CCCA wake up!

[Guest]

I was astonished to get with my recent CCCA bulletin a sweeping proposal to allow cars built prior to 1925 that are essentially identical to Full Classics built after 1925 to be admitted as Full Classics.<P>Two things bothered me about this proposal: Why has this club has become so cautious that it needs to put this simple question before the entire membership? Second, this is CCCA's first attempt to expand its Full Classics list in a general way in years and they expand to even older vehicles. I have no problem with before 1925 classics, but this sure isn't going to address the issue of maintaining the membership appeal of the CCCA.<P>I have been a CCCA member for years, and I have become more and more concerned about the narowness of the Full Classics list. As time goes on, this club is going to degenerate into an aging specialty club, you can count on it. Check out the editorial by Nick Fintzelberg in the Bulletin, it is right on the money. <P>I don't understand the need to define the Classic Era as spanning 1925 to 1948. This is so preposterious, there were many vehicles built with exactly the same philosophy as our current Full Classics well outside of this interval. How about the '56 Lincoln Continental, Cadillac Broughams, Imperial limos, Dual Ghias, etc, etc.<P>It does not serve this club well to define Full Classics in a way to almost guarantee the shrinking of this club to older and older geezers. It can be done, we can maintain our exclusivity while expanding our membership and broadening our interest to newer (and older) old cars.<P>Thanks for your attention, see you on the road soon,<BR>Bill S<BR>Albuquerque, NM

[Guest]

This is an interesting and important issue, that of fiddling with the guidelines for the Classic Era. An important aspect that many overlook is that the CCCA is as much about an ERA in which these fine cars were built as it is about the cars themselves. I hope that everyone with similar concerns will take the time to read Bev Kimes new book "The Classic Era", in which she very succinctly illustrates why the Classic Era is what it is and why it only exists during this one very narrow space in our history. That does not diminish the fact that there are a lot of very interesting cars that fall outside the CCCA guidelines. There are many, many more cars that are not Full Classics than there are Full Classics. Between 1925 and 1948 fewer than 1.5 million Full Classics were built in the US, whereas in 1929 alone Ford built 1.7 million Model A Fords. I happen to think that a Model A Roadster is great car, but certainly not a Full Classic. There are many other similar comparisons within and without the Classic Era, so I won't bore you with all that. <BR>The National Board thought long and hard about doing anything to alter the established dates. The outcome of the discussions was that the acceptance of "virtually identical" cars built prior to 1925 would be very similar to the acceptance, some years ago, of the post-war cars that were "Carry-over" models from 1942.<BR>The often noted idea that expanding the Full Classic guidelines will draw in more and younger members is, in my opinion, a fallacy. Case in point would be The Milestone Car Society. Most of the cars noted from outside the established Classic Era that might qualify are certainly no less expensive than many of those accepted from the 1925 to 1948 era, so cost is not a major consideration. Another example of what can be done within an established era is the Horsless Carriage Club where the cutoff date is 1916. This is another healty active National Club. Lastly, I would remind all that the Classic Car Club is currently enjoying its highest mebership level in its 50 year history. I don't have blinders on about the inportance of encouraging younger members, but that needs to be done through education and exposure, not dilution of this fine Club.<BR>I hope to see all of you at San Jose in January for the 50th Anniversay Annual Meeting!<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

To make a long story short, the National Board decided to put the pre 1925 matter on the ballot in an effort enact whatever the membership wishes. After all, the Club belongs to its members. While many people support the idea of expanding the dates of our club, many do not. The only way we will know what the members really want is to ask them.<P>The original idea of expanding our dates to include virtually identical cars built prior to those 1925 cars we already accept, was to simply to have our rules make better sense. To many, it seems illogical that a 1925 Model A Duesenberg is a Full Classic, while an identical 1924 model is not. We receive criticism for these quirks in our rules, which with the memberships blessing, many of us would like to fix. <P>There is no doubt that CCCA is a specialty club. I think that's fine, but I would like us to make sense, not just in our chosen years, but also in all the other things we do as well. For that reason. I am in favor of modifying the somewhat arbitrary dates. I am not in favor of lowering the standards of cars we accept, nor am I in favor of lowering the standards of our activities or publications. By making logical changes we can make things better, not worse.

[Guest]

I can't disagree with much that Jon and Chuck have said and I appreciate their feedback. However, I am convinced that a necessary (but not sufficient!) means to get new members into the club is a broadening of the Full Classics list.<P>I know that membership is at it's highest level in the history of the club. That is unfortunate, in a way, because it conceals the fact that the average age of members is very high and increasing. This does not bode well for the future.<P>You should consider the positive impact giving the 40-48 Cadillac 62 Full Classic status has had on this club. Some members still consider the 62 as not really representative of the "Classic Era". Yet, I believe this car is responsible for bringing many new participants into the club, and we see and enjoy them often at Grand Classics and Caravans.<P>I think the club's challenge for the future will be to broaden the Full Classics list while maintaining the exclusivity and remembrance of the Classic Era. Sitting on what we have or making minor changes in the interest of consistancy is one option that I do not think will ultimately give is a strong, vibrant CCCA.<P>Bill Sullivan<BR>Albuquerque, NM

[Guest]

For what it is worth here, for many, many years the AACA began its Classic classes with the 1930 model year and embraced all of the same makes and models, but not years, as CCCA [and some others CCCA didn't recognize]. So AACA faced the same retro acceptance dilemma problem. [Those last two words are redundent aren't they?]<P>Finally, a solution was reached whereby all vehicles and years recognized by CCCA were considered to be AACA "Classic" cars, but without unlisting those years and models outside of CCCA recognition which AACA had accepted as "Classic" for years.<P>What AACA did was essentially what you are facing now. I was serving on the AACA Board at the time of the decision and I can tell you first hand why it was done. Not to increase membership and not to include some special person's vehicle.<P>We did it because it was the right thing to do! It made no sense to adhere to an outdated policy that was basically wrong just because we had always done it that way.<P>I am not a CCCA member at this time, although I was for many years, but please permit me to offer an opinion. Going back as has been stated makes sense. Taking in a whole bunch of new years, makes and models doesn't. You have got to sell your product because it is good, not cheapen the product to broaden it's appeal and lose what made you what you are.<P>Please excuse a non member for butting in, but my experience in a similar instance may be worth something. But of course that is just my opinion. I could be wrong.<P>Howard Scotland<p>[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Guest]

Buicksplus: I am not a CCCA member, but you ssaid it very well. Both the HCCA and CCCA have major issues.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Despite reports to the contrary, both HCCA and CCCA are doing pretty well at the moment. They are both specialty clubs and clearly aren't for everybody. Is there room for improvement in either club? You bet! But the basic idea of specializing in a particular type of car is a good one. There is little point in being a club for all old cars. AACA already does an excellent job of that. It's hard to argue with their success. VMCCA should get some credit too. They specialize in touring. I'm a member of all these organizations and appreciate them for what they are individually. They are all about the same basic hobby, but just like puppies in a liter, they each have their own personalities. I think that's great.

[Guest]

At the same time CCCA is considering changes in the years of coverage to include "substantially identical" cars of years earlier than 1925, I suggest a slight expansion of the list of cars that are covered within the existing time frame.<P>A specific point, relevant to my ownership of a 1929 Hudson Town Sedan: CCCA identifies "L" model 1929 Hudsons as Full Classic cars, but does not include any "R" model cars of the same year. This makes little sense; aside from being longer (139 inches vs. 122 1/2 inches), the L model cars were not that different from some of the R chassis cars. They all shared the same engine and drivetrain, the same basic body parts, and in many cases even the same interior fittings. <P>The least-expensive L model (the 7-Passenger Phaeton with Hudson-built body) sold for $1,600. Several R-chassis cars -- the Biddle & Smart-built Victoria Sedan and Landau Sedan -- sold for $1,500. They are every bit as elegant and technologically advanced as the L series cars built by Biddle & Smart. Several other R-series cars, including the Briggs-body Town Sedan, featured the same "Rose" pattern interior and exterior fittings as the L-series cars built by Biddle & Smart. <P>I realize that you have to draw lines at some point, but I think dividing the 1929 Hudson series solely by length, rather than by specific models, misses the mark. The 1929 Hudson Town Sedan, Victoria Sedan, and Landau Sedan are every bit as praise-worthy as any of the L series 1929 Hudsons. They share the same technology, about the same price range, and (like the L series) were in limited production. In short, at least some of the 1929 R-series Hudsons qualify for recognition for exactly the same reason that all the L-series 1929 Hudsons are recognized: they were superior in technology and design, relatively expensive, and in limited production. <P>Although I am intimately familiar only with the 1929 Hudson line, I'd be willing to bet that there are other instances where a careful appraisal of the field would yield other worthwhile candidates for inclusion in the Full Classic field.<P>Lew Phelps<BR><A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~lewphelps/hudson_29" TARGET=_blank>An Introduction to the 1929 Hudson</A><p>[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Lew Phelps ]

[Guest]

Lew,<BR>You have raised some excellent points that illustrate how difficult the job is of the Classification Committee. There have been some very fine lines drawn in the past 50 years concerning which models are and which are not. Sometimes that line gets somewhat squiggly. And certainly not everypone, myself included, has agreed with all the determinations.<BR>I happen to agree with you that the '29 Hudsons are very fine automobiles and very handsome as well. I would also bow to your obvious knowledge of these cars. Looking at some of the past information relative to the Model L indicates that one reason for the acceptance of just the L was the fact that, reportedly, all these were fitted with coachbuilt bodies. The R used Biddle & Smart for two styles and other styles were general production. It is probably unfortunate that the Landau Sedan and Victoria were put on the shorter chassis. It is possible (no promises in predicting the actions of a committee) that the Biddle & Smart styles may be considered by individual application, although I do note that this was done some years ago without success. I would beinterested to see an R Model presented to the Classifictaion Committee, if only to increase our knowledge. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I'm sorry I do not have a better response, but maybe other members will.<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

Jon,<P>Thanks for your response. The points you made in fact support the concept that dividing by body length was not the "best" choice. <P>You wrote that, "one reason for the acceptance of just the L was the fact that, reportedly, all these were fitted with coachbuilt bodies." This is not correct. Hudson, not a coach builder, made two of the five L-series cars (the 7-passenger sedan and 7-Passenger Phaeton). <P>You also wrote that "The R used Biddle & Smart for two styles and other styles were general production." This also is not precisely correct. Biddle & Smart made two of the nine R-series models, and another custom coach builder, Briggs made three more of the nine R-series models. <P>Thus, it certainly doesn't seem consistent to admit all L-series cars to the club and none of the R-series, if the criteria are coach-builder bodies and limited production. Five of the nine R-series models meet those criteria, and only three of the five L-series.<P>Details of the various models are on my web site; the particular page is <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~lewphelps/hudson_29/what_model_frame.html" TARGET=_blank>http://home.earthlink.net/~lewphelps/hudson_29/what_model_frame.html</A> <P>My Town Sedan is not nearly ready for submission to the Committee, but when it is complete, except for the length of chassis, it will be no less a car than many of the Biddle & Smart L-series sedans. I would be pleased to submit it when it's done, if that would help to expand the knowledge of the Committee. I think there are some superbly restored Landau and Victoria Sedans out there right now. I'll raise this subject in the SuperSix 16-29 discussion list and see what happens. <P>Thanks for your thoughtful response.

[1937hd45]

PLEASE, do not add non classics to the CCCA. There is no need to admit production cars of the 1950's to a fine club such as this. I could understand admitting a 1924 Rolls or Duesenburg,but nothing new post WW II. I am not a CCCA member but I have owned several true Classics. There is no need to cheapen the quality of the CCCA.

[Guest]

Lew, It would be interesting to get your application. Your car does not need to be completed to apply. The Committee has considered restored, unrestored, partly restored and nice original cars at various times. If you so desire, an application can be sent to you at any time. Just drop an e-mail to National headquarters asking for an Individual Custom Body Application.<P>Responding to 1937hd45, as Chair of the Classification Committee and National Board Member, thank you for your comment on not admitting cars after the 1948 "Classic Era" date. Rest assured that there are no plans to extend admission into the 1950's. I might suggest reading a copy of Bev Kimes new book (available through this web site) "The Classic Era". This spells out very succinctly just what constitutes the Classic Era and why it ends in 1948. I can never stress too much my belief that the Classic Car Club is as much about an era as it is about the automobiles. Thanks,<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

Please keep a meaningful definition of "Classic". With ads for "classic '57 Chevy" and "classic Beetle" abounding, there is some need for a standard, although this will always come across to some people as snobbish elitism. Any cut-off will be imperfect, as the discussion on the Hudson shows (my personal whine is how can a '48 Cadillac 62 be a Classic, but not a '48 Packard Custom 8?). The great advantage CCCA has is that even with a limited base, that base includes vehicles that have been and likely will continue to be of collector interest. Marque clubs of orphan makes are trying to adress the problem of new members.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Please keep a meaningful definition of "Classic". <P>This is a major concern to CCCA Board Members. We are all acutely aware that the term "Classic" means different things to different people. The proposal to alter the strict enforcement of particular dates of manufacture is not intended to lessen the significance of the very special cars CCCA honors. It is an attempt to simply make our rules make a little more sense, and to reflect an accurate view of automotive history, rather than an arbitrary one.<P>We are happy to be a specialty club, just like many of the single marque organizations. We have a long history of being pretty good at that. Rest assured, there is no desire on the part of the current CCCA Board to be "all things to all people."

[Guest]

I'll add a couple of minor points to this part of the discussion. In relation to the use of the term and definition of "Classic", the CCCA, several years ago, through the efforts of Jeff Broderick and others, set forth the TRADEMARKED terms Full Classic™ and Modified Classic™. The definitions of each are spelled out in the Handbook and Members Roster each Club member receives. I will be glad to quote some of the relative parts of the Handbook, but only if I'm asked, as members already have it on the shelf. This forum is supposed to be informative and entertaining. Secondly, neither the 48 Packard Custom or the 48 Cadillac 62 are Full Classics™, but both models in 1947 are. The only 48 Cadillac that remains a Full Classic is the carry-over Model 75. The 62 carried the new postwar finned body style and the 48 Packard also wore new postwar styling. I do hope that has helped the peevishness.<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

I have enjoyed reading this thread, it at least indicates that the CCCA is hardly brain dead.<P>I find it ironic that the CCCA that was founded in 1951 (this is from CCCA's own web page) because of the elitism of the AACA, who considered these "Classics" too new and classified them as Tow Vehicles! Today, we have the CCCA doing the same thing.<P>I remain convinced that a general broadening of the Full Classics list will ultimately benefit the club. It will not "devalue" the great Classics on the list. The list today is already not fair, there is no way an early thirties Dietrich Packard is comparable to a 40's model 75 (or 62) Cadillac. Yet we need many cars to make our events interesting, colorful, and well attended. <P>For what it's worth, here are my suggestions: <P>1. Tell the classificiation committee to stop nitpicking "borderline" classics, like the aformentioned Hudson. The committee should accept these cars unless it is obviously clear that they are not acceptable. Now, the committee requires proposers to prove that they are acceptable, a difficult, discouraging process. <P>2. It is time to get simpler with the '25-48 era. How about (gasp), Cadillacs/LaSalle - All; Packard - All; Lincoln - All. Believe me, this will not produce a deluge of cars into the CCCA, there aren't that many of these cars left. But, it will stop excluding some truly great and interesting luxury, indeed, classic cars of the Classic Car Era.<P>3. Put the classification committee to work to consider expanding the Full Classics list up to, say, 1962 (40 years old). Believe me, your own members will come forward with many outstanding, beautiful, and historically interesting cars for them to review. This is where classification effort needs to go, not in nitpicking the 1925-48 era.<P>Doing this sort of thing (I'm sure others will have better suggestions than I) will give this club some of the spirit it had in 1951. And I am convinced it will not devalue to destroy our great history, in fact it will highlight and preserve it. I fear now that once our leadership passes on, there may not be much of a CCCA left. <P>Happy New Year!

[Mark Huston]

I have also been following this thread from the start and have not felt prompted to post a comment until now. Being a new member of the CCCA, but a long time car collector, in the past year I have been able to own my first CCCA approved car. It has taken many years of buying and selling '28-29 Studebakers to finally have a '29 Studebaker FE Brougham, a Full Classic. There are many great cars that could be looked at still for CCCA approval, but I can't think of one 1962 model, or any of the 50's. I think he CCCA is on the right track with the standards they have already set. There are to many cars out there that are called a "classic" when there is nothing classic about them othen than they managed to survive as long as they have to reach a point where someone thinks they are worth saving. There are those that think a Volkswagen Thing should be called a classic. The Full Classics as recognized by the CCCA will survive long after we, the current owners, are long gone. As an example, my 24 year old nephew is hot to own his own '29 Studebaker FE President, he is going to buy the one mother currently has. And he will be going with me to look at all those Full Classics this Saturday in San Jose at the national CCCA meet. I don't think many of the critics of the CCCA would think that a young 24 year old kid today would care about a big old 1929 Full Classic. I am sure there are more out there, just like him. I let my nephew drive me around in my '29 President, he has a blast and I enjoy seeing the thrill he gets out of successfully shifting gears. Yes, the hobby and the cars will live on long after we, the current owners, are long gone.

[Guest]

This has been an interesting discussion, one in which it has been possible to try to clear some misconceptions that I have heard for many years from many different folks. Mark Huston's comments are right on the mark! Thanks, and I hope to meet you and your Nephew at San Jose!<BR>To address a couple of the points brought up by Buicksplus:<BR>1: The Classification Committee actually does just what you suggest: accept fine cars other than those obviously not Classic. Where we all have difficulty is with that "obvious" part. That which I find obvious, you may find some fault. Therefore the job of the Classifictaion Committee is to determine just what is and is not "obvious"<BR>The application process is not a difficult or discouraging process. The instructions are printed on page 15 of your Handbook & Members Roster, and comprise six items. (5 for a Series application, as serial numbers are not pertinent to a series application.) We are talking about such things as photographs, specifications, original prices and production figures and special characteristics about the car such as custom bodies, unusual design or sepcial engineering features. I would suspect that any of us with a special appreciation for a particular make or model would find proseltyzing about it would be fairly simple.<BR>2. The theory that inclusion of all Packards, Cadillacs/Lasalles and Packard models would have no impact in the Club is one that has been around for many years. Consider this: Using the current Accepted list of Full Classics, between 1925 and 1948 there were about 1.3 million Full Classics built in the U.S. Through the year 1942 (I didn't take the extra time to look up postwar numbers, sorry) non-classic LaSalles (1934 through 1940, Packard 110, 115, 120, and Lincoln Zephyr sold approximately 655,000 cars! That is 50% of the total of the current Full Classic list. Draw your own conclusions.<BR>3. It helps putting this in perspective to consider that the Classic Car Club is thoroughly concerned with an era within Automotive History when cost of certain goods allied with a life style that went away at the end of 1941 in the U.S.<BR>4. If you have a chance to speak with a CCCA member from those early years, you will find that the original parameters for what we now consider Full Classics was much more restrictive than it is today. An early item of contention was that 1942 (the original published cut-off date) was much too new and the era, at best ended with the demise of the Packard 12 (1939), Lincoln 12 (1940) and Cadillac V-16 (1940).<BR>5. Mr Huston made the point of survival and caretakers of our Full Classic cars better than I.<BR>Thanks for listening.<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

Hey Buck how about changing the record its not ofen I look at this site but you are there. Apart from that trust you all in the U.S. ot A had a good festive season.<BR> GReetings from the land of OZ<BR> .

[Guest]

this latest thoughtful chapter of a long-running issue brings up 2 somewhat contradictory directions: The need to maintain some meaning to the term "Classic" and the need to maintain a vible membership. For my two cents' worth (and I am a Packard fan), the prewar 6 cylinder cars don't belong in the same category. Consider which vehicles were their competition at the time, and would you also include them? Perhaps the answer is to recognize a second category (the Milestone idea) with different criteria.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Just to liven things up a bit:<P>On Friday, January 11, 2002, at the CCCA Annual Meeting, our membership approved a By-Laws change that will allow the Club to accept pre-1925 cars that are "virtually identical" to those built in 1925. <P>The glacier is moving.<P>This change was approved by a very large margin of better that 5 to 1. The members have spoken.<P>The Classification Committee will be a very busy place in the next year or so.

[Guest]

Split:<P>Perhaps we can try "Full Classics" and "Half Classics".<P>Seriously, I see no need to put tiers into the system. We already have massive differences in value and importance of cars now on the Full Classics list. All car clubs have this situation, and everyone manages to deal with it without introducing a system of class labels. <P>I think the CCCA needs to broaden the list as a natural growth process to ensure its future survival. In the fifties, you probably could have started a sixteen cylinder car club, and had no problem finding enthusiasts and cars to populate it. But there are not enough 16 cyl cars around today to support a major, national organization -- even though we all agree that these are fabulous automobiles, well worth preserving.<P>So, while the CCCA was very selective in the fifties, it is not so appropriate today. My proposal to admit more luxury cars of the 25-48 period is intended to have an impact, that's the whole idea. What I did say is that it will not produce a deluge of cars into the CCCA. I don't question Jon's 600K car figure, but not that many of these cars survive today, and most owners will probably not join the CCCA anyway. But some just might, and they will probably be younger and will be able to carry on the memory and appreciation of the fabulous early Full Classics that will always be the honored and revered charter members of this club.<P>I fear that because CCCA has sat on this so long and made so many declarations in the past that they will NEVER change their list much, it may be too late. Also, there appears to be little feeling that CCCA needs to change, our membership is up and the club is in excellent shape. I hope though, that the club leadership can look ahead and see that we may be headed for trouble on the current course.<P>Bill S

[Guest]

Does that mean that for example a 1917 Locomobile is now a full classic? Will there be a complete listing of new full classics?

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

No, it does not mean that a 1917 Locomobile is a CCCA Full Classic, unless it is "virtually identical" to the 1925 model that is already approved. Since I think Locomobile was out of business by 1925, I believe you have your answer. <P>At first, pre-1925 cars will be considered on a "please apply" basis. Eventually, some cars will be aproved as a series and will not require individual application. There are obvious examples such as some Cadillac, Packard, Pierce-Arrow and Duesenberg models. I'm sure a list of these cars can eventually be expected. But for now, they must individually apply.<P>There are some cars that will be much harder to figure out. In any case, the CCCA Classification Committee will have to deal with all this. They have their work cut out for them.

[1937hd45]

Locomobile survived till 1929. What is "Virtually Identical"? Are you looking at chassis, or identical coachwork? If it is coachwork, how do custom bodies fit in?

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

I stand corrected about the demise of Locomobile. My apologies.<P>The phrase "Virtually Identical" means just what it says. If there were no difference from the 1925 model, either body or chassis, then the car would be accepted. In all likelihood, cars with very minor differences would also be accepted. In the case of custom coachwork, if a recognized coachbuilder did it during the appropriate era (no 1990 creations of something that never was) and the chassis is identical to the 1925 version, then it probably would be accepted regardless of the body. In any case, these are questions that the CCCA Classification Committee will have to decide, just like they do with cars built within the already accepted dates of 1925-48. The process will be the same, and in the case of custom coachwork, each car submitted will have to stand on its own merit.<P>It is reasonable to assume that if there were a number of pre-1925 "virtually identical" cars with very similar custom bodies, eventually they would all be admitted as a group. For now, each car must apply individually. The good news is, now you can do it.<p>[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

[Guest]

I was hoping this would begin more discussion and so it has. The official wording change in the "purpose of the Club" section of the by-laws is this: "...fine or unusual foreign or domestic motor cars built between and including the years 1925 and 1948, BUT INCLUDING CARS BUILT BEFORE 1925 THAT ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO 1925 FULL CLASSICS ..." I have added the capitalization where the new wording has been inserted. <BR> The base line for comparison will be currently accepted 1925 Full Classic cars. If you have a pre-1925 car that is virtually identical to a 1925 model in chassis and body componentry and design, such as a V-63 Cadillac or a 1st series Packard Eight, then I would suggest that these will be the "easy" ones. Until the Classification Committee learns more of the specifics of each car and model the cars will be examined on an individual application basis. As we learn more, there will likely be some series, maybe like Duesenbergs from 1922 or American Rolls-Royce from around the same time, that will be accepted as complete series. But, to begin, the Committee will proceed slowly and cautiously...as usual. Custom coachwork on an otherwise virtually identical Chassis is an area we are discussing, but there is a good liklihood of acceptance of such cars. You mentioned an interesting example with the Locomobile, and I don't think I have a good answer for you...yet. I hope we get some applications for early Locomobiles as the cars did remain pretty much unchanged from 1917 through the end in 1929. Probably the two most serious changes were four wheel brakes and Balloon tires. Even a Sportif tourer from the late 20's still looks almost like the 1917 example! There will undoubtedly be many criteria that will decide what is and what is not, as we have discussed the importance of not letting any one single feature decide the acceptance of a specific car.<BR>Let me stress that "laddering" isn't going to make it. In other words, stating that this 1919 car is almost like the 1920 model which is pretty much the same as the '21 which is nearly the same as a '22, etc, all the way to 1925, is not what the intent of "Virtually Identical" Each proposed car will be compared directly to its currently accepted 1925 counterpart. That does mean that Packard Twin Six, Pierce 66, Lafayette, or a single cylinder Cadillac still won't qualify.<BR>I would sincerely like to hear more about what some of the criteria might be in your opinion, based on the basic outlines already laid out.<BR>One more thing on the expansion of models during the Classic era or the acceptance of cars AFTER 1948. The Classic Car Club is about the very finest automobiles built during an era when real wealth was more conspicuous, and a workman's time was worth much less than it was after WWII. There have been some very fine cars built since that time. I have some in my garage. But they are not the same as those built for a "cost-be-damned" clientelle in that period we call the Classic Era. <BR>Obviously most of the 650,000 cars I mentioned are long gone, but the point is that those three different makes represented in that number accounted for HALF as many cars as built by THIRTY NINE manufacturers in the US in that 20 production year period 1925 through 1948, and those three did it in EIGHT YEARS. <BR>Is the Classic Car Club of America exclusive? When it comes to people, NO. When it come to the cars, absolutely yes. <BR>When some of my friends rail at me that their favorite car is not a Full Classic, I tease them with this question: Why is it that the owners of inexpensive mas produced cars all want them recognized as Full Classics and none of the V-16 Cadillac owners want their cars accepted by the Model A Ford Club? I'll let you figure the answer. I look forward to more discussion.<BR>Jon Lee

[Guest]

Should the CCCA "wake up" regarding its definition of what constitutes a "true classic"....?<P>Or should the people who do not understand why we got together originally as a club...do the "waking up".<P>On second thought..I have a better idea. Let's start a NEW club called the NON CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA. The people with the '57 Chevies...the Edsel station wagons, and so on, can continue to call their cars "classic" . ( Let's face it..we in the Classic Car Club Of America have made the term "classic" so desirable...that everyone who has some old piece of crap they want to "un-load"...insists it is a "classic".<P>SURE a "true classic" is by definition "arrogant". We got together in this club to celebrate something very unusual...the "BEST OF THE BEST" from a PARTICULAR ERA. For those of you who have had any serious education in the arts, you know the word "classic" refers to a particular design theory, meaning 'form follows funciton'. The "classic" school of thought in automotive design pretty much ended with the onset of stream-lining in the early 1940's. To call a "stream-lined" or "art deco" car a "classic" is to simply admit one's ignorance (and..no doubt admit ones jealousy and greed....!<P>The 1938 Fortune Magazine Advertisiement of my own particular car ( Packard Twelve Formal Sedan ) says it well.." there is no substitute for size, weight, and power when it comes to automotive satisfiacton, or, for that matter,...for reflecting the dignity of one's social position". <P>An article in a late 1960's CLASSIC CAR MAGAZINE, written by a fellow member with a 1951 Cadillac 60 Special, sums it up. He was arguing AGAINST including this car within the acceptability list of this particular club. As he correctly points out, our Club ERRED when it allowed this very fine car into our Club's list. Of COURSE the '41 Cadillac Fleetwood is a fine, high quality high performance car. But it lacks one essential element...its DESIGN was too modern. <P>The argument that we have to dillute our definition or shrink in size, and thus fail, is nonsence. We have FIVE times the membership we did in the 1960's. So WHAT. Let's face it. In THIS particular Club, we revel in the SUPERIOR, the "best of the best". Broadening our definitions dilutes our purpose, sacrificing it for raw memership numbers.<P>LEAVE OUR DEFINITION ALONE. We are NOT a Club for everyone !<P>Pete Hartmann

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Best thread to-date here in the CCCA forum. COOL!<p>[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

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As usual Peter H, I agree with you. I belong to the CCCA because I am interested in an automotive era (i.e. the Classic Car Era). If there are just a few people interested in this era or many, so be it. But I am not interested in expanding into other eras. If anything, I would prefer the CCCA become more exclusive, ergo more representative of the Classic Car Era and exclude all post WWII autos and some of the late pre WWII era cars. Also some of the marginal makes and models should be axed also. If membership drops so be it. There are plenty of clubs that cater to everything which eventually means nothing. I prefer quality over quantity.

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I have followed this discussion with great interest. As a newcomer to the "Classic Car" arena, having owned a 1929 Hudson for all of six months, I posted to this discussion topic earlier mostly because I was puzzled why the Club recognized certain models of the 1929 Hudson, but not others, and no Hudsons of other years, even though other late '20s Hudsons share all of the attributes of the '29 long-body (Series L) cars that have been formally recognized by the Club as "Full Classics." <P>If I can summarize the points of discussion as I have seen them here, the Club is confronted with three separate issues:<BR>1. Should the Club admit early-vintage cars that are "substantially identical" to cars that have already been approved? <BR>2. Should the Club significantly expand the range of Full Classics to include more recent years?<BR>3. Should the Club embrace additional cars within its established "Classic Era" timeframe? (This is a generalization of the issues I raised previously with respect to Series R (short wheel base) 1929 Hudsons.) <P>On the first point, I understand that the membership has spoken in favor of the expansion to earlier kin of accepted models.<P>On the second point. I am far too new to the old-car fraternity to speak coherently. <P>On the third point, I have a modest suggestion: Establish and publish firm criteria for qualification of a given model as a Full Classic. Then admit any Make/Model/Year vehicle that qualifies. Under the system I envision, the Classification Committee still would have to exercise its judgment, but it would do so with a defined, and hopefully rational, framework. <P>For the sake of discussion (only), here are a possible set of criteria:<BR>1. The car must have been manufactured between 19XX and 19YY. This is a prerequisite for consideration.<BR>2. The car must have been produced in limited quantities, with the particular model representing no more than X% of the total cars sold in that model year. This is also a prerequisite for consideration. (This percentage could be derived empirically by considering the "market share" of cars already approved, and possibly set at a slightly higher threshold than the highest figure among current Full Classics.)<BR>3. If a car meets criteria 1 and 2, it then will be accepted as a Full Classic if it achieves a rating of ___ points out of a possible 100 points on the following judging criteria:<BR> a. Technological advances: assign up to 25 points for the degree to which the specific model of the car embodies significant technological advances that were unique to the make or introduced by the manufacturer and copied by others. Examples: first V-8; first hydraulic brakes; first balanced crankshaft.<BR> b. Manufacturing quality: assign up to 25 points for the degree to which the car was manufactured with significantly greater than normal quality and attention to detail. Examples: unusually detailed interior trim; leather upholstery; superior quality paint finish; wire spoke wheels, doors that close like a bank vault.<BR> c. Design quality: A highly subjective issue, but people involved in this process can discern between a beautiful car and one that is ordinary. Assign up to 25 points for the stunning example, and fewer accordingly for the mundane.<BR> d. Value: How much did the car cost when originally sold? How much are good examples worth today? Assign up to 15 points for a car that cost a lot then, and whose value has held up well over time. 0 points for a car that was cheap then and undesirable now. <BR> e. Uniqueness: Assign up to 10 points for cars that embody aspects that no or few other marques or models adopted. Example (from a later era) the 1954 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gull Wing, which I consider one of the most beautiful cars ever made. Very few cars ever used the gull wing door, despite its significant advantages.<P>The points allotted to each category are arbitrary, and the points assigned by the Classification Committee to any particular make/model/year vehicle are also arbitrary. But there is an easy way to test whether a proposed rating system "works" well in the interest of the organization. Simply apply the proposed rating system to the existing roster of Full Classics. If it would qualify most, but not all, of the existing roster, it is probably "just right." If it allows for admission of some new make/model/year cars, you have a rational basis for expansion. If it lets in the 1928 equivalent of the Yugo, it clearly needs work. (Limited market share is not necessarily a virtue!) <P>Other factors might be considered in the scoring. One posting urges that size and power are relevant, a point with which I take no exception. When we bought our 1929 Hudson, we did so after considering Model A Ford and rejecting it as too small and too under-powered. In the late 20s, the Hudson was probably the fastest car made in the U.S., despite having only six cylinders.<P>The point here is not to say that this is the right scoring system, but rather to say that a defined scoring system would make the decisions of the Classification Committee more understandable and more rational. It would probably also produce some surprises. A few cars that are currently classified as Full Classics might come out badly under such a system. And other cars that have never "made the grade" might be included. <P>It would not end all the arguments about which cars should be deemed a Full Classic, but it would narrow the range of disagreement. It would probably also enlarge the roster of Full Classics in a way that even the more "conservative" participants in the debate could find acceptable once they saw the scoring.<P>Although the proposed system would almost certainly require submission of specific, indidual candidates for consideration, the idea would be that once a given make/model/year is approved individually, it is also approved as a class.<p>[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Lew Phelps ]

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For Lew Phelps... (regarding his 'confusion')<P>Lew...I fully agree with your remarks. Of COURSE it is confusing. And your confusion is an excellent example of why we should NEVER have broadened our definitions in the first place.<P>The HUDSON of the classic era was an excellent car..a great buy for the money (I disagree with your statement that it was the FASTEST, but raw superior speed and power, while PART of the definition of what is a "classic"...is not the WHOLE story...)<P>The problem is that HUDSON was NOT the "best of the best". It did NOT have the aristocratic "presence" of the SUPER LUXURY cars. I am so impressed with the all around quality and servicability of the Hudson of the classic era, if I were looking for a car of the upper-middle price range, I would probably buy a HUDSON !<P>But again.....THAT is not the price-range we within the context of this particular club, are interested in. This SHOULD be an exclusive club - it was formed for the purpose of preserving the BEST OF THE BEST.<P>Is this snobbery...and/or arrogance ? You bet! The BEST of the best is what it is all about in this Club. There is NO question that a Packard "120" or Hudson was a great buy of its era. There is ALSO no question that the big engined classics that cost FIVE TIMES as much, reeked with snob appeal and an aristocratic atmosphere...<P>To get a clearer idea where we "are coming from" I strongly recommend Robert J. Gottlieb's excellent book "CLASSIC CARS AND ANTIQUES". It was published around 1953, during the Club's formative years. I recall it has a LIBRARY OF CONGRESS number, so you should be able to find it. His "message" was as timely during our Club's formative years as it is today. <P>There are LOTS of very nice car clubs for people with very nice cars of every era. And then there is US ! As I noted above...we served our members well with half..even a QUARTER or LESS of our present membership. What on EARTH do we want to care about raw numbers of membership. We are NOT a club focused on "mass production". <P>Within the context of THIS Club...we are focused on the EXCLUSIVE...let's keep it that way !<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, Arizona

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Lew, your note is very well thought out, and the idea of a scale of criteria is VERY similar to what is now used as one of many Classification "tools" by the Committee. Over the past several years it was developed by recently retired Board member Hugh McKnight. We have found that it is of good use but not a total judge of Full Classic status. As you mentioned, there is so much subjectiveness in the definition of Full Classic. Because this thread has gooten so long and complex, I will see if a new one can be started by laying down various published definitions and procedures. This is fun!<BR>Jon Lee

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The "country club" aspects of the CCCA are not what attracted me to the club, I was more interested in the preservation and use of fine old, yes Classic, cars. And for the opportunity to meet others interested in similar cars. Yet, it appears that exclusivity does matter to some.<P>Peter H's attitude is very common but his views on the best of the best are his opinion. I cringe at the thought of narrowing the Full Classics list even more. Any action like this would certainly drive many contributing members away from this club.<P>Peter H. has a Packard 12 formal sedan that I am sure he is very proud of. We all know these are rare and valuable cars, with probably the finest engine to ever appear in a Packard. Now where would the CCCA be if the only Packards admitted were 12's? Are these not the "best of the best". Why waste our time with mere 8 cylinder Packards that were generally cheaper and less exclusive than the 12's.<P>I am not proposing the fill this club with cheap, plentiful cars. I just hope that the club can see that the exclusivity of the current list also has a negative side, it deters many from having any interest in the club or in the cars it seeks to preserve.

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For further insights into Mr. Hartmans rather limited view of automobiles check out the thread on 32 Packard further down. I think he has made it abundantly clear that if he doesn't own it then it is neither a Full Classic nor worth owning.

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Just re-read that post Terry, hope you found a good car to have some fun with. <BR>In the overall picture, I suppose our ramblings here are rather insignificant, but it is of detail that our days are made. <BR>It has been difficult to restrain response to some of what is said here. I sometimes fail. <BR>I guess the biggest hazard to the hobby is that what is said is seen and believed by many, not only now but as an archival record. <BR>Elsewhere on this board is an extensive and circuitous posting about the reasons for the demise of PMCC. Much of what is posted there is supposition, opinion and even invention, attempting to make simple a very complex subject. I'm trying to be polite. One feels the need to place a large red banner over parts of the posting proclaiming as much. <P>Hope all's well in your neck o' the woods.

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Bill<BR>As always, you are the voice of reason. I am afraid I get a little carried away with my responses to the holier than thou attitude of some people. I am currently looking at 2 cars. One is a 32 Packard Victoria and I am waiting on pictures of it. The other is a 32 Packard convertible coupe which is the car I originally posted about. The owner travels extensively so we have not been able to get together for me to look the car over in person. I have to say though, that some of the posts on the CCCA/Packard boards do tend to make one think twice about buying one of those type cars. I really have no desire to be around a group of arrogant jacka$$es. I know that not everyone in those clubs is like that, but the few that are certainly are vocal in their condemnations of everything lesser than what they own.

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Terry-<BR>I certainly was not trying to scold or correct you, just not very well trying to convey my frustration, too. Again, my concern is that the words presented as fact are archived. Similar in concept, I guess to the way a built-up-from-a-pile-of-parts car eventually becomes Enzo's personal ride. <P>As far as my limited experience goes, jackasses show up in all places. Someone previously said it was a 1% problem. That's about right, I think. <P>I think probably every group has the same problem and that the fancy-car crowd is not extraordinary. I admit it's not a strata I typically prowl, although Pebble Beach every few years is a lot of fun. <P>Personally, I just like old machinery, and Packard did it well. There are others around with like tastes.

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I'm with you; I love old cars. As you know I had been looking at a pre 15 car and the 32 Packard. We went to look at the pre 15 and my wife didn't like the looks of it as much as the Packard. Frankly I agreed with her, so we ruled it out. I don't care about whether the Packard is a small 8, big 8, or V-12. My two concerns are: is it reliable (I drive my cars) and is it good looking. I hope a 32 Packard meets the first criteria, and as far as I am concerned it is fabulous looking, so I am anxious to get hold of it and let the fun begin.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

It's funny, I'd be hard pressed to think of a 1932 model car that isn't desirable, Classic or not. It was a great year for style and design.<P>Remember to have fun with your car!