F/S 1965 Riviera GS - $35k - Oregon

[TheRev]

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/5187529102.html

 

Not mine, I can go look at it if someone is interested.

[msdminc]

It looks like it has a 1965 interior and front end, but the rear end from the lock pillar back does not look like it is 65 - Maybe 63 or 64, not sure?

 

Rock On

 

gord

[TheRev]

It looks like it has a 1965 interior and front end, but the rear end from the lock pillar back does not look like it is 65 - Maybe 63 or 64, not sure?

 

Rock On

 

gord

A guy on V8buick said the same thing when I posted the lead there....he said 64

[petelempert]

Wow. Crazy money for a cobbled together car. Better take a good look at the title. How could the car be titled as a 65 when it looks like it just has a 65 front clip? Interior has 65 dash and 63 seats? GS emblems in some funny places. Later wheels. Funny things happen to cars over a 50 year lifespan. I'm sure it's a nice car, but top shelf genuine GS Rivs are trading in this price range. I'd call this car a "flashing yellow light". Cover the brake before proceeding. PRL
 

[Rufcar]

Def a 65 front attached to a 64 rear. Or vise versa.

[RivNut]

The seats are from a '64 (or a '65 standard.  In '63, there's not the horizontal piece that runs across the top.  '63 panels run all the way up. 

)

Anyone else notice the big dent in the left rear corner of the quarter panel next to the trunk lid?

 

FrankenBuick to say the least.

 

I'm guessing '64 with a '65 front clip.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: Could this be Frank and his boy, Stein?

[cjp69]

His reply to me when I asked what year it was and noted that it looked like a 64 body not 65:

" it is a very early 65 - Very rare Very fast Very cool! and yes it is a true Gran Sport.
Thanks for looking,
Bruce"

And when I sent a link to the Riv site article about the 65 Gran Sport and 64 KX car, and asking what the first part of the VIN was so I could confirm the year of the car:

Thanks Chris for your information, You should come look at the car for all the answers to your questions.
Best, Bruce    

[petelempert]

Its an "early 65" all right, about a year too early. It's "rare", the rarely seen multi year Riv. And "fast", as in fast talking sales guy. PRL

[TheRev]

His reply to me when I asked what year it was and noted that it looked like a 64 body not 65:

" it is a very early 65 - Very rare Very fast Very cool! and yes it is a true Gran Sport.

Thanks for looking,

Bruce"

And when I sent a link to the Riv site article about the 65 Gran Sport and 64 KX car, and asking what the first part of the VIN was so I could confirm the year of the car:

Thanks Chris for your information, You should come look at the car for all the answers to your questions.

Best, Bruce    

Reminds me of on-line dating.......

[cjp69]

Latest update, Warren, we may have to have you go and check it out!

 

I sent him more info on 65 vs 64 -

Thanks Chris. The vin on my car is the same first eight digits and letters as the one you sampled.
I know it's an odd car, but it is a '65 and it is a GS. I have had the car inspected by pros. They loved it. "Very Rare"

[TheRev]

Latest update, Warren, we may have to have you go and check it out!

 

I sent him more info on 65 vs 64 -

Thanks Chris. The vin on my car is the same first eight digits and letters as the one you sampled.

I know it's an odd car, but it is a '65 and it is a GS. I have had the car inspected by pros. They loved it. "Very Rare"

 

Chris, no problem.  I am around all week and weekend.  The car is approximately 20 minutes from me.  Give me a call and let me know what you want me to look for and photograph.  

 

I will roll over in my very rare and odd numbers matching "62 Wildcat dual quad GS" .....ha

[Bleach]

He didn't say what kind of pros inspected it.

Professional rodeo clowns maybe?

[Mr Riviera]

64 with a 65 front clip !

[RivNut]

Look at the data tag as well.  If it's gone then you know there's monkey business afloat.  It will tell you the year, the model, etc.  The FB numbers for 1965 are different from 63 and 64.  FB numbers for Rivieras built in '65 are all part of the larger run of all models built in '65, in '63 and '64 they're model specific.  63 can't be over40,000, and 64 can't be over 37,658. 

 

www.teambuick.com for examples of Fisher body tags.

 

• Reference
• Click on the specific year
• Click on body number

[Bleach]

Plain and simple, if the vin number starts with anything other than a 4, then it's not a 65.

If it starts with a 7 then it's a 63 or 64.

This car looks as genuine as a $3 bill and that's just looking at the photos.

[cjp69]

 

Look at the data tag as well.  If it's gone then you know there's monkey business afloat.  It will tell you the year, the model, etc.  The FB numbers for 1965 are different from 63 and 64.  FB numbers for Rivieras built in '65 are all part of the larger run of all models built in '65, in '63 and '64 they're model specific.  63 can't be over40,000, and 64 can't be over 37,658. 

 

www.teambuick.com for examples of Fisher body tags.

 

• Reference
• Click on the specific year
• Click on body number

 

 

I have already asked the owner for pics of these things, will post them when/if I receive them. 

[JanZverina]

I can send out some 'pros' to look at this car. Beau and Gus. Keep us posted!

[padgett]

Haven't seen the real question asked, is it a Dynaflow or a THM400. The one shot of the console seems to be a THM. If so my money would be a 65 that was rearended and "fixed" with a 64. Harder than a front clip but doable.

Regardless the price is "interesting".

ps a GS should have dual quads & the one shot sorta looks that way

[RivNut]

I did the "hold down the control key and turn the wheel on the mouse trick" to enlarge the picture of the interior.  The shifter has the L2DNRP quadrant in the shifter and the '65 standard interior door panels.  I don't know what to think now.  Origianlly I posted '64 with '65 front clip, I'm still sticking with that but I'll have to add that the interior was also taken from a '65.  Standard '65 seats and door panels, shifter for a ST400 wiith the switch pitch, '65 dash.  But the body itself with the tail lights and horse shoe molding is definately a '64.  If you could get close enough, you could 1) look at the Fisher Data plate - my bet is that it has "disappeared," and 2) look at the front and rear hubs.  How big are they?  In '65 they're smaller than they are in '63 and '64.  Where's the VIN?  On the cowl or the door jamb.  But, there's no way on God's green earth that this is "one of the 1st '65's built from leftover '64 parts."  I'm betting there was plenty of time to switch everything over to the new line before the first '65 rolled off the line.  They built 2,500 fewer '64's than they did '63's and there was no problem there, and the '63 and'64 models are much more alike. They built 3,000 fewer '65's than they did '64's. Could be a '64 with the Super Wildcat engine and someone thought that it would have a higher resaie demand as a '65 Gran Sport. It's hard to tell but it doesn't appear that the glove box lid has the Gran Sport emblem on it, and besides, who would want a car with a wood wheel that doesn't have the horn bar.  My last $.02.

Edited August 29, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Carbuff2]

ABSOLUTELY A WASTE OF A DUAL 4-BARREL SET UP  ... love the placement of the GranSport Emblem in the rear.  Whoever did this to a Riviera should not be allowed near a buick, he should own a bicycle. 

[RivNut]

he should own a bicycle. 

Hey,

 

I sort of resemble that remark,  I've been restoring early 50's Schwinn bikes for some time.  It's quite fun and rewarding and the investment is nil compared to a car.  Plus you get to do more often.  I can ride in them in parades and the most fun is our bicycle pub crawls.  My current ride is a 1936 Elgin Oriole military bike.

[Guest Korvun]

Honestly, I haven't finished reading through all of these responses yet, but to the guy that "only asked" what year it was, you forgot to mention how unbelievably rude you were, hence the vague response.

Yes, the Vin says it is a 65. Assume for the moment, for arguments sake, that everything I have said about the car is true, to the best of my knowledge and now that the car is no longer for sale that it is not some scam where were trying to rob you. This is honestly a family that doesn't know what we have so I took it upon myself to get some help.

We're out of town right now, but if ANY of you want to come to my house and see this car for yourself and meet me AND call my father an idiot to his face as a couple have done in emails, please do. We would never dream of being as rude to you.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Korvun (see edit history)

[Pat Curran]

At least they haven't said that it was an early styling study by Bill Mitchell that they found squirreled away at a GM plant somewhere.  On a positive note, the glove box door sits straight!!

[cjp69]

Honestly, I haven't finished reading through all of these responses yet, but to the guy that "only asked" what year it was, you forgot to mention how unbelievably rude you were, hence the vague response.

Yes, the Vin says it is a 65. Assume for the moment, for arguments sake, that everything I have said about the car is true, to the best of my knowledge and now that the car is no longer for sale that it is not some scam where were trying to rob you. This is honestly a family that doesn't know what we have so I took it upon myself to get some help.

We're out of town right now, but if ANY of you want to come to my house and see this car for yourself and meet me AND call my father an idiot to his face as a couple have done in emails, please do. We would never dream of being as rude to you.

I am sorry if I came across as rude when I asked what year it was, that certainly wasn't my intent.  I may have been a little rude in one of my later replies though, when the only answer I could get was "come look at the car".  I was trying to get to the bottom of what the car really is, but wasn't going to drive to another state to find out when pictures could suffice.  Here is the email chain:

 

Bruce,

Can you send me a picture of the data tag on the firewall cowl and the vin?  Also, is the engine the original engine?  Can you send me a picture of the VIN on it and the two letter engine code?

Maybe you do have something real, and if these things check out, I may need to make the drive down from WA.

Thanks, Chris

 

From: pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

To: b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

Subject: Re: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:47:45 +0000

Thanks Chris. The vin on my car is the same first eight digits and letters as the one you sampled.

I know it's an odd car, but it is a '65 and it is a GS. I have had the car inspected by pros. They loved it. "Very Rare"

Would love to show you the car in person. You may enjoy it!

Thanks again for your interest.

Best, Bruce

 

From: "Chris" <b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org>

To: pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 1:09:27 PM

Subject: RE: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

 

and a 64, with simulated side air vents and tail lights in the body (not the bumper like in 65) like yours.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Riviera-/281782368573?forcerrptr=true&hash=item419b89b93d&item=281782368573

 

 

From: Chris

To: pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

CC: b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

Subject: RE: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:06:24 -0700

 

Bruce,

 

Here is what a 65 Body and Interior look like, please note the major differences between it and yours:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Riviera-2dr-Coupe-/151791577722?forcerrptr=true&hash=item23577baa7a&item=151791577722

 

VIN is

494475H926351

 

the sixth digit is a "5", for 1965.

Subject: Re: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

From: Chris

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:57:10 -0700

To: pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

CC: b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

 

I am pretty sure I now know the answers that matter. 

 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2015, at 6:52 PM, "craigslist 5187529102" <pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org> wrote:

 

Thanks Chris for your information, You should come look at the car for all the answers to your questions.

Best, Bruce

 

From:

"Chris" <

b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

>

To:

pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

Sent:

Monday, August 24, 2015 3:45:39 PM

Subject:

RE: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

 

Do you mean it is a 1964 model with the dual quad option?   That would be a rare Riviera, but not a "Gran Sport".  What are the first 6 characters of the VIN?

 

 They didn't make a Gran Sport until the 65 model year, and your car, as pictured, appears to be a 64 based on the simulated side air scoops and tail lights in the body not the bumper.   The "early" 65 Gran Sports still had a 65 Riviera body, not the 64 body.

 

 

This article from the Riviera Owners Association may be helpful reading:

 

What is a Gran Sport/G.S./Stage 1?

http://rivowners.org/features/Ev_Stats/65gs/

 

An excerpt from the article:

The G.S. option was first offered on the Riviera in 1965 and continued through 1975. A dual 4-barrel engine option was available in 1964 with an engine code of "KX" however; these 64 Rivieras were not identified as Gran Sports and did not have any GS emblems. Buick installed this engine option in only 2,122 Rivieras in 1964. The G.S. option was not always an engine option it varied from year to year. In some years it included a modified engine, while in other years it was only a handling package.

 

 

From:

pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

To:

b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

Subject: SBJ Newsroom Re: 65 Riviera for sale

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:32:32 +0000

 

Very good.. But it is a very early 65 - Very rare Very fast Very cool! and yes it is a true Gran Sport.

Thanks for looking,

Bruce

 

 

 

From:

"Chris" <

b75b9b54c40d3655bd9c93e80895eed4@reply.craigslist.org

>

To:

pxr8w-5187529102@sale.craigslist.org

Sent:

Monday, August 24, 2015 12:36:17 PM

Subject:

65 Riviera for sale

 

Bruce,

 

Looks like your car is a 64 Riviera, not a 65?  And the Gran Sport wasn't made in 64?

 

Chris

[petelempert]

Nobody here is trying to be mean, insult anybody, call anyone a liar or trash the car. It's simple case of truthfully representing the car, intentionally or unintentionally.  This forum is populated by members who are probably the most knowledgeable Riviera owners on the planet. They know the details of the original cars and these details can dramatically determine value/price. This is a really nice car, but it does have some configurations that defy the conventional knowledge. There are a lot of misrepresented Rivieras out there so members are particularly sensitive to cars that "don't add up". The cars that "don't add up" often end up as a cautionary tale because they might be stolen, have a savage title or is marketed as a very rare model that didn't actually come from the factory that way. Not trying to imply any dirty business with this particular car, just trying to explain the posts. Hopefully this car will find the good home it deserves, whatever it's particular story is. PRL

[Matt Harwood]

Nobody here was being unkind, mostly because it's almost daily that someone shows up on this message board with an oddball car that doesn't add up and claims it's some kind of factory special or a fluke of production or a "secret" test vehicle of some kind. Old cars all have checkered pasts and even though it's fun to speculate that the factory did sloppy, careless work back in the day, the truth is, they didn't. There's just no way GM would have released a "bitsa" car like this to the general public. The 1964 cars would have been crash certified and even in the '60s there was government approval required to market a particular car. Can you imagine the liability of selling a car that's half 1964 and half 1965 to someone, only to have them die in a crash? There's simply no way GM would have released such a car to the public, not even if they were just trying to use up the parts they had lying around (another popular but often untrue myth).

 

This car is something other than what it appears to be. Whether it's the result of a skillful body man or someone intending to commit fraud (not the seller, but perhaps someone in the past), is impossible to say. It looks good and combines arguably the best styling traits of the early Rivieras, and I'm guessing that many of us would like to have a car that does just that. However, from a collectors' point of view and with the mindset that old cars are an "investment," this car is going to scare away any serious buyers who are knowledgeable about these cars simply because of those question marks. In short, nobody is going to pay top dollar for a car that's questionable. Someone will pay a bargain price to get a nice car and you can discount it sufficiently to make a buyer ignore the question marks, but top dollar plus question marks equals no sale.

 

And yes, you kind of did bring this on yourself, one by refusing to supply answers to the basic questions that people were asking, and two, coming on and pretending to be someone else who just bought the car and simply wanted to find out what it was, rather than representing yourself as the seller who was taking a shellacking down here. Either way, the car is kind of poisoned in the market now. I'd hold on to it for a while, enjoy it, let it cool off, then put it back on the market later at a mid-range price and simply represent it as a nice Riviera and stop speculating about why it's "special." Sell it with an "I don't know" rather than trying to make it something it isn't. With everyone's BS detectors going off, you're going to have a hard time selling any car.

 

And remember: the internet never forgets. A Google search related to this car will bring up this thread, now and in the future...

[RivNut]

There are many more ways of telling exactly what you have IF YOU'RE WILLING TO REPLY IN KIND.  There are casting numbers and date codes on the intake manifold.  There is an identification code on the transmission, there are ID codes on the carburetors.  But what everyone really wants to see a picture of are 1) The data plate on the firewall - missing RED FLAG.  The VIN tag on the cowl AND the matching Engine Serial Number on the block - can't / won't do it: RED FLAG.  No one is asking anything of you that they'd ask of anyone selling a car.  If you can answer the questions you've been asked and can supply pictures to back them up, you might be taken seriously.  My personal feeling is that you bought the car "as advertised", you've  realized that you got dupped, and now your trying to pass it off as it was sold to you; not what it really is.  A picture is worth 10,000 words.

 

Ed

[Pat Curran]

Well stated Matt and Ed.  Between us all, there are hundreds of years of experience with the Buick Riviera and although we all learn something new from time to time, we know how to give intelligent responses that are based on factual knowledge and personal learning experiences to most all questions asked on this forum. 

[Guest Korvun]

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/261803-need-help-identifying-an-odd-riviera/page-2#entry1406589

I haven't been posting on this forum because this wasn't my topic. The link is the topic I started before my father decided to post it on his own on Craigslist. It has many more pictures and much more information.

[Pat Curran]

Another fact that you may want to consider is the Gran Sport emblem itself.  The early 65's had an emblem that measured 3" X 1.5".  This emblem was enlarged several months into production (most sources agree that it was sometime in December 1964) to 5.3/4 X 1.5/16.  The car in question has the larger emblems. 

[RivNut]

Excellent point.  It would be extremely hard to put a late Gran Sport emblem on a car "supposedly" built early in the production because it used up the last of the '64 parts. 

 

Perhaps soon some of those revealing photos we've been asking for will be posted.  Should we ask the seller about the "GS handling package?" Shhhhh! Those of us who know, need to keep quiet and see how much rope this guy will give himself.

 

Ed

[Bleach]

He has plenty of rope from when he masqueraded as a potential buyer at the beginning in the other thread.

[Guest Korvun]

Excellent point.  It would be extremely hard to put a late Gran Sport emblem on a car "supposedly" built early in the production because it used up the last of the '64 parts. 

 

Perhaps soon some of those revealing photos we've been asking for will be posted.  Should we ask the seller about the "GS handling package?" Shhhhh! Those of us who know, need to keep quiet and see how much rope this guy will give himself.

 

Ed

 

As I said, I'd answer more questions in the other thread. And your sarcasm has become pretty childish.  I'm not sure why you've taken the stance of the insulted car buyer, like my we're trying to rip you off, personally.  Also, people who know, don't need to say "those of us who know".  I genuinely asked for help from "people who know" and all I'm getting out of you is pathetic attempts at childish humor in the attempt to 'one up' me or look cool for your friends.  If you don't genuinely have something interesting to say that MIGHT add some insight into the conversation, then please, take your sarcasm and your petulant little prods elsewhere.  Grown-ups are talking.

 

He has plenty of rope from when he masqueraded as a potential buyer at the beginning in the other thread.

 

Nobody "masqueraded" as a potential buyer.  My post in the other thread VERY CLEARLY identifies me as the son of the owner.  Take off your tin foil hat, please.

[RivNut]

Well tell us then, does your car have the "Gran Sport handling packagle?"  You post some pictures and I'll give you some straight answers.

[Guest Korvun]

Well tell us then, does your car have the "Gran Sport handling packagle?"  You post some pictures and I'll give you some straight answers.

 

I've already directed you, twice now, to the thread I created for answers to every question that has been asked.  This is not my thread.  It was created by somebody else without my knowledge or that of my father.  I'm not going to double post the same information just because you don't want to click the provided link or simply click the post under the general discussions section titled "Need Help Identifying an Odd Riv".  And I don't answer trick questions for your entertainment.  At this point, I don't believe you're even remotely capable of giving a straight answer.  Espeically given that you'd rather make snide remarks than click a simple link that answers all of your jokes, err "questions". 

 

And take note of the title of my thread.  I ask for help in identifying and ODD Riv.  Not a Gran Sport, not an exceptionaly rare, never before seen, Bill Mitchel special edition.  Just an odd riv that may or may not be a frankencar.  If it IS a frankencar, sweet!  It answers my questions.  Hell, as far as hobbled together cars go, this one is pretty damn sexy!

 

Now, if you want to put your insane rabble aside and join me for some respectful, insightful discourse in the other forum, please, I invite you to join me.  If you know half as much about Rivieras as you claim, then maybe you'll teach me something I don't already know, which would be fantastic.  Of the 3 65 Rivieras my family and I currently own, one of which IS an uncontested Gran Sport, I have learned quite a bit about the car.  Add to that the dozen or so Rivieras ranging from 63 to 95 that my father has owned over the years, he puts my knowledge to shame.  As far as I'm concerned, this thread is done.  Once again, I invite you over to mine where all the info I have has been posted.

[petelempert]

Just....let it go. PRL

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: I see it as the guy didn't do his homework. When people don't do their homework and put something up there for big dough (sometimes less too) they are always gonna get jacked around....as what happened.   It played out like he was trying to get slick, dissed your favorite car in the process and got some nasty feedback.

 

Price?  How many would do judgement if it were heck-a-cheep? Y'all would be trying to buy it.

 

Lessons?  No matter what we put out there it's really critical to do as much homework about the product for sale as possible. This eliminates much drama and hopefully gets the job done....which is to sell the product and know that all aspects of the deal are acceptable. On the 1960 Buick Universe I state in my preamble....Judgements are OK. Just say why and own it.

 

Donald Trump.  One reason I  love this guy is because he reminded us that the mold for holding back saying what needs to be said needs to be broken.  Many people have bashed me. I would rather they pick me up and take me out for Pizza but at the end of the day I'm here, I'm doing fine and I do love seeing it as I call it.  In this case I believe it was that the car was offered by Frank and Stein. And Yes, I was making fun of the seller for not doing their homework.    Mitch

[1965rivgs]

OK Riviera People: I see it as the guy didn't do his homework. When people don't do their homework and put something up there for big dough (sometimes less too) they are always gonna get jacked around....as what happened.   It played out like he was trying to get slick, dissed your favorite car in the process and got some nasty feedback.

 

Price?  How many would do judgement if it were heck-a-cheep? Y'all would be trying to buy it.

 

Lessons?  No matter what we put out there it's really critical to do as much homework about the product for sale as possible. This eliminates much drama and hopefully gets the job done....which is to sell the product and know that all aspects of the deal are acceptable. On the 1960 Buick Universe I state in my preamble....Judgements are OK. Just say why and own it.

 

Donald Trump.  One reason I  love this guy is because he reminded us that the mold for holding back saying what needs to be said needs to be broken.  Many people have bashed me. I would rather they pick me up and take me out for Pizza but at the end of the day I'm here, I'm doing fine and I do love seeing it as I call it.  In this case I believe it was that the car was offered by Frank and Stein. And Yes, I was making fun of the seller for not doing their homework.    Mitch

Great post Mitch, especially the third paragraph,, hope everything works out satisfactorily for both seller and the eventual buyer

  Tom Mooney