Guest VTRex Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 When I come out to go to work in the morning everything seems fine. But if I drive until the car is thoroughly warmed up and then shut it off, it won't restart.If I try to start it when it is fully warmed up it seems to catch at first but then stumbles and stalls. After trying a couple more times it will then cease to even fire. It has to sit for about two hours and then it will start right up again like nothing was wrong.As a side note, I don't know if this is related but I get the slight smell of fuel from time to time (yikes!).Mine is a '91.Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rp1967 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Fuel pumps can cease to make pressure when hotTry checking your fuel pressure (30-35 psi ) if memory serves or spray a flammable choke cleaner in the intake and see if it fires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 it could be many things. start with checking any codes stored: http://reattaowner.com/roj/onboard-diagnostics/how-to-access-trouble-codes#2-how-to-access-the-codes-for-90-91-models if none, check your fuel pressure. it should be 37 to 45 psi. could also be a crank sensor problem. these won't show any codes. my first check would be the ignition control module (ICM) - it's under the coils. a common problem. if you see any green or gray "goo" upon inspection, that is probably the problem. hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDirk Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Just a note, this car is a 91 so has the Delco ignition setup. Not ruling out an ICM failure but have not know the Delco unit to exhibit the green slime issue as with the Magnovox module, so cannot say if that will be evidence of a problem in this case. KDirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I had a VW with a bad fuel pump. When it got warm the car would just sputter and die while I was driving. After I let it cool off the car would run again. My Reatta doesn't die when it's running. It just won't start when it's warm.It also doesn't randomly stall/start, which after doing a little research online seems to be a symptom of a bad crankshaft position sensor. I'm definitely going to try checking the pressure and my codes.Thanks for the input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I had a VW with a bad fuel pump. When it got warm the car would just sputter and die while I was driving. After I let it cool off the car would run again. My Reatta doesn't die when it's running. It just won't start when it's warm.It also doesn't randomly stall/start, which after doing a little research online seems to be a symptom of a bad crankshaft position sensor. I'm definitely going to try checking the pressure and my codes.Thanks for the input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rp1967 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Fuel pumps don't all act the same when they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Agreed.And it does seem like the engine is being starved. If I spray starting fluid into the air intake it fires. Need to put a pressure meter on it!Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I had a VW with a bad fuel pump. When it got warm the car would just sputter and die while I was driving. After I let it cool off the car would run again. My Reatta doesn't die when it's running. It just won't start when it's warm.It also doesn't randomly stall/start, which after doing a little research online seems to be a symptom of a bad crankshaft position sensor.I'm definitely going to try checking the pressure and my codes.Thanks for the input! As you say, a fuel supply problem will usually cause a problem with the engine running. If you have enough fuel pressure for the engine to run you should have enough pressure for the engine to start. However, checking fuel pressure is always a good idea to rule that out before changing ignition parts. Do the easy things first. Don't rule out the crankshaft position sensor (or the ICM) as the problem just because the engine will run. The crankshaft position sensor sends two signals to the ICM. A 3X signal and a 18X signal. If the ICM sees the 18X signal after the engine starts it will continue to run until the engine is shut off... even if it loses the 3X signal. The ICM needs both signals for the engine to start. The bottom line is either a defective crankshaft position sensor or defective ICM can prevent the engine from starting when they get hot even if the engine will run once it is started. I would put my money on a bad ICM. I would remove the ICM connector and make sure it is clean and tight before swapping any parts. When the engine fails to start have you checked to see if you have spark at the plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I assume I have spark. When I spray starter fluid into the air intake it fires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I'm trying to work my way through the ecm error codes. I've looked at the chart on your website but I don't quite understand what I'm looking at. First message is "no E". Is that No Error?Next code is 6446H6447C6552Hr061Hor are those lower case Bs ( b )? As in b446H? Edited August 2, 2015 by VTRex (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I assume I have spark. When I spray starter fluid into the air intake it fires. It would have been helpful if you had mentioned that in your original post. Your statement in your original post, "I don't know if this is related but I get the slight smell of fuel from time to time (yikes!).", made me think it was getting fuel. Edited August 2, 2015 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I think the "6" is a "b". b446 is low freon.b552 can be caused by disconnecting the battery cable. None of the point to something that would keep the engine from starting. Low fuel pressure nor most ignition problems will set a code. Edited August 2, 2015 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikemikey Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 It's a long shot, but you might have corroded battery cables. Sometimes they will work when cold, but not so good when hot. But like the others have said, it is probably fuel' related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Yeah. I could do a better job of describing all of my symptoms. Thanks.I guess the question in my mind is, is there a circuit or switch or condition that the computer (or something else) engages when starting hot that isn't in that state when it is not hot? I'm thinking I should start there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Yeah. I could do a better job of describing all of my symptoms. Thanks.I guess the question in my mind is, is there a circuit or switch or condition that the computer (or something else) engages when starting hot that isn't in that state when it is not hot? I'm thinking I should start there. That's a hard question to answer. Nothing comes to mind for me. If you suspect a fuel problem, which makes sense now that I know it will start on starter fluid, your next step should be to check fuel pressure when the engine will not start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I just went to 2 auto parts stores to find a pressure gauge. Nadda!I just ordered one through your site. Back to this thread when I get it in.One more thought: a guy I know has an F150. He claims to have the exact same problem. The sites he cruises are saying Fuel Pressure Regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Place to start is with a fuel pressure gauge. Then if you see the pressure come up when you turn the key on but drop fairly quickly when off that could be a bad regulator or an injector stuck open (first often will smell fuel in the vaccuum line, second will run rough at idle). If pressure does not come up even with 12v applied to the green connector it is in the fuel delivery system. Since runs ok cold and stalls hot then probably not a clogged line or filter which leaves the pump. If pump, change any rubber hoses and the filter also. Used to be I'd only use Delco pumps but not sure any more. Would avoid cheap ones, takes too much time/effort to change. Suggestions ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Well, I got impatient. I bought a new FPR and put it in. I drove the car till it was thoroughly warmed up. I shut it off and waited about 10 minutes. Usually it will not stay running when I try to restart. After a new FPR the problem seems to be the same. At first I thought it might be the vacuum hose which is pretty rubber rotted. But it seems to be air tight.If I have a injector sticking open how can I tell which one it might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Anderson Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Use a stethoscope with a probe or a large screwdriver and put your ear to it and listen. A working injector will be clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rp1967 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Best to just CAREFULLY !! Remove the rail and visually check for an injector dripping fuel when the rail is pressurized.If you don't have the patience to stand and watch, put a piece of white paper under each injecto and come back in a few min to see if any are yellow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) A sticky injector just doesn't make sense to me. It would not dump all the fuel pressure while pump is running, it would only give maybe a puff of black smoke on startup. If the fuel rail drained, it would refill quickly and would have the same symptom cold or hot. As for pulling the rails with the injectors, that is no piece of cake, makes me wonder if rp1967 has actually ever done that. Not sure that it is even possible to remove and maintain pressurization. Edited August 2, 2015 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Just a thought, have you tried holding the throttle down a little while trying to start it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 It's hard to say when it first started doing it. I know it's been a few months. But normally I drive to work and then drive home. That's it.And winters are pretty cold here in Vermont.I did have to replace 1 coil back in March. I put a new plug and wire on the cylinder that was bad. But I haven't gotten to replace the other plugs and wires. When I spray starter fluid into the air intake it fires. But it also fires when I first try to start it hot. I don't want to keep spraying fluid in to see if it will actually keep running. So, hard to say it's not still an ignition problem ( I guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Hmm.. here's a funning thing that does seem to work: when I first start it hot it really stumbles. But if I get it running and put it quickly into 1st and get it going and get the revs up to around 3 grand then it kind of clears it's throat and will run.If I just let it sit there, it will stumble and stall. And then will not restart until it cools off. Edited August 2, 2015 by VTRex (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Well, when you get your fuel pressure guage and a spark tester, you will likely figure it out quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Yup. Stay tuned! Whatever it is I'll be posting the solution!Thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 We could speculate on the cause of this problem all day long. I have several Fuel System Tutorials on how to troubleshoot a problem like this on my website. I would start with the Fuel Pressure Testing tutorial. This problem could be as simple as a bad fuel pump relay that stops working when it gets hot. Only proper testing will tell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rp1967 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 my bet is still on the pump by the way.Just sounds like the many I have replaced especially in hot July /August weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HuevosRanchero Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) If nothing else gives you headway, try unplugging the vacuum hose from the pressure regulator and also unplug the oxygen sensor and try to start the car..... Edited August 4, 2015 by HuevosRanchero (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Doubtful, stuck injector makes hard to start and rough idle not no start. Thought you were getting a fuel pressure guage ? Have heard of pumps that once started will keep running but won't start when doesn't feel like it (hot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Doubtful, stuck injector makes hard to start and rough idle not no start. Thought you were getting a fuel pressure guage ?Have heard of pumps that once started will keep running but won't start when doesn't feel like it (hot).My 2004 Dodge pickup fuel pump would not run unless you beat on the gas tank to get it started. Once started it would run until you cut it off again. It only had 49000 miles on it. New fuel pump ($235) cured the no start problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Fuel presdure gauge on it's way. Supposed to arrive on Wednesday. I will definitely be posting results Wednesday afternoon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So, preliminary result: (gauge came in a day early):I checked it as soon as my gauge came in. The car was still pretty warm. Not hot but 3 bars lit.Before turning on the ignition: zeroTurning on ignition: around 20 psi.After starting: 20 psi.Flicking accelerator: fluctuates between 17 - 21 (approximately).The car really stumbles at that temp when I hit the gas quickly. I know if it's thouroughly warmed up it doesn't do that.I put a new FPR in on Sunday and a new vacuum hose to the FPR.I need to check it cold and then when I get home tonight.Question: is there some kind of calibration I need to do to the gauge? I want to be sure the low reading isn't due to operator head-space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wws944 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So, preliminary result: (gauge came in a day early):I checked it as soon as my gauge came in. The car was still pretty warm. Not hot but 3 bars lit.Before turning on the ignition: zeroTurning on ignition: around 20 psi.After starting: 20 psi.Flicking accelerator: fluctuates between 17 - 21 (approximately).The car really stumbles at that temp when I hit the gas quickly. I know if it's thouroughly warmed up it doesn't do that.I put a new FPR in on Sunday and a new vacuum hose to the FPR.I need to check it cold and then when I get home tonight.Question: is there some kind of calibration I need to do to the gauge? I want to be sure the low reading isn't due to operator head-space. 20 psi is way low. When you turn the key off, does the pressure stay at 20? Or does it quickly go to zero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Seems to be holding. But for how long should it hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Seems to be holding. But for how long should it hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 It's been about 90 minutes and it has leaked down to about 11 psi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VTRex Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 The car only has 81k miles on it. Could it be the filter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 If you have any doubts about the fuel pressure gauge being accurate you can try it on another car. I really doubt there is a problem with the gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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