Native 0ne Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Hello All, Bought a title for a 1953 Packard Patrician, ( of course as a historical document ) yada, yada, yada... Didn't get the vin tag with it so, which number do I put on the NEW, old tag..The title is from California and was last dated 1964...Here is some info: Engine or ID number L607328.Body type SDEX2651.Tab number 2461778..... Anyone know which numbers are stamped on the tag for the vin number, mine is inside of the door and will stay there permanently, the door are welded shut( rat rod )...car was rusted beyond saving so instead of junking it it is now a step over Roadster with no windshield, sorry !Any help is appreciated.ThanksTodd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Don Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I am a licensed VIN verifier who also owns Packards and whenever the driver door pillar VIN tag isn’t available, I use the anti-theft number on the passenger side of the firewall. Even if the current paperwork has the engine number, it can be switched over fairly easily. Before you do it, you should call the DMV to be sure that the car isn't currently in their system since, if it is, it might cause some grief since the title was purchased. Edited October 16, 2018 by Packard Don (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstatman Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 "the door are welded shut( rat rod )...car was rusted beyond saving so instead of junking it it is now a step over Roadster with no windshield" G'day Todd, Sounds interesting and I'd like to see some pic's, if that's possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native 0ne Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Hi Don, and others, there is no paper to the car, owner couldn't find the title, it was from his fathers estate and this guy had TONS of stuff, the son was not organized. Of course when I bought it he said he would find it BUT....you know the rest of the story.....that's been several years ago, take the money and run story...so I purchased a title. This title is from a parts car in California, doubt if it's even in the "system" being that the last registration date was 1964....??? I'm in Ohio, local DMV wouldn't know a Packard from a Hudson...so when I took in a 1939 Hudson 2 door sedan, she say's what kind of car is that...I just want a title to tag and enjoy the car when finished, PLUS I can say " it's a California car"..haha.AND as stated the legal tag is forever hidden in the driver side door jamb...they will not even know where the correct location for the vin plate is or where it is supposed to be, " just show me the money " kind of deal....I just need to know WHICH number is correct for the vin....I will do the rest.Thanks for your help in this matter, PS the plate on the fire wall can disappear, "I don't know what happened to it " didn't know one was there...The other set on the passenger side that is raised into the metal they won't have a clue why they are there, they just want their money for title and tags...for years,instead of this car going away and they get NO MONEY, make sense... Here's an image of the whacked Packard... https://www.dropbox.com/s/41dfju03irg78p1/IMG_0512.JPG?dl=0 Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Don Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Although Packard used door jamb tags, often the title used either the engine number or, even the anti-theft firewall number. It's not a plate but is a number that is actually stamped in large numbers on the upper passenger side. The only way to remove them is to cut a gaping hole! Taking to you, it occurred to me that I probably have spare 1953 titles too or at least some early '50s! I've parted out several and probably even still have the engines that go with them. Edited October 16, 2018 by Packard Don (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Don Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I can't open the photo. How about adding directly to this post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) "Packard did not use door jamb tags so nothing is hidden there". I beg to differ Don, the car is a 1953 and Packard put the vehicle number on the driver's side door jamb from 1951 to the end of 1956. And the proper way to title the car is by it's "vehicle number", not withstanding that as these cars became older and adulterated that some states resorted to titling them as used cars with the engine number. Packard provided the Secretary of State of each individual state with model names, weights, the range of vehicle numbers and other information specifically for each state to know how to differentiate and title cars when new. Edited October 13, 2015 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Don Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 It's really been decades since I worked on any of mine so you are probably right and thank you for the correction! That's what happens when going from memory! Even so, I would likely not use it in a verification (unless the owner insisted) as the non-removable anti-theft number is a better choice. All of my Packards are titled that way. The fun ones were in titling my Henneys since they are legally Henney-Packard which I was finally able to convince the state so my Henney titles have the make as HENPACK (or several close variations). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native 0ne Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 So....thanks for all the history lessons, but...again as ask in the first post, what number am I to use on a plate to title this car....and YES for sure there is and was a door jamb tag on this car, but that is history now as well... Not trying to burst any ones bubble here, forum's tend to get off the subject quick, which this one has....sorry but true... Just trying to ask some informed experts what number should be used, I have read up on how they were titled, by jamb plate and know about the anti theft number on the fire wall ( can't miss those ), but don't know about a California title system...and what number is correct.Rat rod guys run into this all the time, NO TITLE in the ad, so more times than any, that is why they become junk or a Rat Rod...They just pay for a title, hopefully from a scraper or reputable parts guy, and punch a plate and wallah, your driving....DMV people just are there to make sure the number on the title matches what is on the car...PRE COMPUTER, most states went off the registration, until ???? depended on the the state. As stated before DMV workers don't know what kind of car it is or where to even start to look for the VIN plate, so an aluminum plate stamped with the appropriate title number, AGED of course, would suffice...or am I whistling Dixie here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH56 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) In that era California and several other states used the motor number. Vehicle ID numbers were a secondary choice. As Don said, the engine can be changed so the number changes and causes grief at times. In your case, since you have a title that used the motor number L607328 and if it still has a similar engine and number I would go ahead and use that. If it still has an engine you can verify the number stamped on the drivers side of block -- most likely on a pad above the starter motor and just below the head. If not above the starter, some engines had a smoothed place on the block around the distributor area where the number was stamped. If the engine has been changed and that number is gone or different then it gets complicated. You might be able to convince them the tag is in the welded door (that is the location of the 2651-XXXX Vehicle ID number) but If your luck is anything like mine the inspector or clerk I went to would be the one person at DMV who still knew anything about Packards. There could be a 2651 number on the small Briggs tag and still attached to the firewall on engine side somewhere in the area up high roughly in front of the driver. That tag may not have the same last 4 or 5 digits as the official number since there was often a variation between Briggs numbers and official Packard numbers but it would be a start. If neither is found and If the same engine number can't be used I would try to convince them the engine self destructed and was changed and see if the inspector would assign a new title to the thief proof number. Edited October 13, 2015 by HH56 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native 0ne Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Hey Don and HH56, I am in Ohio (stated in the second post I wrote ), so the California issued info does not apply....I am NOT using the original engine (which I have) a 9 main bearing 327...whoopee, so another issue that won't apply...I just wanted to know which of those numbers would be best from the California numbers stated in first post, , I am using a small block 5.7 liter with a 700r4 trans, and I am using the California title that I bought to re title this car it came from Kentucky...wow that"s a lot of goofy information to figure out...sorry about this, it's not going to be historically accurate, but I want the car on the road without the State Patrol involved, or filling out multiple form for x number of dollars and waiting months upon month to get info that I have to fill out a b and c form and that more money NO,NO,NO... had friends get titles to multiple cars by buying titles this way. Heck one dude has a Model A cowling registered as a Studebaker...so this should be a piece of cake.. PS how do you post a picture on here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native 0ne Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Don, So how do you title the car with no title...I have read they take the VIN number off the tag, run it through the system to see if it's stolen...if not then you have to apply for a duplicate title, 50.00 for the form, take it to the State Patrol ( in Ohio, complete butt holes) as I had a Custom Chopper done this way, they have to see every receipt for all parts, bill of sale, it will need turn signals, horn, yada, yada, yada......no way I'm going that route...As stated most rat rod dudes just get a title stamp a tag with the purchased title, attach it to the car and BANG, a title in your name..MY QUESTION has always been from the California title I have which number is the best to choose... THANKS DON I finally found out how to post a picture...HURRAH !!!car is in it's starting stage, so don't pay too much attention to details. Edited October 14, 2015 by Native 0ne (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Of course, whatever you do won't technically be legal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I would go to a small town DMV with all my numbers, they are usually friendlier, with all the numbers and any receipts and ownership papers. Then ask the nice lady at the counter which one is most common for my year and make. She can pull up all the 1953 Packards in the state and there will be a wide range of protocol. If you don't look like a slipper criminal you will pick a good one and walk out with a smile. I know this for a fact. Just act kind of dumb and helpless. If you start telling her what the rules are, you lose. If you look like a slippery criminal or have to impress her with all your online research, stay home. Send an old guy who wears some thing military, hunches over to make himself shorter and meek looking, and speaks in a low strained voice. Or, if you live near Jerry Orbach, get him to go: I always have fun at the DMV and the dirls know me there.Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 We have this discussion time and time again and the conclusion is always the same. Each state has its own rules regarding titles and any general info you find here is likely useless. In Pennsylvania it is impossible to legally obtain a title for a car missing a title unless you hire an attorney and petition the court for a "court ordered title:. Takes months and $500+. You can have all the Bills of Sale and previous owners' statements you can find but they will do you no good in PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native 0ne Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Restore 32 and 60flat top, Bingo, finally we hit the nail on the head...what is legal anymore. Is any thing legal, they rip us off at every turn, I'm just trying to enjoy the car, pay the title fees and tax and tags and move it down the road...didn't steal it from a barn, just got it as a parts car for a 55 Packard, using the 327 in my 38 Buick Funeral Hearse, so to avoid the soup can factory I'm building a Rat...Thanks for all the input, you have all been helpful....sometimes confusing...hehe...but THANKS. I have a guy like you described, military, hunched over, speaks with a raspy voice and wears a Korean War USSN Walton Destroyer Escort hat, he's my father... and he knows nothing about cars, but god love him anyways...but it's worth a try...right. Here's my 55 Edited October 14, 2015 by Native 0ne (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I don't mean to be argumentative, but the Anti-theft number is the LAST number that should be used to title any Packard. Packards are problematic, as there are numbers all over the place, there is the Engine number, the Anti-Theft number, the Briggs Body number (1941-7 Clippers and everything made after WWII) and lastly, the Vehicle number tag on the driver's side door pillar (yes, they all left the factory with this tag), and that SHOULD be the number used. It may not have been, as others have previously mentioned, different states had different requirements, some required the engine number to be used. The number for that car should be 2606-XXXXX The "26" indicates that it is a 26th series car (more or less = 1953) the "06" denotes that it is a Patrician, and the numerals after the dash indicate the sequential number of that that particular car. Having worked in three large collections, the numbers get all monkeyed up in the many sales a car has been through, in many states, and Packards somehow are the worst. I would use the Vehicle tag number first, or the engine number, NEVER the Anti-Theft number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard Don Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Of course, if the car has a door tag, that's what I would use in a verification but the form also asks what holds on the plate. When "screws" is selected (as they are on my 1965 Cadillac), the DMV balks at using it! On the engine number, more often than not it has been changed and doesn't match the supporting documents so each case has to be judged individually with no "use this over the other" being possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 The body tags on a post-war Packard are spot welded on, occasionally an over-zealous body man will pry them off and lose them (which is inexcusible, that conversation needs to be had before the car is delivered to said bodyman) and in most cases they are there. Yes, engines can come and go. Gee, I wonder what they think of Mopar products? their VIN plates were all just screwed in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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