Quietlion79 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Hello all, I was wondering if anyone knew where the hidden VIN stamping(s) were on a 64 riviera. I have read that there is one on the upper side of the frame on the driver's side around the middle of the car as well as one that is stamped on the fire wall near where the heater box is? I am going to get my car verified by the CHP soon and I have no reason to believe that the car is anything but clean, as I am the third owner, have a clean title from the second owner who didn't drive it at all and have the original manual with the protect-o plates, other documentation dating back until 1970 as well as the plate on the center console that states it was specifically made for the lady named in all the above documentation (including old registration card). I bought the vehicle from a retire LEO as well. I plan to have a statement of fact written out by the LEO and I don't really forsee any trouble, but I love this car and want to make sure all my "ducks are in a row". I can supply photos if that would help at all. Car is straight and almost rust free white on black with one respray (white is original color), interior is original and in nice shape. Edited October 8, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 FWIW-I don't recall the cowl location, but was asked to check the frame spot you mention for a VIN on a '65 I was parting some years ago. The car had a rusty body, but the frame was very good and we couldn't find anything at all-anywhere-good luck! Dan Mpls. Mn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Curran Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Not sure about the VIN on the frame but the original VIN tag for your car is located in the door jamb on the drivers side. The above is in reference to a 65. Sorry for the misinformation!! Edited September 23, 2015 by Pat Curran (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alini Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 The are stampings on the frame but they are on the TOP of the frame between the body and the frame itself. One is on the back end just behind the axle under the trunk area and the other is under the drivers footwell. Dont know how easy they are going to be to read with the body on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Hey all, thanks for the responses! Alini - I appreciate the info. The LEO PO worked in the stolen car division during his time on the force and he said they have mirrors and such to be able to read those VINs on the frame, I just want to be armed with some suggestions in case they have trouble locating them. VIN tag was definitely on the cowl, not the door jamb. The VINs were located there until 65 when they were moved to the doorjamb. Edited October 8, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Not sure about the VIN on the frame but the original VIN tag for your car is located in the door jamb on the drivers side.In '65 the VIN was moved from the cowl to the jamb. My car is on a lift right now and I've been scraping off old undercoating and 50 years worth of dirt, dust, grease, and grime. If you're hoping to find a VIN on the frame, you're going to have to know pretty close to where it is, then do some heavy duty cleaning to find it. Hopefully someone can narrow it down for you; if not, you'll have a nice clean frame by the time you finally find it. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) Thanks Ed, Hopefully the CHP will be patient. I am worried about losing my car! I feel that I have all the evidence necessary to show that the VIN is the same as the replacement VIN plate I had made, but the stamp on the frame would be definite proof. PS- Good luck with your restoration! I plan to do a frame off resto on mine in about 8-10 years, I LOVE driving it around! I've found that for about every 5 "thumbs ups" I get, there is one offer to buy it (7 offers so far and I've only had it since my birthday (7/30) Edited September 23, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alini Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) I went they my pics to refresh my memory. Between the body and frame just forward of where the parking brake cable goes thru the frame and between body and frame about six inches rear of the second to last body mount. GoodLuck searching thiugh. As Ed stated he has scraped a lot off the accessible point of the frame. This is punches between the body and frame. So hard to clean off Edited September 23, 2015 by alini (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 Yup, sounds like it i will be a task, but those details sure do help. Thank you SO much, Alini. Maybe it would behoove me to do some pre-cleaning before I bring it to the CHP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbuff2 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 My cousin was with the California Hiway Patrol and was assigned to the Department of Motor Vehicles of which he worked in 5 different locations (one location per day for appointments) they have a book that list where the VIN numbers are located other than the public VIN. He looked for the VIN on one of my cars and due to age, rust, corrosion had a difficult time in locating it .....He stated: " The GM employee depending on mood, day of the week or other variables, would stamp where-ever he wanted to as long as it was in the general area sometimes as far as 30" from where they were supposed to be. Good luck in locating it. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Is the engine the original engine for the car? If you are sure of that, the Engine Serial Number is stamped (not cast) into the machined surface of the block. It's on the surface where the valley cover sits, at the front, on the driver's side. If that number matches the VIN number on the title, you should be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Carbuff2 - *gulp* Well, I hope my car didn't get stamped on a Friday afternoon or something! Ed - Negative, I already checked and was quite crestfallen to discover the engine is not the original 425. I figured it was because the car had so few owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobravii Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I'm not sure if the Riviera was the same as an Electra or not but my Electra has the VIN stamped into the trunk opening drip rail on the drivers side about half way bewteen the front of the opening and the rear. You will have to pull back the weather strip to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Carbuff2 - *gulp* Well, I hope my car didn't get stamped on a Friday afternoon or something! Ed - Negative, I already checked and was quite crestfallen to discover the engine is not the original 425. I figured it was because the car had so few owners.Like, "bummer man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I had to go through this with a Lincoln Continental convertible a few years ago. The car was titled by the door tag (which specifically says "Not for title or registration purposes") but the door itself was taken from a totally different car, so when we went to title it, it was listed as a blue Continental coupe, not a green Continental 4-door convertible. Um, OK. So I went through this same procedure with the highway patrol here in Ohio. I took the car to their facility and dropped it off, and asked if they wanted me to show them where the VIN was stamped on the car (passenger's side inner fender). They rather brusquely told me, "No, we know where all the secret VINs are." Secret VINs? OK, knock yourself out. Two hours later they came out and asked me to show them where the VIN was. Find it yourself so you can at least be ready when they fail to find it. Remember that with civil servants, including the CHP, it's ALWAYS easier for them to say, "No, too bad, you lose," to you than to really work hard at their jobs. They don't care about you or your money or your car or your story. If your VIN is too hard to find, they'll give up and tell you that you're SOL. Do your best to find it yourself before you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbuff2 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 That would be my recommendation, locate it yourself prior to your appointment, cause they will go through the motions for about 15 minutes before they say that the numbers are not there (where they are supposed to be) and give up the search. Leaving you on your own. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Thanks All, That is what I was thinking as well, do their job for them so they don't have to. Guess who is scraping and scrubbing this weekend? THIS guy *thumbs toward self* I'll let you know what I find and how this works out. I'll probably go next week to get this over with so I can put my restored black and yellow (correct YOM, thank you very much) on and confidently cruise her around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Quietlion79, Let us know how it goes. If you are able to see either one of the frame VINs you will be the first person I know who was successful at seeing it without having the body raised or removed. My 66 had a rust free frame and even after body removal the VINs were not easy to find because it wasn't stamped very deep. Had there been a normal amount of rust they would have been illegible even with body off. When they stamped these secret VINs I don't think much thought was put into actually having someone be able to find and read them even 10 years down the road. Of course back then many cars didn't even make it 10 years! Edited September 25, 2015 by JZRIV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) Hi Jason, Boy that doesn't fill me with much confidence in my chances. I hope I can find SOMETHING because it sounds like the CHP will not put much effort into it...and then what? They take my car??? Edited October 8, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 You might have to take the stance with the CHP (if it's possible) for them to prove that it's NOT the car for which you have a title. If they can't disprove it, then in essence they've proven that it is in fact the car for which you have a title and they should give it their blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Without seeing it, I'd be hard pressed to say. It probably depends on how original it looks, and how what comparisons the CHP has to look at. If it looks extremely authentic, I'd leave it. Do you have any acquaintances in any law enforcement circles? If so, get his/her opinion. Can you post pictures of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 You might have to take the stance with the CHP (if it's possible) for them to prove that it's NOT the car for which you have a title. If they can't disprove it, then in essence they've proven that it is in fact the car for which you have a title and they should give it their blessing. This just might be the funniest thing I've read all day... Asking the CHP to prove a negative, that's hysterical. You'll be lucky not to be wearing bracelets when you get done asking that question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Had a similar experience with a different make. Based on that, this is what I would do if in this situation. I would not go to CHP or DMV for verification. Not sure why you are going to CHP. Did you already try to have it verified and were directed there? Next, DO NOT tell them or anyone you attached a replacement VIN tag. Only the CHP can do that. If the CHP thinks anything is fishy they may/will impound your car because in their opinion it may not be yours (stolen). If you just need to get it verified to transfer title, go to an independent CA Auto registration service. They just want their $$ and usually don't scrutinize things too closely. Ones in not so good neighborhoods are usually good for this and better than the Auto Club. Also, If I remember, on the 64, the vin tag is riveted to the cowl. You mentioned you JB Welded or glued the replacement tag on. Are there holes in the replacement tag for rivets? If so, that is a red flag if rivets aren't securing it, If no holes, it may not matter because if you look at the CA DMV VIN Verification form, "adhesive" is one of the options listed to attach VIN tags. The DMV form is here:https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/052f05b3-ea4f-4cde-b017-3d970b8ea1a4/reg31.pdf?MOD=AJPERES But if you HAVE to go to DMV or CHP, +3 on finding the hidden VIN number BEFORE you go. The motor swap could complicate things because when they cannot find a hidden frame # quickly, they will then go to the engine #s to verify. Their books/info will say the engine number should match the VIN. Now since the engine is the only number on the car, they have nothing to support your claim it is the car listed on your title. A missing or funny looking VIN plate on the cowl will also cause the verification process to go this direction. CHP will "run" both the VIN on your title and the engine #/VIN through NICB (National Insurance Crime Bureau). BTW, you can run numbers yourself through NICB on their website. If all numbers come up clean and not listed as stolen, and no hidden numbers can be found on your car, then a really bad thing can happen. At this point, your car is nothing to the CHP in regard to identity. If no hidden VIN numbers can be found to match the title, your car won't be impounded or if it was you will get it back, but it will be assigned a replacement VIN tag aka "blue tag" and designated as a newly constructed vehicle. Your car will then be titled as a current model year which now is 2015. Congratulations. You now own the only 2015 Buick Riviera in existence. Higher registration and insurance costs too because its a 2015. But if you do get it verified as-is without locating the hidden VIN, I would want to some how confirm its identity for my own peace of mind. Our data plate experts here may be able to comment if you can confirm your vehicle's VIN though the data plate? Sorry, but its possible your car may not be the car listed on the title. I would even go as far as lifting the body or cutting a hole in the floor to see the top of the frame. When you sell this car in the future and it is not the car you think it is, the buyer can come back later and get his money back. So, to sum up. If I was in this situation, and needed to register the car asap and could not find the hidden VIN, I would go to an independent registration service and have them verify it. If I had to go to the DMV or CHP for verification then would ONLY go if you can show them the hidden VIN. Last, any CA Peace Officer can verify vehicles. All of this is only my opinion and what I would do. You should research all these processes and their legalities. Good Luck. Edited September 27, 2015 by Paul K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 (edited) Paul, your sage advice is most appreciated. The previous owner will be completing a "statement of facts" for (He's actually an EX-LEO from the stolen cars dvision...maybe he has a friend that is still on the force that can verify it??) and I was thinking about trying to track down the original owner to have them fill one out as well to explain the engine change. Maybe that is going overboard? I'd rather do too much than too little. I have some other assorted paperwork in my "gallery", including the protect-o plates and a shot of the plate on the console that names the person in the owner's manual and some of the other paperwork. I hope that will help matters. I am certainly leaning towards the independent inspector route, but as you can see they put a note on the registration that states "CHP only" (when they saw the new VIN plate), I guess I can just get a new registration form printed out when I go to the dmv or the dmv services place I plan to use. I ran both the title VIN and the engine VIN through NICB and both came up clean *whew* That "blue tag" scenario sounds like a real bummer. I'd probably have to get it smogged too! If I do end up going to CHP (I have till 10/15 on my temporary permit) I will DEFINITELY find the frame VINs before i go. I uploaded a bunch of pics to my gallery, both of the car and of the documentation. Edited October 8, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I was working on my car yesterday and looked at the VIN tag. It's been spot welded on. There are two spot welds, one each where your screws/rivets are. Otherwise, the tag looks good. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Thanks, Ed! I appreciate the confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Not my car but pictures that I use for authenticity from an unmolested 1964 Riviera. This will give you a good reference for how the VIN is attached and where it's placed. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Not my car but pictures that I use for authenticity from an unmolested 1964 Riviera. This will give you a good reference for how the VIN is attached and where it's placed. Ed Ed, Those look like large-hole rivets like the data plate not spot welds. I don't have my '64 here to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Here's a photo of the VIN tag welded in place on a '63. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Matt, I did the old "hold down the control key and turn the wheel on your mouse" trick to enlarge the picture. When I get it big enough, I have to agree with you that the plate in the picture that I posted does look like it's riveted. As I said, that's not my car, I was using it for paint references. BUT, the picture of the '63 VIN plate that you posted looks exactly like the VIN on my '64. Thanks for posting the picture for everyone to see what it was like when it came from the factory. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 I did some checking around and found some great vehicle idenitifcation companies in the SoCal area, but it seems that in my situation I must go only to CHP. I will be setting up an appointment soon. I was thinking of goign to the one in NewHall instad of the West San Fernando Valley as I am hoping they have a lighter workload and can take the time required to locate the frame VINs (That I can hopefully locate before I go in). I'll let you all kno how it turns out. If I cancel my account here at the Riviera owners forum, I guess you'll know that I am not an owner any longer. :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) I'm a bit confused after looking at the gallery pictures. 1. Why is this even happening? You have a CA title from the seller which means no verification of VINs or inspection of the vehicle is required. All you do is pay the fees and leave. Wait. You didn't tell the DMV you applied the replacement vin tag when you tried to transfer the title? Did you? 2. Possible hope (if a registration service hasn't already turned you away): On your deposit of fees printout, there are printed instructions with options to have the vehicle verified. Below them the DMV clerk handwrote "CHP Only". It is possible this direction may not be "in the system" like the printed directions are. Again, you do what you are comfortable with legally, but I would go to a registration service and have them try to verify it. Its possible the CHP direction won't show up. Edited September 30, 2015 by Paul K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 Paul, I'm just as confused as you are. I have registered and titled old cars in CA in the past and all I've needed was the title and whether it is "in the system" or not, I would walk out with current registration, tags and a title on the way in the mail. I'm wishing at this point that I just sucked it up and waited in line at the DMV, because apparently most AAA reps have no idea what to do with old cars. I didn't mention the missing VIN tag on my first visit to AAA, as I wasn't even aware that it was missing at the time. They said straight away that the car had to be verified, so I came back a second time and that's when I realized there was no VIN tag. Additionally, what raised the AAA rep's radar was that the number on the engine was different than on the title. THis prompted the third visit (with new tag) and the (now third different rep) staed that the tag didn't look like it had been on the car since 1964. This "necessitated" the stamp and instructions to go see CHP. I have made an appointment in t-minus 12 days. I hope the officer is patient, knowledgeable and kind. Till then, I will be looking for the frame stamped VINS. I have been tempted to go to a registration service, and it is true that the stamp may not be indicative that it is "officially" in the system, but I think I may be too far down the paperwork rabbit hole at this point. I may try calling the DMV and see if I can glean some further info on this over the phone. If I can find the frame VINs myself, I will fell a whole HELL of a lot more confident about going to CHP. RIght now I am a little worried (have even lost sleep over this). I thought this would have been easy, just like the 60 tbird, 67 galaixe fastback and others that have gone before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I would still go to an independent registration service to confirm the recommended CHP direction for verification. Your car is in the system because you have a DMV printout, but the handwritten note by the clerk at AAA may not be. I believe this because I have seen the CHP direction message PRINTED on the printout by the computer with the other verification options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Laws between countries are differerent, but even over here (in Australia), its your responcibility to prove the car is the car in question I have 3 old cars, a 58 Buick, a 60 Dodge and a 60 Plymouth The Plymouth was the first one I bought and was imported here by someone about 25 years ago and in the number of owners it has had before I got the car, both tags are gone Fun for me with this one is that I have a pile of paperwork here (Import approvals ect) for the car, but the only number that I have to prove this car relates to that paperwork is one license plate off it from when it was in Washington The Plymouths dont have secret anything anywhere Here though, if the vin is lost or otherwise useless, provided you can supply enough evidence that you own the car and it is the car that you own, they will issue a new vin which they will un ceramoniously stamp on the chassis somewhere, with no regard to the nice new paint, but at least its legitamate then Good luck Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alini Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) I knew I had a pic that had the number in it. This MAY help with your search of your car, as mentioned its been known to be a bit forward of aft, but atleast you have a sense of what it looks like. Thats the parking brake lever in the pic as reference Edited October 3, 2015 by alini (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadShark Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 I had a '68 Biscayne (nothing fancy - 4-door, six-cylinder, 3-on-the-tree) that was bone-stock original. There was only one visible VIN from the factory. The local motor vehicles told me I had to have a 2nd. I told them it was the original engine and I could show them the matching numbers. They said: "We're not authorized to look at engines, you'll have to go to state DMV". Ugh. So i went to state level and the guy said: "Oh, you just look at the engine". The numbers matched and I got my reg. I do not know what would have happened if it wasn't the original engine. This happened in CT and I do not miss living there. Sorry if this isn't an uplifting story, but I think it illustrates that there's a certain amount of randomness to this whole thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Paul- Maybe I will give that suggestion a shot next week...no harm in asking, right? Thanks for the info about it sometimes being printed on the reg card as well. Good to know. I hope to have some time to look at the frame this weekend. With Alini's great reference pic, at least I know roughly what I am looking for (Thanks so much for posting that, Alini). At least it is near the outside edge of the frame...maybe I'll have enough clearance to run a 90 degree-angled pick over the top of the frame and "feel" where the VIN is stamped. Mick - Wow, I guess my situation isn't so bad, thanks for the perspective. Best of luck with your situation. RoadShark- Yup, seems like there really is no rhyme or reason...no uniform set of rules and each state does its own thing. I suppose that is both good and bad. Edited October 8, 2015 by Quietlion79 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alini Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) I am posting these as reference only and as has been mention your numbers may be in a different area. I ran my fingers over it and I could not feel them. And on the one at the rear I can barely read the numbers I can clearly see a 5H and that's it but I know the numbers are thereThe front pic is on top of the frame between the smudge marks. The rear mark is in view in the mirror and that's 7.5 inches behind that bolt. Drivers side near gas tank side p.s. dont worry my cars on jacks, so I didnt really go out of my way to get this Edited October 4, 2015 by alini (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietlion79 Posted October 4, 2015 Author Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks Chris, I am going to get back on this task later in the afternoon. I have a memorial flyover to shoot in a bit. Much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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