53 olds rocket

[Guest Plumber]

Would any you guys consider going with electronic ignition on the rocket 88? My other question the motor runs great if you block the blow by. Un block it it has no peer at all?

[Larry Schramm]

It worked 70 years on points, why go to electronic ignition? 

 

What is the compression on the cylinders?  If you have that much blow by then the question is are the rings bad and the engine needs an overhaul?

 

If you are talking of blow by does this car have a road draft tube?

 

Trying to understand what you have going on.

[Guest Plumber]

I was just curious if anyone ran electronic on the 88 rocket?

My blow by issue is another story. I'm going to try tomorrow to check compressions. Just seems odd to block it and it runs fine. Yes its a 53 has the hard pipe off the manifold runs down between motor and bell housing.

[Guest Bob Call]

Forget my response in your post under general discussion above.

 

You are referring to the "road draft tube" which vents the crankcase. If blocking the tube gives a power increase then you probably have excessive ring blowby. Do a compression check. The pressure should be 90 to 105 PSI. Pressure significantly below 90 means either worn rings or leaking valves. If the engine seems to run OK but no power it's probably rings.

 

Egge Machine (Egge.com) has everything to rebuild your engine. You just to have to find a competent machine shop to do the machine work.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Bob Call (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  Plumber, many of the guys see no reason to change to electronic ignition. I respect their thoughts, but do not agree with with their reason. If it was not better, I hardly think the auto makers would have spent the money and time to perfect it.  

 

  By all means, check into it. I believe  all V8 Olds HEI distributors will fit right in. One of the main benefits is the plug gaps can be opened to .040 or so.  I have a modified Olds HEI in my '50 Buick. Works like a charm.

 

  Ben

[Guest]

Plumber, many of the guys see no reason to change to electronic ignition. I respect their thoughts, but do not agree with with their reason. If it was not better, I hardly think the auto makers would have spent the money and time to perfect it.  

 

  By all means, check into it. I believe  all V8 Olds HEI distributors will fit right in. One of the main benefits is the plug gaps can be opened to .040 or so.  I have a modified Olds HEI in my '50 Buick. Works like a charm.

 

  Ben

First, it takes 8-10KV to jump a spark gap in a engine while running. A stock point type distributor coil is capable of 30K discharge should you decide to remove a plug wire, hold it in your hand and with the other hand touch the block of the engine while it's running. You will see the voltage is enough to kick you in the butt. When Catalytic converters first came in GM cars in 1975 there was a threat to the converter that if some component in the ignition system particularly in the secondary side of that system ( coil, cap, rotor, spark plug wire and spark plug ) that they needed a system that would overcome some of the shortcomings of the system, like a worn cap and rotor whose gap would no longer jump a spark at 30K. The reason for all this was that a catalytic converter would overheat and cause a fire under the car due to the unburned fuel in a cylinder being pushed into the exhaust and into the converter. So HEI was designed to accomplish that aim and can produce a spark as high as 60KV. I have seen engines with the electrode melted away and the ground strap missing on a spark plug and yet that plug was firing off that cylinder and the engine was running as smooth as if everything was normal, of course looking at that engine run and watching the engine with a oscilloscope you could see something was wrong. So for a car that is pre catalytic converter equipped you do not need a HEI ignition. Remember it takes 8-10KV to fire off a plug in a engine and a point type ignition system is capable of 30KV.

[vermontboy]

The only problem with HEI is that it either works or doesn't work.. There us no limping home, no roadside repairs. When it breaks and you don't have a spare you are stranded. Looking over the original owner's receipts for my 1991 Blazer I see 3 trips to the dealer over the course of a month before they finally replaced the whole distributor. Attempts at just replacing the internals were unsuccessful.

 

Just my two cents

[Guest Bob Call]

Breaker point ignition systems worked perfectly fine in millions of cars and trucks for 80 years prior to the electronic ignition system. The only reason to make the change is to extend the time between so-called tune-ups. So long as your distributor is in good condition, good shaft bushings, good points cam, cap, rotor, new points and condenser, new secondary wires, you're good to go for about 20,000 miles between tune-ups. So, save a $100 plus and stay with the points system.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  Grand Mother said the same thing when refrigerators started replacing the icebox!!

 

  And Grandpa resisted the Automatic transmission. 

 

  Ben

Edited September 28, 2015 by First Born (see edit history)

[Guest]

Breaker point ignition systems worked perfectly fine in millions of cars and trucks for 80 years prior to the electronic ignition system. The only reason to make the change is to extend the time between so-called tune-ups. So long as your distributor is in good condition, good shaft bushings, good points cam, cap, rotor, new points and condenser, new secondary wires, you're good to go for about 20,000 miles between tune-ups. So, save a $100 plus and stay with the points system.

 That's not quite true. A vehicle with HEI still has maintenance at the same intervals as a point distributor. In both systems case the distributor must be removed to check bushings. The module needs to be removed about once a year so that the old hardened dialectic grease on the module and the mounting plate can be cleaned and new grease applied. Failure to do this and the module will overheat and create a open circuit internally. The grease transfers heat from the module to the distributor, Old grease does not.. The cap and rotor must be inspected/or replaced, The centrifugal advance weights must be cleaned and new grease applied to the weights and the vacuum advance and it's plate must be inspected. Once this is all done the car needs to be started and the mechanical and vacuum advance checked, Timing set, idle speed and mixture set.

 The only difference in procedure between points/condenser and HEI is removing and cleaning a module and greasing it and removing points/condenser lubing the cam.

The procedure time is almost the same for both.  

Edited September 29, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

 That's not quite true. A vehicle with HEI still has maintenance at the same intervals as a point distributor. In both systems case the distributor must be removed to check bushings. The module needs to be removed about once a year so that the old hardened dialectic grease on the module and the mounting plate can be cleaned and new grease applied. Failure to do this and the module will overheat and create a open circuit internally. The grease transfers heat from the module to the distributor, Old grease does not.. The cap and rotor must be inspected/or replaced, The centrifugal advance weights must be cleaned and new grease applied to the weights and the vacuum advance and it's plate must be inspected. Once this is all done the car needs to be started and the mechanical and vacuum advance checked, Timing set, idle speed and mixture set.

 The only difference in procedure between points/condenser and HEI is removing and cleaning a module and greasing it and removing points/condenser lubing the cam.

The procedure time is almost the same for both.  

 

Really,

 

I will need to double check my owners manual because I do not remember ever seeing that "maintenance" requirement.

[Larry Schramm]

First, it takes 8-10KV to jump a spark gap in a engine while running. A stock point type distributor coil is capable of 30K discharge should you decide to remove a plug wire, hold it in your hand and with the other hand touch the block of the engine while it's running. You will see the voltage is enough to kick you in the butt. When Catalytic converters first came in GM cars in 1975 there was a threat to the converter that if some component in the ignition system particularly in the secondary side of that system ( coil, cap, rotor, spark plug wire and spark plug ) that they needed a system that would overcome some of the shortcomings of the system, like a worn cap and rotor whose gap would no longer jump a spark at 30K. The reason for all this was that a catalytic converter would overheat and cause a fire under the car due to the unburned fuel in a cylinder being pushed into the exhaust and into the converter. So HEI was designed to accomplish that aim and can produce a spark as high as 60KV. I have seen engines with the electrode melted away and the ground strap missing on a spark plug and yet that plug was firing off that cylinder and the engine was running as smooth as if everything was normal, of course looking at that engine run and watching the engine with a oscilloscope you could see something was wrong. So for a car that is pre catalytic converter equipped you do not need a HEI ignition. Remember it takes 8-10KV to fire off a plug in a engine and a point type ignition system is capable of 30KV.

 

Generally true and the rest of the reason for the 100,000 between spark plug changes is the removal of lead in gasoline which was required for the catalytic converter to work properly. Lead would just coat the beads in the early converters but now are monolith style.

[JACK M]

I would be willing to bet that there are millions of HEIs out there that NEVER got that maintenance.

I do know that they will occasionally die and that could be from the heat or dielectric mentioned.

I had a 454 in my last Chevy pick up that never got that maintenance and it went almost three hundred thousand miles when I sold it still running. I never had a spark issue in all the years that I drove it.

Now it did go thru a few exhaust manifolds and I remember giving it a timing chain for its 150th anniversary. I also had to have the tranny gone thru around 200. Of coarse shocks, brakes, a few tie rod issues etc. but I had it for a long time and used it pretty hard.

[Guest]

I would be willing to bet that there are millions of HEIs out there that NEVER got that maintenance.

I do know that they will occasionally die and that could be from the heat or dielectric mentioned.

I had a 454 in my last Chevy pick up that never got that maintenance and it went almost three hundred thousand miles when I sold it still running. I never had a spark issue in all the years that I drove it.

Now it did go thru a few exhaust manifolds and I remember giving it a timing chain for its 150th anniversary. I also had to have the tranny gone thru around 200. Of coarse shocks, brakes, a few tie rod issues etc. but I had it for a long time and used it pretty hard.

 Imagine how much better it would have run if it was maintained. Can't imagine how after 300 K the mechanical advance weights worked without being cleaned and lubricated. Wonder what the inside of the cap and the rotor looked liked after 300K. That's got to be a world record for a cap and rotor.

[JACK M]

I may have replaced those at some point, but never lubed anything. Its been 20 years since I sold it so I don't remember.

It was a 77 and I sold it in 95 when I bought a new Powerstroke that now has only 125,000 on the clock.

Since I got it new the Ford dealer has done all of the maintenance on it.

Retirement really cut the driving miles.

By the way, the Ford is a great F350, but I don't like the automatic transmission very much.

It rarely gets out of the garage, but I would work a trade up for a later Dodge 3500 with a manual tranny. A loaded one of coarse.

 

I am hearing that manual trannys are a thing of the past in pick ups.

[Guest Bob Call]

Jack

 

You are right about the demise of manual trannys in p-cups. The majority of them are now the first car or daily driver for a big percentage of families and the girls don't like rowing through city traffic.

[Guest Plumber]

Forget my response in your post under general discussion above.

You are referring to the "road draft tube" which vents the crankcase. If blocking the tube gives a power increase then you probably have excessive ring blowby. Do a compression check. The pressure should be 90 to 105 PSI. Pressure significantly below 90 means either worn rings or leaking valves. If the engine seems to run OK but no power it's probably rings.

Egge Machine (Egge.com) has everything to rebuild your engine. You just to have to find a competent machine shop to do the machine work.

[Guest Plumber]

Bob. If I block the blow by tube and it runs fine is it possible I have a intake gasket leaking and sucking in air?

[Guest]

 

Forget my response in your post under general discussion above.

You are referring to the "road draft tube" which vents the crankcase. If blocking the tube gives a power increase then you probably have excessive ring blowby. Do a compression check. The pressure should be 90 to 105 PSI. Pressure significantly below 90 means either worn rings or leaking valves. If the engine seems to run OK but no power it's probably rings.

Egge Machine (Egge.com) has everything to rebuild your engine. You just to have to find a competent machine shop to do the machine work.

 

Blocking off a open crankcase ventilation system allowing no crankcase vapors and pressure to vent will not only reduce power, but the pressure will blow/push out gaskets. I have heard of cars blowing off the oil pan because of this pressure. 

[Guest Plumber]

Thank you sir

[Larry Schramm]

If you want to keep the costs down, I would get it running with everything that you have to keep it stock and drive it for a year or two. 

 

Then if it does not drive well, then look to maybe change some of the parts. 

 

Just IMHO

[Larry W]

The only problem with HEI is that it either works or doesn't work.. There us no limping home, no roadside repairs. When it breaks and you don't have a spare you are stranded. Looking over the original owner's receipts for my 1991 Blazer I see 3 trips to the dealer over the course of a month before they finally replaced the whole distributor. Attempts at just replacing the internals were unsuccessful.

 

Just my two cents

Another two cent ante, when my son was younger, I would charter a fishing boat on Lake Michigan in late July so that he and two friends would celebrate his birthday. The boat was powered by twin SBC's with breaker point ignition. The captain explained that this was more readily repaired in case of a failure, than electronic ignition. If you don't like being stranded on the side of the road, you definitely won't want to be stranded on the Great Lakes.

[Guest]

Another two cent ante, when my son was younger, I would charter a fishing boat on Lake Michigan in late July so that he and two friends would celebrate his birthday. The boat was powered by twin SBC's with breaker point ignition. The captain explained that this was more readily repaired in case of a failure, than electronic ignition. If you don't like being stranded on the side of the road, you definitely won't want to be stranded on the Great Lakes.

I carry a briefcase tool box that goes with me in every car I drive. I keep points and condenser for one of my Pontiac's and for my VW's, I also carry a GM HEI module and dielectric grease ( the size of the points and condenser) for my two Pontiac's and Oldsmobile. It's actually faster to change the module than a set of points because there is no point dwell and timing to be set.

  I used to go to junk yards just to get modules at a couple of bucks a piece. I have about a dozen, not one of them tested N/G so they are spares.

Edited October 2, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Most all of the piston engine airplanes and helicopters sold today still use magnetos, points and capacitor (condenser) systems.  Follow the suggested maintenance schedule of 100 hour timing inspections and 500 hour inspection/overhaul and their reliability is quite high.  Of course it doesn’t hurt that these engines have two redundant systems (including two plugs per cylinder) so if one system fails, the engine still runs. Each system is tested independently before flight to ascertain functionality and state of degradation (you can tell if the points are getting bad or plugs are failing or getting fouled by the tetraethyl lead still used).

 

Why stay with points, especially when paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars for these new aircraft?  Predictive reliability.

 

And magnetos? Complete electrical failures of the airframe have no effect on engine performance. Short the battery and kill the alternator – keep flying.

 

Not saying the HEIs are bad but when you need true reliability, just look to what the aircraft manufacturers use.

Scott

[Guest Plumber]

Would any you guys consider going with electronic ignition on the rocket 88? My other question the motor runs great if you block the blow by. Un block it it has no peer at all?[/

Is there any chance I could just have a bad intake gasket? Sucking air and loosing vacuum.

[Guest Plumber]

Would any you guys consider going with electronic ignition on the rocket 88? My other question the motor runs great if you block the blow by. Un block it it has no peer at all?[/

Is there any chance I could just have a bad intake gasket? Sucking air and loosing vacuum.

anyone ever regretted asking a question? I've never owned a Oldsmobile was wondering about electronic ignition and get quotes about airplanes and helicopters.

[Stude Light]

I guess I could have kept it short....

Why change? Points are more reliable.

But I figured I would tell you why I felt that way.

[Larry Schramm]

How may ways can we say we like points?

[JACK M]

Don't let the ramblings of a bunch of knowledgeable old guys get you down.

Some just need to be more vocal than others. It all in good intent.

 

As for blocking your draft tube, Its a mystery to me.

Why don't you plug it off and drive it around a bit and see if you develop any strange oil leaks, fuel consumption etc. You can always unplug it.

 

Look for an intake leak with a can of WD40.

[Larry Schramm]

If you plug off the road draft tube I will bet you will end up al lot of oil leaks.

 

That said if you change it from a road draft tube to a PVC/ positive ventilated crankcase system the leaks may just go away because you will have a slight vacuum in the crankcase.  Just a thought.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Guest Plumber]

If you plug off the road draft tube I will bet you will end up al lot of oil leaks.

That said if you change it from a road draft tube to a PVC/ positive ventilated crankcase system the leaks may just go away because you will have a slight vacuum in the crankcase. Just a thought.

[Guest Plumber]

This is what makes me wonder if the intake gasket is bad and is sucking in air causing a vacuum loss. The motor is out of the car so I can't run it. I'm just going buy the previous owner that said it just had no power unless you block that tube. It has no oil leaks motor is very clean

[Larry Schramm]

Spray some WD-40 around the intake manifold and see if you have an increase in idle speed.  If you do then you have a bad/ loose intake and / or gasket.  If not then go back to base engine. 

 

Bad/ worn valves, rings, etc.....

Edited October 5, 2015 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JACK M]

DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT THE PREVIOUS OWNER SAID !!!!!!!

Treat it as a core motor with an unknown history. Its out of the car and ready for a rebuild.

All of these suggestions for an engine that you have not even run?

[Guest Bob Call]

Never had a car blow off an oil pan, that would take one hell of an explosion. I have had a flat head Ford V8 that had excessive blow by and gas vapor would accumulate in the crankcase and when the engine was at operating temp occasionally the vapor would explode and shoot out the oil dipstick. I think that if there is enough crankcase pressure to cause the oil seals to leak there has to be worn rings and bore letting combustion pressure to blow by into the crankcase.

 

If the engine is complete, set it upright and block under and around with scraps of 2 x 4. Get a good 6V battery and a set of jumper cables or a heavy duty battery charger, some type of container to feed gasoline to the carb (a boat fuel tank is good for this), and a can of WD-40. Pump or gravity feed the gasoline into the carb and fill the float bowl. Hook the negative of the battery or battery charger to the engine block and the positive to the big terminal on the starter. Then crank her by using a screw driver or jumper wire to jump the small terminals on the starter solenoid. Watch hands and clothing around the fan, belts, etc. While idling spray WD-40 along the mating surfaces of the intake manifold and the heads. If the idle speed increases there is a gasket leak. No change, no leak. Remember you have no cooling so don't run it too long. I have done this several times to hear an engine run before buying. If a compression check shows low pressure in more than one cylinder I would say it is ready for an overhaul. Back in the day engines usually were ready for an overhaul after 60,000 miles, with hard usage lots were ready at 40,000 miles.

[Guest Plumber]

This is why I'm asking. All the motors I've seen on the 53 are green. This motor is blue and it's very obvious it was painted out of the car making me think it's already had work done. I have gasket set ordered and we are going to to start it. Just waiting on the carb gasket and it comes Thursday

[Larry W]

Perhaps you might consider joining the Antique Oldsmobile Club of America. (antiqueolds.org). There you may find someone with more expertise than yourself, nearby that could help you out. Without actually seeing what you actually have, we're doing little more than offering educated guesses. Just my opinion, Good Luck!

[Guest Plumber]

I understand. This was such a good deal I couldn't pass it up. I've rebuilt. Several cars but this one has me stumped. I wish I could post pictures ot the car. Is there a way to do that?

[Guest Bob Call]

Plumber

 

To upload photos try clicking on the "More Reply Options" at the bottom right of the reply box. That will open another dialog box and at the bottom left is a browse button to locate and upload the photos from your computer. Most photos need to be fairly small in pixel count. If you try to upload one that is too large you will get an error message. Open the photo in Windows Live Photo Gallery, or other photo program, and resize it under the "Edit" tab.

 

You say the engine has been painted blue. Did they paint over the gaskets or are the gasket edges clean. If the gaskets are painted I would say the paint job was just cosmetic. If the gasket edges are clean then the engine was probably apart when painted and some work might have been done. Anyway, run a compression check and maybe try to start it on the ground before you start tearing it apart. Get a small can of gel paint stripper at the hardware store or try acetone and take off a small spot of the blue and see if the original green is still there. Also, you never said and I didn't ask, but, do the rocker arm covers have the embossed "Oldsmobile Rocket"?

[Larry Schramm]

DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT THE PREVIOUS OWNER SAID !!!!!!!

Treat it as a core motor with an unknown history. Its out of the car and ready for a rebuild.

All of these suggestions for an engine that you have not even run?

 

Great advice unless the previous owner is a personal friend and you watched him/her rebuild the engine.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)