Trying to identify 1920s automobile with partial emblem

[CarlLaFong]

Compare this pic with your pic in post #15

 

What you have found is a 1926 Buick. End of story

Edited July 15, 2015 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I just wanted to add one thing that is kinda funny that I didn't want to mention this about the car because of my inexperience and I didn't want to sound any dumber than I currently do. This is for CarlLaFong.  The story goes  my Grandfather arrived here in NH in the early '20s very sharply dressed and driving a incredibly beautiful car that was called a Pierce Arrow.  The old folks all said it I promise. But I read that they are very rare and didn't want to sound like an idiot so I didn't say it. Whether or not it is one I certainly don't know but I am sure someone will let me know that LOL

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I guess I did not understand. I thought you wanted to know what type of car frame you had found. I have no idea if the frame that you found is the one that your grandfather drove in the early 20s or not. All of the evidence seems to indicate that it is not. It sounds like you are trying to confirm your pre-determined theory rather than trying to identify what you have found.

 

If you re-read this entire thread I think you will find several different points that have been identified by multiple people as a 26 or so Buick.. such as the rear springs, the shape of the fenders, etc. I don't think we are ever going to be able to make you happy if we don't just declare the car to match the year you want it to match. I hope that someone nearby will help you identify what you have. You will never find any trace of a serial number by just looking. You are going to have to do some serious wire brush work to reveal any trace of a number or tag or holes from where a tag was mounted.   

I appreciate every body's input for sure. I am very happy with what everyone has contributed. Whether or not I agree is not going to change what that frame is. If the consensus is a 1926 Buick that is fantastic. I appreciate all you have done! Thanks

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Compare this pic with your pic in post #15

 

What you have found is a 1926 Buick. End of story26buick.jpg

Thanks so much Carl! I think you knew that from the first glance! 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

OK, I reread your post #1. The emblem on the right is Packard but apparently you didn't find it, just showing it for comparison.

I appreciate your comment! Nice to know you!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Thanks to everyone that helped determine this is a 1926 Buick frame! It was nice to meet you all! Peace!

[MCHinson]

That photo was one of the ones in the link that I posted in Post # 70. It clearly shows your frame to be identical to a 1926 Buick frame.

 

Also, It is NOT a Pierce Arrow frame. A quick google search for Pierce Arrow photos will show you that the front fenders of your frame are not from a Pierce Arrow.  

[Guest joeyvaughan]

That photo was one of the ones in the link that I posted in Post # 70. It clearly shows your frame to be identical to a 1926 Buick frame.

 

Also, It is NOT a Pierce Arrow frame. A quick google search for Pierce Arrow photos will show you that the front fenders of your frame are not from a Pierce Arrow.  

I see that thanks!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I was comparing and maybe it's not an exact match? Is it close enough?

[Guest]

Hey Joey,

                  Good comparison photos. I see what you see. It is close but not exactly the same. While yours appears to be a Buick frame at this point in time, it is probably from a different model or year than the other one pictured.

    I see some of the posters seem to be angry that you're asking so many questions. Ignore them. If you need to ask 200 questions about this frame, until you're satisfied, ask away. The angry ones also have the simple right to not respond or read this thread if they're concerned about their blood pressure. In my 26 years as a top flight mechanic, spent mostly with the General but also between Ford and Chrysler, I had the opportunity to train many apprentices. They all had a million questions which only led me to believe in their dedication to the trade. I never tired of answering them, I never disparaged them for asking what others thought may be a stupid question.  You have to know, NONE of us were born with this knowledge. We ALL had to ask questions....lots of them to gain whatever level of knowledge we may (or may not) have.

   So, regarding your frame, I'll be satisfied when you're satisfied. Others have given good info here and should be happy to help along an admitted novice by sharing their wealth of info and convince you through knowledge and facts rather than disparaging remarks. After all, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.   

Greg

[Guest]

Joey,

           Try these images just for reference. Maybe around the gas tank area and the front fenders, or any other areas you can use to compare or contrast. This is a 1926 Buick Master 6 Model 40 2 door sedan. I realize the images you've posted appear to be of an open touring car body rather than a sedan but this may help. 

Greg

Edited July 15, 2015 by Guest (see edit history)

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Hey Joey,

                  Good comparison photos. I see what you see. It is close but not exactly the same. While yours appears to be a Buick frame at this point in time, it is probably from a different model or year than the other one pictured.

    I see some of the posters seem to be angry that you're asking so many questions. Ignore them. If you need to ask 200 questions about this frame, until you're satisfied, ask away. The angry ones also have the simple right to not respond or read this thread if they're concerned about their blood pressure. In my 26 years as a top flight mechanic, spent mostly with the General but also between Ford and Chrysler, I had the opportunity to train many apprentices. They all had a million questions which only led me to believe in their dedication to the trade. I never tired of answering them, I never disparaged them for asking what others thought may be a stupid question.  You have to know, NONE of us were born with this knowledge. We ALL had to ask questions....lots of them to gain whatever level of knowledge we may (or may not) have.

   So, regarding your frame, I'll be satisfied when you're satisfied. Others have given good info here and should be happy to help along an admitted novice by sharing their wealth of info and convince you through knowledge and facts rather than disparaging remarks. After all, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.   

Greg

Thanks Greg! That certainly is good advice! I just try to be nice and go until I am satisfied or tossed out. I try to always be respectful especially when I am not in my field. I think everyone can add something or notice something from a different perspective that adds to a story. I have a half a million views on YT for playing guitar there the last few years. I have been told I sucked a thousand times in a thousand different ways. I always loved the motto on the "Power Hitter" from my college days...it said "Onward through the fog"! Thanks pal! Will do!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Joey,

           Try these images just for reference. Maybe around the gas tank area and the front fenders, or any other areas you can use to compare or contrast. This is a 1926 Buick Master 6 Model 40 2 door sedan. I realize the images you've posted appear to be of an open touring car body rather than a sedan but this may help. 

Greg

Thanks for posting those Greg! If you get a chance to see my post #117 you might see part of the problem with I am seeing. I have not seen a Buick match the curve and the bulge the same as mine. The upper part of the bumper looks exact from what I can see but the rest does not.  I have looked at so many Buick's I am gonna dream about them tonight! This one you showed on the right is the closest I have seen, the inside fender bulge I think is closer to mine but still more pronounced, this could just be from a distorted camera angle but the cutaway is shaped differently. Buick's around then from what I can see all have that similar design with more bulge and slope on the inside bumper than what I have. The rear fenders of mine are not attached to the vehicle and might be possibly distorting my view of them but I think you might see after I post more pics of them tomorrow that they are a poor match with the Buick.  Even said the closeness of the Buick still beats anything I have seen. Goodnight!

[Guest]

Joey,

            Check this image. The piece marked with the black X inside the red circle. It looks quite similar in design to the piece listed on page 4 of this posting in your photo numbered 0097. Except the one in your photo looks to have quite a bit more angle to it suggesting a more radical rake to the rear fender than I would expect on an open touring car. I believe they would look similar to the sedan image I posted. Perhaps this angled piece is more suitable to a coupe or roadster. Of course these are only guesses made from photos available. However, it does bring up the question: How certain can you be that the body rear section you have shown is originally from that chassis? I know you've said it is the only car at this location now but a lot of things could have been there in the last 80 plus years. I wish I was close enough to inspect this myself. But here is what I would do; I'd get a buddy to help me lift that rear body section on to the frame and see if it fits properly. Check to see if the bolt holes line up. Part of the confusion here could be if the rear body section is open touring car and the frame is coupe/roadster.

Greg

Edited July 15, 2015 by Guest (see edit history)

[Guest]

Check these images. The frame on the left is simply listed as 1928 Buick. I don't know what model or body it had originally but look at the similarities. The gas tank cover and rivets, the curve in the upper rear frame rail. I cannot see the  forward  crossmembers clearly in your image as the frame is sitting on the ground so perhaps you can get a better view of them to make a match.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

The rear section of a 28 Buick next to mine.  I understand this 28 might not be the same year (prob close I am assuming) or model. That being know are these close enough in character to both come from Buick?

[Guest joeyvaughan]

This is the same pic as Greg posted 2 posts ago just bigger. Is mine on the right close enough to the one on the left to be called a Buick without doubt? I don't have the knowledge to answer that. Thanks Greg this is the best frame comparison pic so far I think!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Check these images. The frame on the left is simply listed as 1928 Buick. I don't know what model or body it had originally but look at the similarities. The gas tank cover and rivets, the curve in the upper rear frame rail. I cannot see the  forward  crossmembers clearly in your image as the frame is sitting on the ground so perhaps you can get a better view of them to make a match.

Hi Greg! Good pic! I made it bigger and re-posted it. I called yours a 26 Buick but I will amend that. You can get a clearer pic of the cross members etc. with my pic. Again I don't have the knowledge to compare. Some parts look close others not at all. I understand finding a perfect match may be impossible. But it seems to me with the knowledge in this group this pic (or mine) should be able to settle once and for all (even with no tags found) whether mine is 100% Buick. Do you agree? 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

This is the same pic as Greg posted 2 posts ago just bigger. Is mine on the right close enough to the one on the left to be called a Buick without doubt? I don't have the knowledge to answer that. Thanks Greg this is the best frame comparison pic so far I think!

The car on the left is labeled a 26 Buick it is in fact a 28 Buick.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

These look pretty darn close. McHinson and CarlLafong posted these earlier. It is from a 1926 Buick. 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

These look pretty darn close. McHinson and CarlLafong posted these earlier. It is from a 1926 Buick. 

With a couple member confirmations even doubtful me will agree these are a match.  

[sambarn]

Joey, The rear frame section  of your car seems different due to what appears to be an accident - The comparison pics you show have a bend in the frame at the rear wheel hump this would have been from a fairly significant wreck to have bent the frame like that. You are using what is obviously damage to compare and say it doesn't match. It does. It is a 26 Buick frame. It was left there after being stripped for parts - like if a mechanic wanted a new engine for a car, pulled them out of a wrecked junker and threw the rest away in the trash pile for old parts in the yard. there are multiple cars' parts out  there -lending to the trash pile theory.  Also  -why you found parts in the stream - parts were often tossed in the same place you dumped your oil. your grandfather was using the stream as a trashpit. The buick must have been to heavy to throw in..You have said he was a mechanic - I think we can say he worked on a '26 Buick, a model T, something with roll up windows, something from 1931 and an old stove or heater. and maybe something else in his long career. I appreciate your desire to call a spade a rare jade shovel from the most exotic hardware store - but it's a spade. Just a spade.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I am not claiming my car frame is not a Buick. This is just for curiosity sake. To base the determination of a car brand (antique) solely by the looks of its frame could be a mistake. I am sure every one knows this here. This is from a book called "The Horseless Age"...

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I am not claiming my car frame is not a Buick. This is just for curiosity sake. To base the determination of a car brand (antique) solely by the looks of its frame could be a mistake. I am sure every one knows this here. This is from a book called "The Horseless Age"...

In other words early cars (not sure of what years) could have the same exact frame and yet be from different manufacturers completely. 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Joey, The rear frame section  of your car seems different due to what appears to be an accident - The comparison pics you show have a bend in the frame at the rear wheel hump this would have been from a fairly significant wreck to have bent the frame like that. You are using what is obviously damage to compare and say it doesn't match. It does. It is a 26 Buick frame. It was left there after being stripped for parts - like if a mechanic wanted a new engine for a car, pulled them out of a wrecked junker and threw the rest away in the trash pile for old parts in the yard. there are multiple cars' parts out  there -lending to the trash pile theory.  Also  -why you found parts in the stream - parts were often tossed in the same place you dumped your oil. your grandfather was using the stream as a trashpit. The buick must have been to heavy to throw in..You have said he was a mechanic - I think we can say he worked on a '26 Buick, a model T, something with roll up windows, something from 1931 and an old stove or heater. and maybe something else in his long career. I appreciate your desire to call a spade a rare jade shovel from the most exotic hardware store - but it's a spade. Just a spade.

Thanks for the input! I posted pics just before this of closeups on the frame of mine and a 26 Buick that to me look identical. And I stated this. Take a look please. 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Thanks for the input! I posted pics just before this of closeups on the frame of mine and a 26 Buick that to me look identical. And I stated this. Take a look please. 

Post #140. Not even I can can doubt the match. Thanks for all your help! You guys were all right on!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

If frames were shared during this era it might not be wise to say a cars bare frame is a certain brand. I have even seen the same fender set up and many other parts share by different car makers. Look at this 1926 Oakland....This front end is a closer match than any Buick I have seen. Is it possible this car also has a Buick frame? To ponder....

[CarlLaFong]

Frames were built to the manufacturers specs. They were not picked off of the shelf like a can of peas. A Buick frame was used by Buick only. Chevrolets used Chevy frames only. If a new independent manufacturer strolled into the frame plant and said "I need a couple hundred of those Hupmobile frames for a car I want to build, they would have been denied. There are, and were, patents and design rights. "You want frames? Bring drawings and we'll talk"

[Restorer32]

Virtually no cars of the period shared frames.

[Restorer32]

And just as trivia, many car frames were built by the A.O. Smith company, known now mostly for those blue silos and manure storage bins you see on farms all across America.

[sambarn]

A) The very name Horseless Carriage points to the "veteran" era of cars - say pre 1905 - that description of manufacture is fairly correct as is the note of difficulty (not impossibility) to recognize particular frames by manufacture. This is several generations of vehicles prior to the frame you show. It has absolutely no bearing on automobile manufacture after the veteran era and is from a time before rapid internet searches and clubs full of enthusiasts when the tools we use today didn't exist.

 

2) Identifying a vehicle by it's frame alone is actually easy enough to do. If you'll note that hours after putting decent pics up you had the identification you were seeking. They really are all that different and these guys here can absolutely Make model and production year of a vehicle by frame alone - especially an easy one like a Buick

 

Thirdly) I understand how you can feel that the Oakland is just like the Buick. The cars of the late twenties are, from a styling perspective, quite similar to the untrained eye and from your identification of "convertible top opening mechanism" mounted laterally below and in front of the passenger cabin (brakes) I can say that you have some studyin' to do. Look at number of hood vents, detailed shape of radiator surrounds and - very importantly as it is one of the most noticeable of all 20s car identifiers - fender shape. The stampings are usually quite unique and I urge you to do some research to note the many and subtle design touches that differentiate these cars. I also urge you to invest in the best money spent on learning about cars (for someone like yourself that obviously has a passion) - Join The AACA. The fabulous magazine alone is worth that.

 

D) If the Anderson is a passion for you and you are trying to study up on it, I know a guy who has one in his private collection and very likely knows more about these cars than most folks. I would be glad to connect y'all when you're out of sources for research about the Anderson.

[1912Staver]

Along with the A.O. Smith theme, I have notices a number of small parts that are used on several  different make of cars frame. The overall frame will be quite different, but why re-invent the wheel for small detail parts, brackets etc.  They had a front frame horn casting {malable iron} that is found on a number of their circa 1910- 1912 frames for example. Also running board hangers from the same era, they have one that shows up on a few frames from about the same period.  Makes sense for a high volume operation to have a few "stock" designs for parts that will be on nearly every frame regardless of make and where the part will perform am identical purpose.

 If a person were to examine an example of all of A.O. Smith's products I am sure some other instances would show up.

Greg in Canada

[Woodfiddler]

Joey - I'm curious to the previously mentioned patents that your Grandfather held. Were they automotive related patents, and if so for what? Thanks for the frame identification caper. What do you plan on doing with it, anything? Dig it out and maybe find more info about it. There may be more little parts underneath the half buried frame. I assume you have a metal detector and have combed the area finding the parts that you've photographed. How did you get into that hobby and what else automotive related have you found that may interest us?

 

Thanks

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Virtually no cars of the period shared frames.

Certainly every car manufacturer didn't make their own frames? It seems with the immense steel process involved that would not be possible but for very few? Could there have been just a few makers but you ordered frames by your own specs to fit your own needs? Interesting! Thanks!

[sambarn]

No. the frames were very specific for each different car. Even when they were made by the same subcontractor, which is the exception rather than the rule, each frame is it's own with it's own design specs and measurements. These were not little fly by night companies that subcontracted often. They made cars. Engines, bodies and frames. As was stated A.O.Smith made frames as a subcontractor but each marque of car was a very specific frame. It's a Buick.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Joey - I'm curious to the previously mentioned patents that your Grandfather held. Were they automotive related patents, and if so for what? Thanks for the frame identification caper. What do you plan on doing with it, anything? Dig it out and maybe find more info about it. There may be more little parts underneath the half buried frame. I assume you have a metal detector and have combed the area finding the parts that you've photographed. How did you get into that hobby and what else automotive related have you found that may interest us?

 

Thanks

Thanks so much for your interest and the questions! The patent I know best was a machine to remove a wrist pin from a cars engine cylinder. I will dig some pics of it and post them. I believe it went by the E.O.Minor Wrist Pin Remover. The add I have for it says it reduced the time needed to remove them. We are talking way back. You guys might be more familiar what it did. I am sure technology outdated it quickly. My grandfathers partner got G.M. 's attention and don't quote me till I dig the paperwork up but G.M. stole the patent and legal proceedings went on for quite some time. There is a stack of legal paperwork. My grandfather Earl O. Minor made very little if anything on his patent. Again I will post a short accurate story when I look at the paperwork. And I will also show a few of his other inventions if anyone is interested. I am not sure about the Buick frame?? Can anyone give me suggestions other than the scrap pile? Can It be restored?? Thanks Man!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Thanks so much for your interest and the questions! The patent I know best was a machine to remove a wrist pin from a cars engine cylinder. I will dig some pics of it and post them. I believe it went by the E.O.Minor Wrist Pin Remover. The add I have for it says it reduced the time needed to remove them. We are talking way back. You guys might be more familiar what it did. I am sure technology outdated it quickly. My grandfathers partner got G.M. 's attention and don't quote me till I dig the paperwork up but G.M. stole the patent and legal proceedings went on for quite some time. There is a stack of legal paperwork. My grandfather Earl O. Minor made very little if anything on his patent. Again I will post a short accurate story when I look at the paperwork. And I will also show a few of his other inventions if anyone is interested. I am not sure about the Buick frame?? Can anyone give me suggestions other than the scrap pile? Can It be restored?? Thanks Man!

I have all kinds of old corroded parts from the area. Most I think are from the car I displayed. If anyone is interested I could lie them out and photograph them and you guys can have fun guessing??

[Guest joeyvaughan]

No. the frames were very specific for each different car. Even when they were made by the same subcontractor, which is the exception rather than the rule, each frame is it's own with it's own design specs and measurements. These were not little fly by night companies that subcontracted often. They made cars. Engines, bodies and frames. As was stated A.O.Smith made frames as a subcontractor but each marque of car was a very specific frame. It's a Buick.

I see. I never thought of the whole process till I had my own car frame! I see what you mean. You ordered what you wanted and hopefully you got that. Were most car companies no more that assemblers of parts then?

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Frames were built to the manufacturers specs. They were not picked off of the shelf like a can of peas. A Buick frame was used by Buick only. Chevrolets used Chevy frames only. If a new independent manufacturer strolled into the frame plant and said "I need a couple hundred of those Hupmobile frames for a car I want to build, they would have been denied. There are, and were, patents and design rights. "You want frames? Bring drawings and we'll talk"

Yes that all makes perfect sense. Made to order. I guess if you had the best design you might be ahead of the game. But there are so many aspects it is really quite a feat from start to finish to get a car on the road! Do you have any ideas what I can do with my old Buick?? Is it restore able?

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Along with the A.O. Smith theme, I have notices a number of small parts that are used on several  different make of cars frame. The overall frame will be quite different, but why re-invent the wheel for small detail parts, brackets etc.  They had a front frame horn casting {malable iron} that is found on a number of their circa 1910- 1912 frames for example. Also running board hangers from the same era, they have one that shows up on a few frames from about the same period.  Makes sense for a high volume operation to have a few "stock" designs for parts that will be on nearly every frame regardless of make and where the part will perform am identical purpose.

 If a person were to examine an example of all of A.O. Smith's products I am sure some other instances would show up.

Greg in Canada

Yes that is very interesting! I am learning quickly! Appreciate the tutoring!