what the judge wrote, sometime they don't explain.There is also the issue of new judges.....seems as if they are always short of judges and the national meet is the only "training" ground for new judges. The experienced judges are supposedto look after the new judges but sometimes things slip thru. If you don't already have the judging sheet in your hand, you can request a copy from the BCA office.Last, the owner is supposed to be with the car when it is judged......did the captain question you about anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscheib Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Barney, I think already mentioned he was judging another class, left his cell phone number and had a conversation with the judging captain. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I did not judge Franks car, but on the several teams I have been on, each Captain required a reason and remark about the deduction. If there was no remark for a deduction then I would hope the administration team would by pass the item as if that was an errant mark. But I have not served on an administration team so my comment is not a criticism. Have you contacted the National Chief Judge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 I to wish the chief judge would come on and explain in writing or someone who is in charge.I thank all who replied but as angry as I am I will still be there at the next judging meet and do my best to help judge(. NTX5467 the vin#1g4bt52p8tr417742 have a great BUICK day BUKE (FRANK0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DadsReatta Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Could we see a picture of said roof? Both close-up and a little further back. It was VERY COMMON on the cars at that time to have aftermarket roof treatments installed. If it was dealer installed in something other than the correct vinyl roof treatment as NTX mentioned then the deduction was certainly warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 . . . which is why decoding the SPID label is needed, at least to determine IF the car had a vinyl roof from when it was built in Arlington. Sales literature would detail the correct grain, as would an Order Guide for the partcular model year. It wasn't too long ago that Pete showcased that gen of Roadmaster in "The Bugle", which could possibly provide some visual information on vinyl roof grain AND the possible added trim items on the factory vinyl-roofed cars. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 (edited) Could we see a picture of said roof? Both close-up and a little further back. It was VERY COMMON on the cars at that time to have aftermarket roof treatments installed. If it was dealer installed in something other than the correct vinyl roof treatment as NTX mentioned then the deduction was certainly warranted. The topic deals with judging. In this particular instance I was thinking the same thing. The factory installed a landau top that covered the rear passenger compartment with a stainless trim band across the roof. If the top extends to the top of the windshield it would be an aftermarket accessory. There are a lot of those out there on both Roadmasters and Fleetwoods. Some call them a "Florida" top. Here is my old RM. If it looks like that it is factory. If it looks different the factory didn't do it. That's from the 1991-1996 Roadmaster tech guy in the Bugle. Now the sticky question. If it was a 1948 Roadmaster with a Derham top would it be allowed. Since Derham was a recognized coachbuilder of the period when the car was new it would be. And Derham would install a top without major coachbuilding. So what constitutes "recognized"? Being a licensed, tax paying business at the time the car was built would be a good start. Is there a judging definition of "recognized"? Uncle Sam taking tax dollars is recognition enough for me. I couldn't find a picture of one but we have all seen them on Mercury Marquis. As these cars become more common at judged events a policy should be agreed upon.Bernie Edited November 15, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DadsReatta Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Yep, anything other than the quarter roof cap shown would be aftermarket. Here are just a few examples of aftermarket ones. I think back in the day, the factory recognized various coachbuilders and mostly the chassis was sent directly to the coachbuilder from the factory prior to going to the dealership or the customer - although certainly lots of cars were sent to coachbuilders after delivery for special touches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thriller Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Once the judging is done it is final. Otherwise, what is to stop people from continually going after the judging chair year-round? Of course there could also be unscrupulous members who would go home, fix an issue, and then complain. Can of worms opened and virtually impossible to get the top back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 The topic deals with judging. In this particular instance I was thinking the same thing. The factory installed a landau top that covered the rear passenger compartment with a stainless trim band across the roof. If the top extends to the top of the windshield it would be an aftermarket accessory. There are a lot of those out there on both Roadmasters and Fleetwoods. Some call them a "Florida" top. Here is my old RM.20016.JPG If it looks like that it is factory. If it looks different the factory didn't do it. That's from the 1991-1996 Roadmaster tech guy in the Bugle. Now the sticky question. If it was a 1948 Roadmaster with a Derham top would it be allowed. Since Derham was a recognized coachbuilder of the period when the car was new it would be. And Derham would install a top without major coachbuilding. So what constitutes "recognized"? Being a licensed, tax paying business at the time the car was built would be a good start. Is there a judging definition of "recognized"? Uncle Sam taking tax dollars is recognition enough for me. I couldn't find a picture of one but we have all seen them on Mercury Marquis. As these cars become more common at judged events a policy should be agreed upon.Bernieyes that is the same as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 Once the judging is done it is final. Otherwise, what is to stop people from continually going after the judging chair year-round? Of course there could also be unscrupulous members who would go home, fix an issue, and then complain. Can of worms opened and virtually impossible to get the top back on.Yes Derek you are almost right but with a authenticity issue I been told they can look back and an a just .That being said the reel Question is if nobody at the meet took the time to look or ask (other then the team captain) me .then I think the owner should have been giving the benefit of the doubt. have a great BUICK day BUKE (FRANK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DadsReatta Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Once the judging is done it is final. Otherwise, what is to stop people from continually going after the judging chair year-round? Of course there could also be unscrupulous members who would go home, fix an issue, and then complain. Can of worms opened and virtually impossible to get the top back on.Would be nice to hear from the head judge on this topic, it has always been my understanding that if there is an unwarranted authenticity deduction and you can prove otherwise they can be reversed by the head judge of the BCA. I know for a fact this happened with one of my dads cars, a deduction was made and when he got his judging sheets he was able to prove that the authenticity wasn't correct and the points were added back on and he went from a silver to a gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 I asked the head judge it is sad to say he did not know the answer. I wish a board member would step up and give me a answer. Have a great buick DAY BUKE (FRANK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Could I please receive the full VIN? NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 And post pictures of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Could I please receive the full VIN? NTX5467I did try to pm you with the vin# I don't know how to up load picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 I will try to reach out to the NCJ John Steed one more time.I am disappointed that nobody from BCA did not come in with any suggestions Have a great BUICK day BUKE (FRANK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MrNova Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Seems to me several people have asked you for pictures, offered to look up your car via vin to see if it originally had a top - you can't get info if you are not willing to provide needed info. There are enough of us on here that no the Roadmaster well to give you a yes or no as to it's correctness if we could see good pictures of it. You could go from there. You also should have a brochure and any other factual info to make your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) I did receive the VIN about a week ago, in a PM. I have decoded it and, after some additional research, have determined what the vehicle was "born with". His vehicle is a Limited with an extensive option list, including the available self-sealing tires. It appears that with the newer models, knowledge of the Service Parts Information Decal will be necessary. I have advised BUKE of my research in a PM. NTX5467 Edited December 6, 2015 by NTX5467 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Seems to me several people have asked you for pictures, offered to look up your car via vin to see if it originally had a top - you can't get info if you are not willing to provide needed info. There are enough of us on here that no the Roadmaster well to give you a yes or no as to it's correctness if we could see good pictures of it. You could go from there. You also should have a brochure and any other factual info to make your case. [/quot I am sorry if hurt ANY member feeling I had a lot feed back from everbody on the form and I truly appreciate it.What I meant to say was I was disappointed that the B C A board member did not address the situation. again I thank everbody who helped. (ps. I still can not figure out how to upload pictures) I will have to ask one of my grandchildren.LOL Have a great BUICK day BUKE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MrNova Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) Other than the national chief judge the board members would be no more in tune with your question than any other members, remember they are only members that got elected to the board. They are certainly not experts in every make and model Buick or even in the judging process for that matter. They do not step into the judging issues, that is why there is a nation chief judge. If your roof has anything other than the rear quarter cap, such as a full vinyl roof you can be assured that it is not factory, but possibly a dealer or aftermarket Ad on. Even if a dealer would have added it prior to delivering the car, if it differs from the actual top that was available it would certainly be a deduction as they have to be as they came from the factory or approved Buick accessories. If a dealer had gone to the trouble of ordering the molding needed and the actual vinyl from the factory and added it as it would've originally appeared, that would be considered correct. Lots of roadmasters came without vinyl roof treatment and certainly lots had aftermarket tops put on them. It is a very simple process, you need to get a factory brochure for your car, easily found on eBay and simply look at the roof treatment, if your car has the exact same roof treatment then you have a case, if it differs then you do not. I believe there was a picture posted earlier of the proper order pop, so there again if your top differs from It then your top is not correct. Edited December 7, 2015 by MrNova (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Here's the image for the C04 Roadmaster Padded Roof Option, from the GMParts databaseon the www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com website. To enlarge, left click on the image. NTX5467 Edited December 9, 2015 by NTX5467 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUKE Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Thank you for the image it is exactly like mine I will call the chife judge and I will let everybody Know the outcome.Thank's for all your help. have a Great BUICK day BUKE Edited December 10, 2015 by BUKE (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I see the other discussion about "correct" wire wheels has been closed. This discussion is somewhat similar and some of you might be interested in what a "judge" (not BCA) has to say. See the January issue of Hemmings....page 8... "Judging Cars" article by Richard Lentinello, Executive Editor of Hemmings Someone might have the talent to make a link to the article, I don't know how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 ONE problem, as the SPID does not specify "C04" on it, then you'd probably need some documentation from the selling dealer that "somebody" did indeed order the factory option (as pictured) in all of its smaller pieces and such to replicate the factory item. I don't recall a GM Accessory Kit to do such, as the aftermarket versions (some possibly very close to the original) were usually much less expensive. It would also be good to also find a sales brochure for your year of Roadmaster for additional documentation, as had been suggested. In other words, if you need to "make your case", as I believe the BCA Judging Manual states, you'll need some documentation to support your side of the situation. Happy Holidays!NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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