Just got my first TC

[Guest EmmettTC]

On 4/15/2016 at 2:41 PM, Reaper1 said:

Oh, I guess I should update on the running issue. So I finally got to drive it the other day and the problem persists. I yanked the plugs and I didn't like what I saw at all...looked like it was running lean. So, I checked the fuel pressure. Static is 55psi (normal), dynamic at idle is about 45psi (again, about normal), but when I clamped off the return line it only went to 60psi (NOT normal...should shoot to ~80-90psi)!! I'm betting the PO installed a TBI pump. Good thing the other car has a brand new tank in it with the right pump...so I guess I'll be doing that swap this weekend (if weather holds).

Guess who else is in the lean club haha

[Guest EmmettTC]

plugs kinda toasty looking. What are the best replacement injectors?

[Reaper1]

Alrighty, so I FINALLY got the thing back together last night. I cleaned the valve body (stock, no mods...but it was tempting), replaced the filter and 6 quarts of fluid (it drained some out of the converter), adjusted the bands. Result: the best automatic shifting A413 I've ever felt! Clean, crisp shifts that aren't too harsh. It STILL has a WOT issue, but I'm not chasing it anymore. I know the engine is good and I know the tranny is good. It could be injectors or the TPS or...but I'm 99% it's not mechanical. Thus, no need to go forward. I'm now concentrating fully on the engine swap.

 

As for best replacement injectors...good question. I've only ever used stock or MOPAR performance injectors. I know there are many new designs out there and a lot of those incorporate better spray patterns and better atomization of the fuel, so it could be that aftermarket ones could work better. For a stock application, it's hard to say.

[Reaper1]

PROGRESS!!! I *FINALLY* got the dash harness all repaired and I think I have created a "world's first and only". I fully integrated a 1987-1989 G/J-body digital instrument cluster AND the automatic climate controls. A person would be hard pressed to look at it and not think the factory did the mod, which is exactly what I was going for. I also had to replace the entire pink wire run for the interior lighting that goes to the right side of the car. Somehow it got so hot it melted the sheathing and I'm sure was only a few seconds away from turning the car into a "Ferrari" LOL! The donor harness is a ghost of its original self!

 

I will be starting on the engine bay harness this week.

 

I also cleaned the engine, but the stupid paint came off of it (I kinda thought that would happen), so I have to re-do that. I also have to get the engine up on the stand so I can pop the pan off and inspect it..

 

I can't remember if I posted about it, but I also was able to press out the old bushings for the control arms I'm going to use ('89/'90 stamped double pivot). The one side was "easy" using my big C-clamp. The other side I made a "tool" using all thread, 2 wrenches, a washer, and 2 nuts. I basically "pulled" the other pushing out using that method. Ironically the bushings looked to be in great shape, but, eh...I have better ones! I also got a new bottle of argon, so I can weld the bobble strut bracket onto the new K-frame.

 

LOTS of work to do still!

[Guest EmmettTC]

put up pics of the Dash!!!

[Reaper1]

I plan to. Last night I wanted to light it up outside of the car using only the dash harness. That was a no-go The cluster works fine...I tested it out before. I also know the button backlighting works fine and the Automatic Temperature Control (ATC) buttons also light up. The aspirator motor for the ambient temperature sensor also works and I hear the vacuum solenoid controller click on as well. I could not get the ATC head unit to stay lit up while testing it separately. For some reason it briefly lights up the screen when I take power from it, but it wouldn't stay on. I'm suspecting that all the jumpering I tried to do to get the thing to come on just wasn't right. The engine bay harness is still all apart, so I can't connect it just yet. My plan is to finish up the engine bay harness, then plug it all in and see if I can get it to light off that way. The good thing is I left the ability to leave the original equipment in the car, so if for some reason the components I'm trying to integrate don't work, I can always revert.

[Reaper1]

I started the integration of the PDC (power distribution center) in the engine bay harness last night. At first I thought I messed up, but after staring at it for a while I got sick of feeling like that and decided to follow my gut (which said I was right) and kept going. I even made another peg board for doing this as well. It's not as big or as nice as the one I made for the dash harness, but it's functional. I decided to implement a different method of connecting large wires this time. In the past I've done this vie open-air soldering using a butane torch. This time I'm using only the metal part of butt connectors, crimping it, soldering it, and using waterproof heat shrink. So far it makes a nice compact connection that I know will never go anywhere.

[Reaper1]

Got quite a bit done last night. A few more hours of messing with the spaghetti and I should be able to plug stuff up and see if it works!

[Guest EmmettTC]

On 5/6/2016 at 1:32 PM, Reaper1 said:

Got quite a bit done last night. A few more hours of messing with the spaghetti and I should be able to plug stuff up and see if it works!

Good luck!

[Reaper1]

Well, here's the result! I have a couple of bugs to work out regarding the temp control, but those are only with that system, not what I did to integrate it. But, everything seems to work otherwise!

 

[Reaper1]

I drove the car on the longest trip I've taken it on thus far. ~600 miles or so. Took it over the eastern Washington. The car did fairly well. I tried to mitigate a potential cooling issue by installing a Chevy S10 lower air dam under the front of the car on the core support. I don't know if it helped or not, but the car was certainly pretty darn stable at ~80mph (I'd heard that they can get a little floaty up there). As for the cooling issue...well...not sure. It got pretty darn hot going up the long hills, but it never overheated and it would cool right down once the load was taken away. I got about 22-23mpg, too...which impressed me. Time to start buckling down for the swap. I'm pretty darn close!

[Guest EmmettTC]

2 hours ago, Reaper1 said:

I drove the car on the longest trip I've taken it on thus far. ~600 miles or so. Took it over the eastern Washington. The car did fairly well. I tried to mitigate a potential cooling issue by installing a Chevy S10 lower air dam under the front of the car on the core support. I don't know if it helped or not, but the car was certainly pretty darn stable at ~80mph (I'd heard that they can get a little floaty up there). As for the cooling issue...well...not sure. It got pretty darn hot going up the long hills, but it never overheated and it would cool right down once the load was taken away. I got about 22-23mpg, too...which impressed me. Time to start buckling down for the swap. I'm pretty darn close!

Wow that was with the new digital dash? That's awesome to hear. I'll be taking mine a meager 130 miles each way to the largest car show in Wisconsin, all freeways. I'm sure there's people a lot more knowledgeable about these specific suspensions, but with stock springs and aftermarket performance shocks, these things can handle at high speed no problem. I have KYB mono-tube gas-a-just shocks in the rear and it is a highway monster. Hard sway bar bushings add a lot too. What speed were you taking the inclines at? 

[Reaper1]

No digital dash quite yet. I was trying to make sure that the electronic climate control was working before I wrapped the harness and installed everything. I'm not 100% sure, but I *think* the vacuum/power module was actually bad, plus I do have to fix 1 wiring issue I found (might have been the cause of my issue to begin with), so I'm glad I didn't just wrap it all up and "go". I recently was able to get a new vacuum/power module and I think after I fix my wiring mistake it'll be golden!

 

The hills were ~5% grade...dunno how long, but I was going over Snoqualmie Pass.

 

I have been making some slower progress on other stuff. I got a sinus infection that was kicking my @ss for about a week, so I had slowed down a bit. I got the intake and exhaust manifolds off of the 16V engine. So far it looks good (knocking on wood). I had to fully strip the paint off of the intake. The exhaust *thought* it was going to fight me, but I won! I didn't even have to cut a single bolt! Now...in order to put the 16g turbo on it I was at a crossroads. I had a bunch of options I could have gone with, but I chose one that, *if* it works...it'll be epic! I found out that the Mitsubishi 4B11T engine found in the Evo X has a 96mm bore pitch (center to center measurement). That is either exactly what ours is or ~1mm difference. So, I ordered a cast stainless turbo exhaust manifold for one of those! The flange looks so close to working it isn't even funny, so I'm crossing my fingers!

 

As for suspension, currently this car has KYB GR-2's in the back and I'm really not sure what is up front. It rides nice and smooth, but tilts over like a sail boat going around corners! LOL My current plan is Spirit R/T springs with possibly Koni Insert-a-strut up front and QA-1's out back. WAY more than this car will EVER need. The front control arms and sway bar are PolyBushings equipped (or they will be). I *might* add a rear sway bar to this car because I think it might actually help. My Daytona didn't need one because of how balanced I was able to make that car. I'm not trying to make a track car out of it, but I do want to firm it up a little and be able to go around corners without worrying about the side of my face scraping the ground! LOL

[Guest EmmettTC]

The biggest difference for me was wheel spacers, I added 1 inch spacers to each corner and this thing hugs corners like no ones business. I had to pull the fenders a little bit for proper wheel clearance though. It looks badass. You'll be surprised by how big of a handling difference monotube struts make though.

[Reaper1]

The wheels I currently have on the car are a 35mm offset, so they are pushed out I think as far as I would dare until you would have to either roll or stretch the fenders. Having good rubber helps, too. The BIGGEST thing to get right...the alignment. I don't honestly know if they kept the crap K-car alignment specs or not (never looked in that section of the FSM), but if it calls for ANY positive camber or nothing but toe-in...basically ignore it! That is GARBAGE for good handling. Run -.5* to -1* camber and 0 to 1/8" total toe out. The camber helps corner grip, the toe helps quicken steering response (turn-in). One thing to keep in mind, the more toe-out, the more the car will "hunt" on crowned roads. For the rear, 0* to -.5* camber and 0 to 1/16" total toe IN. Because of the way our rear suspension works, running a ton of rear negative camber does very little to help cornering grip. There's no need for it. You want either zero or just a tad of toe IN on the rear for stability at higher speeds (highway speeds). Having it closer to zero will help the car rotate (get the back of the car to follow the front), but it inherently takes away from higher speed stability. 

 

I have successfully run these, and slightly more aggressive alignment specs for over a decade with no ill effects to tire longevity and no detriments that I was not already aware of, but rewarded with cars that are VERY fun to drive and have limits beyond what most people would want to push on the street.

 

[Reaper1]

Well, today was kind of rollercoaster. It started out nicely. I recently got the new vacuum/power module for the electric temperature control, so I got the whole harness back together, plugged it all in and...badabing! It works! 

 

Cool, now I can finally rewrap the harness. So, I get going on that until I run out of harness tape.

 

Then I decide I need to have a look at the engine's rod and main bearings. So, I cross my fingers and pop #3 rod cap off...and......crap. It looks like possibly from sitting so long either moisture in the crankcase or the oil turning acidic attacked the bearings' babbitt as they are slightly pitted and have some sort of "something" going on with the surface as it is uneven. The strange thing is that the engine was quiet, made good oil pressure, and there was no indication of any issue in the oil or oil pan. #2 rod bearing looked exactly the same. I pulled #3 main bearing to take a look at the thrust wear at the same time. Interestingly there was absolutely NO issues with the main or thrust bearing. The good thing is that the crank looks good with this engine, so I caught this before it really did damage. I have a call in with Rick Diogo to see if I can get my butt saved....again. I know it's a long shot, but I guess we'll see. 

 

I also have a couple of other options as well if I have to employ a different strategy. Crossing fingers...

[Reaper1]

So, here's the bearing dilemma I am up against:

 

[Reaper1]

The good news is the dash wiring harness is almost complete. I just need to finish wrapping a few more things, and it's done!

 

[Guest EmmettTC]

WOW that harness

[Hemi Dude]

On May 22, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Reaper1 said:

So, here's the bearing dilemma I am up against:

 

Nothing unusual here. Just signs of an old rod bearing insert needing replacement.This happens to the rod bearings because they take a pounding, the mains just support the crank and allows it to spin.

I use to have rod inserts make for the 16V engine when I had my shop. I'm sure Rick can supply you with replacements.

 

 

[Reaper1]

I am hoping so! Basically my summer plans now kind of revolve around these bearings! Ugghh...

 

Thanks for the compliments on the harness, Emmett! I think it's a shame that hopefully nobody will ever see it! I am going to do the same with the engine harness, though. I only had to work on the one corner of it, so I only made a smaller board for it, but I am going to totally re-wrap it. More pictures of that to come!

 

[Guest EmmettTC]

Since you happen to know a lot about the electronics of these fine vehicles, would you happen to know where the the connections for the door locks are in the drivers side kick panel? I have a remote start kit and probed the hell out of the harness in the drivers foot well but came out empty handed. I also couldn't find the ignition harness that was mentioned in some wire chart descriptions. I feel like you may offer some insight. 

[Reaper1]

Sure! Let me get home and take a look at my FSM's. 

 

I can tell you for sure that the ignition part of the harness is part of the engine bay harness, not the dash harness. 

 

[Reaper1]

OK...so I still have to look at my FSM's for Emmett. I WILL get that done.

 

I've been kinda on a roller coaster ride the last few days. So, at first I was having horrible luck finding rod bearings. I was fortunate that I was able to source some, but they certainly weren't cheap. I just accept that as having to "pay to play". Funny part is that the cost of them hit the nail on the head for a number I pulled from thin air...and so did 2 other people without knowing what I paid first. Apparently, that's what they are worth! LOL I haven't given up the search for something that can be adapted to work, however. If there is, I haven't come across a person willing to give up that information. I will say that after looking through the King Bearing online catalog, I bet there is *something*.

 

So...having that work out, I got on to ordering more parts for the car and they have started to show up.

 

Then, last night I finally decided to take a look at the rest of the bearings on the engine since I had only checked #2/3 rods and #3 main. I still have the timing belt on, so I haven't gotten to #1 main yet. I did however get to all the rest, and #5 was the last one I pulled...and also the ONLY one that showed any signs of a problem! Uggghh... So, the good news is the crank is fine. I decided to pop the top part of the shell out of the block to check and see how bad the damage was. Well...it was limited to only the bottom shell! Alright. Fine. So, I need to replace the mains (even though all the others look great). I read in the FSM that the crank is *supposed* to be stamped on the first (flywheel end) counterweight as to what bearing sizes that crank uses. Yeah...there's NO markings! So, I decide to check another one of my Masi 16V cranks (totally destroyed...engine threw #4 rod). It doesn't have markings either! I looked all over that d@mn thing! Well...I guess I can't rely on THAT. So, I bust out my calipers and finally figure out that this crank uses standard rod bearings, but .010" oversize mains. Man, THAT had me scratching my head and looking between books for a bit! So, I figured it out and ordered new mains as well. All I have to do is throw new rings in it and it's rebuilt! LOL (NOT in the plan!)

 

So yeah...I basically have 3 weeks (man, that time table has come up before! ) to get this swap completed. I have parts coming and a large portion of the "work" is done. I am really hoping that all of my prepping really does pay off and even though there's a lot to do, the job goes smoothly. I hate doing a half-@ss job and my biggest fear is that my OCD will prevent forward progress. I mean, I am the person that cleaned the INSIDE of the door skin because I hated getting dirty working on the power windows! LOL

 

Anyway, that's where this project is right now.

 

Top tip for ANYONE that has a 16V Masi that has been sitting a long time...*check the bearings*!!! I have showed the pictures of my rod bearings to several very experienced people and we all agree that it looks like moisture got into the crankcase and then worked its way into the tiny space between the rods and the crank where it proceeded to somehow attack the bearings eroding them a bit, and pitting them, also leaving the staining on the crank journals (which is not really a problem). Sitting is the WORST thing for something mechanical. It is known that this car did in fact sit long lengths of time and it was a "beaches" car, meaning it was in a very humid environment. Again, I had NO reason to crack the engine open at all! It made no noise, great oil pressure, and there were no particulates in the oil showing signs of a problem. However, I can PROMISE that this thing wouldn't even have made it a few hours into a trip before it would have eaten itself. I hope that this information helps *somebody* at some point.

[16v_guru]

Reaper:  As for the new rod bearings....you are welcome sir!    Hope to see you and your TC at SDAC!!  I'll be there with my buddy in his Rampage with the 16v Masi motor I supplied him with.  He decided to install it North/South in the engine bay!  He is a nut like you...(and Alan) I think you'll get along well with him.  He laid down somewhere in the high 500whp range with it on *low boost*.   Can't wait to see how your Evo turbo setup works out...I'm interested in following you on that.

[Reaper1]

So, good news, kinda crap news. Good news: got all my bearings today! Thank you again, Rick! 

 

Kinda crap news: so, a few weeks ago I thought I had ordered that Evo manifold. I then discovered my dumb error that I had only put it in my cart. So, I then placed the actual order on May 25. The supposed delivery date was today. Unfortunately, as I go to check the shipping info I see that there is no reported shipping info to eBay and none emailed to me. So, I emailed the company today to get some answers hopefully. I'm going to try and call tomorrow. 

 

Ok, going to check my FSM'S for Emmett right now.

[Reaper1]

Emmett, the answer is that the power lock, window, and mirror system are a separate harness from the dash harness. The connector is on the passenger's side in the foot well behind the panel. Both manuals I have say the connector is black, but in my parts car it's red. Look for the connector that has 2 orange wires, 2 pink wires, 1 red wire, 1 light blue/yellow tracer. The pink, red, and orange are your power locks.

 

HTH!

[Guest EmmettTC]

4 hours ago, Reaper1 said:

Emmett, the answer is that the power lock, window, and mirror system are a separate harness from the dash harness. The connector is on the passenger's side in the foot well behind the panel. Both manuals I have say the connector is black, but in my parts car it's red. Look for the connector that has 2 orange wires, 2 pink wires, 1 red wire, 1 light blue/yellow tracer. The pink, red, and orange are your power locks.

 

HTH!

Ah gotcha! Thank you! I really should get a FSM all the info on the internet for wiring on these seems helpless. 

[Guest EmmettTC]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:14 AM, Reaper1 said:

Sure! Let me get home and take a look at my FSM's. 

 

I can tell you for sure that the ignition part of the harness is part of the engine bay harness, not the dash harness. 

 

So the 

"Ignition Switch Harness"

Is actually under the hood?

[Reaper1]

Yes. The ignition switch wiring is part of the engine bay harness.

[Reaper1]

BTW, I have found discrepancies is in FSM'S, too. Like the color label of this plug. I think it's also funny how on the same page it lists 2 different compression ratios for the 16V engine! Lol 

 

Most notably is the fact that the wiring colors, at least on this harness, weren't exactly the shade of the color the manual calls out. Dark blue is the worst offender....it's more like aqua in real life! Lol 

 

Keep a look out on eBay. I just picked up basically a brand new '89 book for quite a deal!

[Reaper1]

So my awesome news yesterday turned into me being mad at myself. At least the rod bearings are correct, but somehow I got the wrong measurement on the main journals, thus I ordered the wrong blasted bearings! *grumble cuss grumble* I even measured all of the journals (excluding #1) multiple times, so theoretically I *should* have at least gotten the correct measurement *once*. Well, I suppose my measuring device wasn't that great as it caused me to get the wrong parts.

 

So, I had to order another set of standard main bearings and pay extra for shipping to get them on Tuesday. I will be getting all the other stuff in order while I'm waiting, but this is looking more and more like it's going to turn into a thrash...NOT how I wanted to do it. I'm just really hoping that my planning and preparations pay off and all this aggravation becomes a memory I can laugh at!

[Reaper1]

I got a response from the company that makes the exhaust manifold I'm trying to get. For better or worse it won't be ready until the end of June. I am taking this as a sign and will be holding off on the installation of the larger turbo, exhaust, etc. until after I get back from SDAC26. Time is simply too short to truly accomplish getting all that done by myself. 

 

While it disappoints me, I can't help but also think about the consequences of rushing something like this, so I think it's the right choice. 

 

Anyway...work continues!

[Reaper1]

The bobble strut bracket is now welded onto the new K-frame and that is all primered. The new ball joints are installed in the control arms and the Poly Bushings as well. 

 

Unfortunately I got sick at work today and got jack done at home, too. Arghh.

[Guest EmmettTC]

Those are were big goals for that short of a time frame haha major swaps often take a ton of time! Not a big deal that you cant get the header and turbo.

[TwinCamFan]

I'm a buyer on your stock 16V  manifold when youre done with it...

[Reaper1]

Well...I got a LOT done this weekend....BUT....not enough. I started to actually work on Saturday about noon (after I built a tool to take the crank snout timing pulley off). I didn't go to bed until 5am the next morning. Got up at 10...worked until 9pm last night. The engine STILL isn't together! I just can't leave things be.

 

So. Good news. The main bearings all came in perfect clearances. The rod bearings...well....they are +.0004" outside of Masi spec, but WELL within Chrysler spec, so...not going to worry about it! (for better or worse). I blueprinted the oil pump, opened up the oil supply hole in the block, opened up the oil strainer screen, replaced the front main seal, took the water pump off to clean it and install a new pump. I also finished painting the new K-frame and a few more brackets. I then straightened and filed the rails on the oil pan, knocked some dents out of it, sanded and painted that. I put the adjustable cam gears on it, and reinstalled the valve cover with a new gasket! (I never did find a torque spec on the valve cover nuts in either of my TC manuals!?...105inlb is what I went with) I think I actually got more done than that, but I just can't remember it all. Time sort of just starts melting and everything mashes together after a certain point. I was well into that by 5am! LOL

 

Of course all that sounds like it should only take a little bit of time instead of all weekend, but consider that I'm cleaning and removing corrosion from every part, and repairing/painting/etc as needed....these things take time. More time that I anticipated by 5-fold at least. My rule has been, and will continue to be, don't take the car apart until I'm ready to do the swap 100%. At this point, I'm not sure if it's going to get done before I have to leave for SDAC. That's OK, though because it runs and drives fine the way it is. I just need to charge the A/C. If I have to drive it stock to SDAC, then I will. I'm going to continue plugging along, though.

[Reaper1]

So I made the executive decision earlier this week that I'm going to drive the car to SDAC in stock form. I'm just being too picky about the way I want to put things back together to meet the time frame and I don't want to just slap it together just to have to take it back apart to do it again. Plus, I won't have the added stress of the "what if something I did messes up?" question rolling through my head.

 

I did get a couple more things done (installed the oil pump, painted another bracket, put the water pump together with a new pump).

 

So anyway, my plan is to leave either the 22nd or 23rd from Everett, Wa for SDAC26 and take the north route through Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, then Memphis! About 2400 miles 1-way!

 

I searched a bit on here regarding towing with a TC, but only came up with 1 thread (no real answers). I have a friend who has a hitch he took off of his Spirit he's willing to let me borrow, so I'm going to see if that fits. If so, I'm going to tow a small trailer as well! I know some people might have a problem with that, but I know that others tow with our turbo cars/vans all the time with no issues. I'm going to install my oil cooler (because I firmly believe that all turbo engines should have one) and possibly install a known good radiator since the car did want to run a little warm going over the pass a couple of weeks ago. I'm hoping for good top-down weather on the way to and from. They are calling for decent weather while we are there, so here's to hoping that stays true!

 

I did get the correct power steering pressure hose...finally! So, I'll be able to at least get that fixed!

 

Wish me luck!

[TwinCamFan]

Chris have you upgraded the rear springs yet?  If you put 100lbs in the trunk it's gonna bottom over every dip for 4800 miles.  If you have some Shelby Daytona or IROC rear springs kicking around, theyre perfect for TC's with 5/8's of a coil cut off.  No more bottoming after that..

[Hemi Dude]

23 hours ago, Reaper1 said:

I searched a bit on here regarding towing with a TC, but only came up with 1 thread (no real answers). I have a friend who has a hitch he took off of his Spirit he's willing to let me borrow, so I'm going to see if that fits. If so, I'm going to tow a small trailer as well! I know some people might have a problem with that, but I know that others tow with our turbo cars/vans all the time with no issues. I'm going to install my oil cooler (because I firmly believe that all turbo engines should have one) and possibly install a known good radiator since the car did want to run a little warm going over the pass a couple of weeks ago. I'm hoping for good top-down weather on the way to and from. They are calling for decent weather while we are there, so here's to hoping that stays true!

 

Wish me luck!

I use to tow all the time with my 1985 Plymouth Voyager. With a 3.0L v6 under the hood. I have towed cars as far as from North Carolina to California.  You should have no problems towing a small trailer.