Vintage car prices

[Rogillio]

I am not currently in the market for another car but I can't help but use my internet surfing time to look at vintage cars.....more specifically, the year and make of my cars.

 

Maybe I'm thinking I will stumble upon a 'barn find' of someone who doesn't know what the car is worth and I will get a real bargain.  But more often than not what I find is people who think their car is worth WAY MORE than it is worth.  Over the years of looking literally hundreds of cars for sale I have a pretty good feel for what my cars are worth.  And every so often I will see my car listed at 3x, 4x or more what the car is actually worth.

 

I can't help but think they are in for a rude awakening and if they would just do a modicum of research they can easily find what the current market price is for their vintage car.  OTOH, there are buyers out there who also fail to do their research and will pay 3x, 4x or more what the car is worth thinking they are getting a good deal.  I know because I bought a car off eBay that the owner had bought off of CL the day it was listed.  He THOUGHT he had found a great car that he could flip....but after a week on eBay and doing some research he found the car was worth about what he'd paid for it.  So he got his money back when I bought it from him but he did not make it rich like he thought he was going to do.

 

Full disclosure.  I also know there are idiots who pay too much for a car thinking they are getting a bargain because I have done exactly that!  I saw a car on CL that I thought was a steal!  I made an offer and he accepted and I just knew I was getting a great deal.  Turns out, after doing the research (after I bought the car), the car was worth about 1/2 of what I paid for it.  Ouch!

 

If there is a point here it would be, "do your research before you buy!"  :-)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Rogillio (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

A car is worth not what the seller is asking, especially on Craigslist but what the eventual buyer considers its value a month after he pays for it ? Usually the surprises surface in the first month or two. Some people do find buys on CL but a lot more people get fleeced ! If the car is a good buy, it rarely reaches Craigslist. There are exceptions of course. Wayne

[Phillip Cole]

Overpricing seems to have become an online marketing strategy for many sellers. If someone doesn't have a realistic idea of what a car is worth, how well can you trust their appraisal of the car?

[auburnseeker]

However if a seller decides that his car is worth more and decides to keep it instead of sell it for what is being offered then it is actually worth more than what the buyer is willing to pay. (whether it be for sentimental or financial reasons)  Good case in point was my Chrysler. I had offers lower than I wanted to sell it for and people kept telling me that's all it was worth. (although there were no comps to compare it to and it was priced along the lines of similar era convertibles)  Then I did get my price in the end.  It was worth more to me than what I was offered.  When I was finally offered what I thought it was worth I turned it loose. 

  This philosophy is best proven with fairly rare cars.  Doesn't work well with anything common as a buyer will just move on to another one,  just like it in the same color the next town over.

  Now if you are pressed with having to sell it and don't have the choice,  then my philosophy is pretty mute. 

[Taylormade]

I check eBay listings all the time and often chuckle at some of the starting prices (always with RESERVE NOT MET right below).  Most of these cars sit there for a week with no bids, and most of the rest never reach the reserve.  You can click on only "cars that sold" to get a better idea of what things are going for these days.  In that category, there a quite a few nice cars that sold between five and ten grand and seem to have been bought for a reasonable price.  I do often see the same cars coming up as "sold" several times with the same seller, so I have to assume the deal fell through and the car was listed again.  Real bargains are far and few between, but it is fun to look.

[Matt Harwood]

This conversation comes up over and over again. It is my opinion that the buyer is the sole arbiter of what constitutes a good deal and/or the "right price." If the buyer felt he got his money's worth, then the car was worth what he paid, regardless of what us armchair quarterbacks might think on Monday morning.

 

I also have a hard time with setting hard and fast numbers on values. All cars are not alike, even all cars of the same make and model. Does everything work on your cars? Does that one have factory A/C? Is that one full of holes while this one over here has tired paint but pristine sheetmetal? How can any of us say that there's an absolute number attached to a certain make and model of car? Condition is so much more critical. A great car is worth more than a turd, even if they're both technically condition #3 cars. Sure, some guys get all crazy with their prices, but a car priced over "book" value might also warrant closer examination instead of believing the seller (or buyer) is a fool.

 

For example, I have a 1969 Impala SS convertible for sale. It's currently listed at more than twice "book" value ($69,900 vs. about $30,000). Oh, wait a minute, it's got an ultra-rare L72 427/425 engine, of which they built maybe 7 or 8. It's matching numbers, documented, and has a known ownership history back to day one. And it has a recent $100,000 frame-off restoration. Book value? Don't make me laugh. The "book" doesn't even know the L72 1969 Impala exists simply because Chevy didn't mention it in any of their literature--unless you knew which boxes to check on your order form, there was no way to even know you could order such a beast. Sitting next to a garden-variety L36 Impala, this one looks grossly over-priced. But is it?

 

Value is totally subjective. Quality matters. No two cars are the same, so no two values are the same. There are plenty of over-priced turds out there, but that doesn't mean the nice ones are also over-priced simply because they're standing next to each other.

[Rogillio]

So if I find someone who will pay $75k for my Raptor and he is happy with it then that was the right price? Hmmm. I suppose. Some would say the buyer wasted money by paying about $25k too much.

[joe_padavano]

So if I find someone who will pay $75k for my Raptor and he is happy with it then that was the right price? Hmmm. I suppose. Some would say the buyer wasted money by paying about $25k too much.

 

Who cares?  The only people who matter in that transaction are the buyer and the seller.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Matt and Joe, I totally agree with you! I have always felt this way and when the opportunity came for me to own a dream car I paid too much in MY mind. Others said I stole it. Others said I was stupid. You know what, it came down to the fact that the car was not an investment in anything but an investment in my quotient of fun. So, the debate will go on forever but I think it always comes down to whether the seller and buyer are both happy. We all buy and sell for different reasons.

History proves that we as pundits are not always right. Ferrari prices go up and then crash down and everyone says "I told you so" and the next thing you know they skyrocket far beyond anyone's wildest imaginations. All this happened in most of our lifetimes.

I say buy what you like or love and you will be happy! Of course I have been wrong before!

[Paul Dobbin]

Who cares?  The only people who matter in that transaction are the buyer and the seller.

I'll buy that idea. I have not sold to buyers that rubbed me the wrong way and I've cut some super deals to

the ones that I liked. On the other hand I've paid asking price when I thought the car was fairly priced.

Ads, yes I've totally ignored ones that offended my sensibilities on price.

[Guest Skyking]

. Quality matters. No two cars are the same, so no two values are the same. 

 

That's the key factor!!

Edited July 30, 2015 by Skyking (see edit history)

[Rogillio]

Who cares?  The only people who matter in that transaction are the buyer and the seller.

I guess I'm the odd one. I care. If someone pays 1/2 as much as I paid for a very comparable car, then I feel like I paid too much. Likewise, if someone paid 2x as much for a very comparable car I feel like I got a good real.

I understand all cars are different but that only goes so far.

[60FlatTop]

I'm numbers matching Irish heritage AND an ex-sailor. I always pay to much and get the shaft, so my 25 cent tipping friends say. Today I drove up Main Street the second time in a second car and some guy yelled my name for an outside cafe table and asked if was getting them all out. Then I stopped at the diner for coffee and a friend asked "How many cars to you have, anyway. "Too many, and one more would be just right." I got tempted by a 1951 Seagrave right before that.. And when I saw the fire truck I was coming back from shipping parts that I had to eat a $60 miscalculation on. I'll get it back. I have one car left that I bought from someone I don't like. I think I'll sell that car... for a little less than I have in it.

 

If you don't think you are rich, this could be a crumby hobby. Spending money on the car hobby is like buying ammunition for target shooting. It's not an investment, it's a thrill. If you don't feel it take a second look at that quarter tip you leave on the counter.

Bernie

[mercer09]

I guess I'm the odd one. I care. If someone pays 1/2 as much as I paid for a very comparable car, then I feel like I paid too much. Likewise, if someone paid 2x as much for a very comparable car I feel like I got a good real.

 

Rogillio, sounds like you care too much about what others think-all that matters is if you are happy or not...............

spending your life comparing yourself to others will never make you happy-just my opinion............................................

[Scotts_DG8]

All cars, buyers and sellers are not created equal. Some have a talent to find a deal, others have a talent to work a deal, and there are different things working in the background that will effect the deal. I know first hand that I end up with different deals than any of my brothers. I am guilty of having a passion for old cars and that clouds things at times for me, some of the stories I could tell. The point is that Matt's point that no two cars are really alike stands as true in that no deals buyer and seller are alike. That's just a fact of life as I see it and can never be upset if someone got what appears to be a better deal than I may have at a given point in time. Times, cars, deals and people are always changing.  Scott...

[Rogillio]

I guess I'm the odd one. I care. If someone pays 1/2 as much as I paid for a very comparable car, then I feel like I paid too much. Likewise, if someone paid 2x as much for a very comparable car I feel like I got a good real.

Rogillio, sounds like you care too much about what others think-all that matters is if you are happy or not...............

spending your life comparing yourself to others will never make you happy-just my opinion............................................

Nope. Don't give a ratsass what people think. I care only about what I think about myself. I don't like feeling like I got screwed....could not care less if you think I got screwed. Likewise, I like to feel like I got a good deal....doesn't mean squat that you think I got a good deal.

At any rate, there will always be suckers who pay too much and lucky people who paid way less than the market average.

ETA. When I say you, I mean the generic you, :-).

Edited July 31, 2015 by Rogillio (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

Matt hit the nail on the head with his statement that no two cars are alike. I recently bought a 1991 vehicle (what it was is not important). It was a one owner 42000 mile vehicle that was as close to showroom as anything I had ever seen. Every fall he put it away with a full tank of gas, an oil and filter change, waxed the exterior and door jambs, underside of hood and trunk, etc. and removed the battery for the winter.

 

Aside from a few tiny scratches the exterior paint is pristine and mirror gloss (red and black - very unforgiving colors). The weatherstripping is as soft and supple as the day it was made, as are all the soft parts. Because it spent it's entire life out of the light the interior plastic is all the same identical color. The exterior chrome and black trim are flawless. The car has been dealer serviced for 24 years and all hoses, belts, etc are GM stamped. It starts, drives and rides like a new car. I've had it for over a month and have yet to find anything that says anything other than "new" - there is not even surface rust on the frame. I honestly doubt that it has been driven in the rain more than a few times.

 

I gladly paid double KBB for it and would do so again. I had looked at other similar vehicles that were advertised as "showroom", "exceptional", etc and had passed them up at below the KBB figure. No two cars are alike.

[padgett]

In the end "condition is everything". For me if I see rust that is an automatic "no". Lack of working AC is another disqualifier. Always need a couple with manual transmissions and at least one convertible. Am satisfied with the mix I have now though may consider an '09 XLR when the price comes down. None are more than an hour away from fire up and drive off.

 

Have "fixed" cars but never restored one. Of course "fix" includes an engine or axle if needed.

 

Have bought and sold several cars on CL in the past, mostly Fieros and Reatta though found my Crossie there.

 

In the end "value" is whatever you are willing to pay or sell for and for me, a rough car and a nice one will have the same cost in the end, difference is that you get to enjoy a nice one the whole time.

 

Am probably not a good example though: none are stock, all have been "improved" though I usually keep the original parts & "numbers match" is as meaningless to me as "original dirt".

 

So basically it is whatever works for you. In the end the only question is whether your estate sale is advertised in Hemmings.

[John_S_in_Penna]

But more often than not what I find is people who think their car is worth WAY MORE than it is worth. ... 

 

 

 

My impression is that it is a buyer's market for the "average" car,

though perhaps slightly less so now than in the previous 5 years.

Most sellers don't realize this, however, and price their cars optimistically. 

 

An exception would be for nice 1950's tail-finned cars such as 

1958-59 Buicks, Chrysler products, etc., which will see

a buyer's battle on Ebay if they are close to reasonably priced.

 

The typical car from 1916 to say 1926

(past Horseless Carriage Club-eligible) will languish with lookers

but little interest, I believe.  One restorer I know calls this the "dark era."

 

What do others see?  Do a lot of cars from the late 1920's through the 1940's,

except possibly for spectacular Classics, have interest in them gradually waning?

(I don't know of many people aspiring to own a 1929 Buick, for instance.)

Any more observations to add?

Edited July 31, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Seems like nearly everything I become interested in zooms up in price before I can gain a toehold.  I live in the Pacific N.W. quite a long away from most old cars and the local selection is not all that great.  Almost any purchase will involve substantial transport costs, and by the time that's factored in becomes out of reach. Two or three or five years go by and the asking price has doubled or tripled and another one is crossed off the list presumably forever. Its happened on several different types of cars, 1920's Stutz, 1960's English sports racers {Lotus, Elva, etc}, Lotus Cortina, 65 / 66 Mustang GT's, and several others over the past decade.

 Everything I own on the other hand seems to be in adjusted for inflation decline.

 

Greg in Canada

[padgett]

OTOH the Pacific NorthWest seems to be one of the best areas in the country for car preservation so if you find something that has spent its life local, it is probably in better condirion than from other parts of the country.

[D Yaros]

OTOH the Pacific NorthWest seems to be one of the best areas in the country for car preservation so if you find something that has spent its life local, it is probably in better condirion than from other parts of the country.

Am wondering just what makes the Pacific NW "one of the best areas in the country for car preservation?"  Is it the humidity, rain, salt air or snow?  

[C Carl]

Am wondering just what makes the Pacific NW "one of the best areas in the country for car preservation?"  Is it the humidity, rain, salt air or snow?  

Prior to Global Warming , the constant rain kept them in the garage. On dry days , it was often still cloudy , therefore no destructive sun. Snow is surprisingly rare around here , and usually washes away in hours , or a day or two on very rare occasions. A few years ago we had a "once in 50 year snow event". Over reacting to this , the "brightboys" in Seattle finally started salting the streets. Over reacting to just a THREAT of snow , the same bright boys prematurely salt the wet streets these days. Usually the snow does not materialize , therefore , I will drive naught but a throwaway beater for several days until significant rain has washed away all traces of the salt. Humidity is lower than you might think also. In my old age , I selfishly enjoy Global Warming here. Beautiful Summers. In fact , I think I will go for a drive in the '24 Cad this spectacular afternoon , and selfishly contribute to the delightful G.W.! (Avoiding sun , I obsessively park in the shade always). - Carl

[keiser31]

Am wondering just what makes the Pacific NW "one of the best areas in the country for car preservation?"  Is it the humidity, rain, salt air or snow?  

We do not use much if any salt on the roads here in southern Oregon. We use crushed pumice stone in a lot of areas for the snow.

[smithbrother]

My father was a Buick dealer and later in sales, he often said it is easier to sell a NEW car, PRICE is the only difference from dealer to dealer.

USED cars are like Matt pointed out are different, NO used car is alike, so it takes a good salesman to sell such. ANYONE can GIVE a car away, it takes a salesman to produce a PROFIT

He often heard another salesman comment when he saw a customer headed towards the showroom, OH NO, THAT GUY IS JUST A TIRE KICKER, HE's NOT GOING TO EVER BUY. My father liked the challenge so would take the customer, he felt in most cases that customer would buy just needed to be treated in high fashion. Dad made a ton of money selling, and had tons of replete buyers.

A good salesman remains POSITIVE.

Dale in Indy

[John_S_in_Penna]

Am wondering just what makes the Pacific NW "one of the best areas in the country for car preservation?"  Is it the humidity, rain, salt air or snow?  

 

I think that in many cases, the Pacific northwest IS INDEED 

good for car preservation.

 

Several years ago, I needed a rear bumper strip for my 1973

Buick.  In those early years, the rubber strip had a steel band

embedded in it for strength:  Not a good idea, because the metal corrodes,

rippling the rubber and making the whole assembly look poor.

The part wasn't reproduced, so I had to find an excellent used one.

 

The Southwest had rust-free cars, but the rubber deteriorated.

The Northeast had fine rubber, but the steel had corroded.

Only in the Northwest was I able to find a climate good for both

rubber and steel!

 

And Washington and coastal British Columbia get very little snow,

by the way.  B. C.'s climate is like Britain's.

Edited July 31, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

I just got off the Vintage tour, 63 pre 31 cars with a teen aged boy driving a 1910 (can't remember the make) and his sister driving an 08 Buick.  A lot of pre 27's and only a couple of T's.  A lot of interest by this group.  Just my TCW.   Bob Smits

[auburnseeker]

My wife should go into car sales.  She's only sold 2 vehicles.  Both sold in 2 days.  The first the buyer came back and gave her extra money (long story)  the second she priced at 7200.  Which is 1800 over book.  Top book is 5400.  I detailed it pretty good and it looked very nice from the road but was far from spotless.  A guy stopped saw it and made her an offer.  6500.  Crazy.  He was the 3rd person to look at it.  He didn't even test drive it.  I told her it would never sell for more than book.  I guess I'm feasting on crow this evening.   I've never gotten more than book on a newer vehicle I was selling.  

I think she is missing her calling.  

  I sold a truly spotless truck that I bought new and only got driven in the rain when I went to Hershey .  Always stored in a heated garage and never seen winter.  Had 17,000 miles on it. It looked as nice or nicer than the new trucks on the lot down the street as it was spotlessly detailed and had extra premium accessories.  It took almost a year to sell it and I was only trying to get top book.  I in the end had to take a couple grand less.  Still baffles me.  I think it all boiled down to price. It's a whole lot easier to sell a car under 10,000 and closer to 5,000 than it is to sell a 30,000 vehicle. 

[padgett]

Exactly. Do not worry about rust here but sun will destroy paint and plastic (why all of my cars are kept in the garage & always seek shade when out) & something in the air eats rubber (good thing 8 tracks didn't last long, idler wheel in the cassette was famous for melting).

Didn't know Wash had started using salt so fagedaboudit.

[1912Staver]

I generally agree that the condition of cars in WA. and ORE. are pretty good. But here in British Columbia not as much, the previously mentioned rain, rain, rain, plus we do use a fair bit of salt.  I probably have tastes that are above my income , but never start looking at cars I cannot afford. They just seem to be ones that are on their way up in price, and by the time I see 2 or 3 the price trend has taken them well beyond my reach. They are generally not Plymouth, Dodge, Studebaker type cars, but rather cars I find interesting and are often somewhat rare; so not many in any given location, and the usual need for a long distance transport.

   I have been involved with  the hobby car thing for a long time, cars like Aston Martins and late 50's to just before the V8 Masers {3500's Sebring's, Minstrals} were at one time "just" out of reach {and E types, and lots more} or needed more work than I wanted to take on at the time , and now they are all towering in price. As a young sports car mechanic I had plenty of opportunity to buy somewhat down at the heals examples of all these and more, but kept to my usual MG, Lotus , TVR range. My thinking was there were enough DB 2,3,4's  XK 120's etc. around that once I was established with a house I would buy one.  They started increasing at the end of the 80's {just as I bought my house} and have continued up, up, up ever since. Even the Jensen Interceptors that I considered the best bang for the buck deal out there for decades ; fuel cost aside, seem to have taken a noticeable surge up recently.

  Same with the more interesting 20's American cars over the last 10 or 15 years. For a long time  they were fairly modestly priced, they were too new for the brass car scene, and were too old for general old car events, often 2 wheel brakes. or at least dismal brakes compared to say a 34 Dodge. So while interesting cars, they seemed to have limited appeal , and modest price tags, but  have gone up quite a bit in recent years.

   I really don't need another old car of any sort, I have enough on my plate as it is. But like many of us I keep an eye on the market Just in case something pops up.  And I am often shocked just how high the prices have risen on many of the cars I at one time would have thought of as well within my means. If my income is average { by Gov. statistics even a little above average} it sure hasn't kept up with prices.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited August 1, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Inflation.

[auburnseeker]

What do you mean inflation?  The news keeps telling us there is no inflation.  Just quiet deflation in content to keep it in check.  Stuff is measured per unit.  1 bag or box.  not in how much is actually in that bag or box. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[padgett]

And anything you see on the Internet must be true.

Everything I buy except for gasoline has been increasing in price. Since the '70s a gallon of milk and a gallon of gasoline were about the same price. Not now.

[Buffalowed Bill]

For those not familiar with our NW weather, I think the thing that would surprise you the most is that it really doesn't rain all the time here. From early July until at least the middle of September we get no rain! Also during the summer months there is a reasonably low relative humidity. Except for this year where we have already had eleven day of 90 degree, our normal daily weather would be 75-80 degree, with about 35% humidity. For a good part of the year we have a cloud cover which keeps down the UV damage to paint, interiors and rubber. Virtually no snow and little below freezing weather and more importantly no huge temperature swings which causes condensation. We get about half of our 37" of rainfall between November and January but it doesn't fall as snow! What we call rain hear, in most parts of the country you would call drizzle, except Nov.-Jan. then all bets are off. To summarize no snow and ice = little salt, cloud cover much of the year= little UV damage, little summer humidity and temperature swings= little summer humidity damage.

 

Back in the mid eighties I had a non car guy friend from southern California visit Seattle for the first time. After he had been here for about a week, he made the comment that we really had a bunch of junker cars around here. A little stunned, I asked him what he meant and asked him to show me. About a minute later he pointed out a very nice, obviously garage kept, early to mid 60's Buick. Then I realized that in addition to condition, we were also dealing with the mind set that says new is better, this was not the case in the NW, we drove cars a long time because we could. He found no value in driving an old car no matter what the condition. The modern generation has changed the mindset, everywhere, to a counter car culture (except youngsters with their hopped up imports) where cars are seen as a necessary evil and often treated with disdain. However I can still go to many of the less affluent parts of the community and enjoy the car show as people continue to use their twenty to forty year old cars for daily transportation. These are often cars that would have been considered throw away in other parts of the country, but are still on the road here as cheap transportation. Our cars wear out, our cars rust and interiors go away but much slower then almost anywhere that I have been, but it all wears out at about the same rate, no one thing is our car's Achilles's Heal. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

....the more interesting 20's American cars over the last 10 or 15 years. For a long time  they were fairly modestly priced... but  have gone up quite a bit in recent years.

   I really don't need another old car of any sort, I have enough on my plate as it is. But like many of us I keep an eye on the market Just in case something pops up.  And I am often shocked just how high the prices have risen on many of the cars I at one time would have thought of as well within my means....

Greg in Canada

 

Greg, I don't know what 1920's cars you are looking at,

but you may be seeing ASKING prices instead of SELLING prices.

Asking prices, especially from dealers, are sometimes double what

a car is worth, and what a buyer just paid for the car!

Cars from 1916 up to around 1925 are what one restorer

calls "dark era" cars--not flashy, and very little in demand

in recent years.  If you went to a car show in the 1960's,

I understand, they would have been much in vogue.

 

And I wouldn't say that many people aspire to something like

a 1929 Buick these days, either, as nice as those may be.

 

Cars may be more reasonable than you think, so persist in your

looking and don't give up hope.  Even if you don't really "need" another...

Edited August 5, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

One could justify "needing" a Chevy or a Ford for transportation to work or on the farm. Anything else is a discretionary purchase. No one "needs" a Buick or a Cadillac; or an antique or collector car. That is sport selling and sport buying.

 

A recent car I sold got a security deposit and agreement to pick it up the following week. The buyer called 20 minutes after he left and asked what the total was so he could bring the correct amount. That is selling sizzle.

 

Today's market has a couple of kinks, though. The aging buyers are tight. It's just a natural part of getting old for many. I joke about the sexagenarian with his leather snap change purse with quarters for tips. We all remember those guys from the 1960's and '70's and how they wore the same iron clad Sears work uniforms. Today the old guys are carrying debit cards and folding cash is rare. The work uniforms have been replaced with Rock Cafe or motorcycle event t shirts, shorts, and support hose with Nike's. The most common men's accessory seems to be a rubber band in a ratty gray pony tail or beard. There are still shows and cruise nights, take a look.

The other is the guys whom took early retirements and skimmed off a percentage of their retirement account to buy their dream car over the past 20 years of so. The are looking for the money back or they can't keep the cars running (maybe they never did in the first place).

 

Few young people want these cars we cherish. I don't blame them. The cars are an expense and a liability. Inheriting one could be a curse worse than the Brothers Grimm could dream up. The old farts with cars are just too damned serious about it. I have a garage full; more than a rational person would own. I'll probably drive four cars today and only change my socks once.... if I wear any. I'm having a hell of a good time. I watched those old car collectors when I was a kid and they taught me what not to be when I got to their age. I remember the car shows of the 1960's. All the true Classics were newer than my stuff is now.

Bernie

Edited August 5, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)