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UNDER THE HEADING "SO WHAT"


Barney Eaton

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Todays paper says that Tesla set a new production record for the second quarter of 2015 by building 11,507 model S sedans.

 

For comparison Buick built 21,751 Reattas in 4 model years (41 months of production) or

 

Tesla built 53% of the total Reatta production in 3 months.

 

Like the Reatta Teslas are not seen in every part of the country and some areas are saturated.  

 

 

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My only comment is that without all the subsidies Mr. Musk has craftily carved out to make his product fiscally viable to retail buyers (and only the very affluent ones at that) he'd not have built all those cars. Then again, that is the way of the world now. Consider that as you celebrate your putative independence this weekend; we all have had a portion of our productivity expropriated for the benefit of the few. I call that theft. What do you call it? Because those funds were taken from taxes that we are forced to pay under threat of having [the rest of] our freedom revoked, that makes it indentured servitude at best.

Independence day? You must be joking. Now back to work to pay your fair share suckers.

KDirk

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My only comment is that without all the subsidies Mr. Musk has craftily carved out to make his product fiscally viable to retail buyers (and only the very affluent ones at that) he'd not have built all those cars. Then again, that is the way of the world now. Consider that as you celebrate your putative independence this weekend; we all have had a portion of our productivity expropriated for the benefit of the few. I call that theft. What do you call it? Because those funds were taken from taxes that we are forced to pay under threat of having [the rest of] our freedom revoked, that makes it indentured servitude at best.

Independence day? You must be joking. Now back to work to pay your fair share suckers.

KDirk

 

 

FWIW...The Los Angeles Times wrote an unfavorable article on Musk a couple weeks ago (it can be found on-line). Much of the focus was on the subsidies he has received.  In return, Musk has been shooting darts back at the Time for poor research on the article.

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Well you already know this and still won't like it......... a list of corporations that get the biggest subsidies.........

 

I suspect we are still subsidizing tobacco farmers

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/17/the-united-states-of-subsidies-the-biggest-corporate-winners-in-each-state/

 

This was not intended to start a political post.........it was about cars

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Here is an example of what is going on. The numbers below were taken from Barney's linked page.
 

Tennessee - Volkswagen - $818,800,000

 

Volkswagen has a huge parts warehouse in the county where I live. They pay no taxes and the land in the industrial park was practically given to them. Our state and local officials begged Volkswagen to come here and take that deal. Tax breaks and other incentives is a way for small governments to buy jobs for their citizens. You might could say taxpayers are paying to have good jobs move into their communities. Good paying jobs are up for the highest bidder.

 

EDIT: Added last sentence.

Edited by Ronnie (see edit history)
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I agree wholeheartedly with KDirk and would not change a comma. His thoughts should be carved in granite and posted on every government building. Of course, the libs would remove it when they are removing the ten commandments and throw them in the same garbage truck. I know we are not to discuss politics on automotive forums but the libs are not constrained by such limitations. They are like the "Terminator" and will not stop, ever, until they have their way and people like us are silenced for good. If like minded people do not begin to talk about what is happening to our beloved country, we will lose it and it will be just another example of a grand experiment that failed.

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I just had a great day:  took the Reatta up into the mountains;  a hot sunny beautiful day, the newly repaired A/C working great, car ran like a charm - super!  Come back, sit down to browse the forum and I run into this pile of political crap.  This has no place here, guys, we're talking Reattas.

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In Teslas defense:

 

1.) Tesla was the recipient of a small (by federal gov't standards) loan a few years ago.  Once the Model S started volume production, Tesla paid it back early - with additional prepayment interest.

 

2.) Purchasers of the Model S are eligible for a income tax credit.  The same ITC is available for purchasers of the Volt, ELR, Spark EV, Ford Energi twins, Ford Fusion EV, Fiat 500e, and various other 'plug ins' from other manufacturers.  Also the upcoming hydrogen cars that Toyota and Honda are planning to produce.  (The hydrogen cars are a waste of time, but that is another rant.)  ITCs and tax deductions are also available for a zillion other things like interest on home loans, business expenses, education expenses, medical expenses, charitable contributions, etc.  Note that these reduce the taxes the individual owes to the government.  It is not a subsidy - where the government pays you.  If you don't have an income high enough to use the credit, tough.  (E.g., Get a lease.)

 

3.) Tesla gets some ZEV credits that they have been selling to other automakers.  Lets the others build more Hemi Challengers/Chargers, high zoot Camaros and Corvettes, SUVs, etc.

 

The Model S is an incredible car, designed and built by some extremely talented teams here in Silicon Valley, and should be applauded by liberals and conservatives alike.  Cars with ICE technology will start dying a slow death soon.  EVs are here to stay this time.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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I just had a great day:  took the Reatta up into the mountains;  a hot sunny beautiful day, the newly repaired A/C working great, car ran like a charm - super!  Come back, sit down to browse the forum and I run into this pile of political crap.  This has no place here, guys, we're talking Reattas.

 

Sorry about that.  BTW, did you know that after the Reatta was cancelled, GM used the Reatta Craft Centre to build the EV-1?  And interestingly, it was the aftermath of GMs decision to cancel the EV-1 and then _idiotically_ crush them that directly led the founders of Tesla to start their own company.

 

So believe it or not there is a tie in to the Reatta.

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As a matter of decorum, I have removed my lengthy, off-topic rant in this thread as:

1. This is not the venue for such discussion, and

2. Upon further consideration, I decided it was simply unneccessary.

In place of the wall of text I've now removed I leave the following succinct remark, take it as you may:

It is what it is - until it isn't.

KDirk

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id love to have a tesla with enough solar panels to keep it charged.my 400 watt system probably wouldn't be enough.

 

Just wanted to quickly answer this one.  Google around and find out what the "solar insolation value" is for where you live.  In my case the yearly average is a little over 6.  So if your 400 watt panel system was sitting in my yard and reasonably aimed, it would deliver an average of about 400x6=2400 watt-hours/day.  That is enough to power a typical EV for 8-10 miles a day.

 

I have a modest 3kw solar system on my roof.  And indeed right now it is delivering 18-19 kwh/day.  (Best ever was 19.7.)  In the winter time, this drops to like 8 kwh/day.  Note that due to my roof design, and placement of the modules, some of my modules don't face south.  I also have a tree shading problem late in the afternoon.  So in that sense, my system is suboptimal compared to theoretical.  But it is plenty to 'run my meter backwards' during the day - avoiding Californias high energy tiers.  I am solidly in Tier 1 now, whereas I used to be mid-high Tier 3 and even sometimes in Tier 4.

 

It is interesting a number of people estimate the amount of electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gas from crude would power a typical EV about 20 miles.

Edited by wws944 (see edit history)
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As all good things must end, alas, KDirk's narrative is forever gone. I wish it were still here as wiser words were never uttered on a mere automotive forum.

If you look back, the roaring twenties were called the roaring twenties for good reason, then the ceiling caved in and a whole generation was traumatized. We heard about the ensuing misery for an entire generation. I guess i do watch Fox News, if I were not so busy I would love to watch it more than I do. As far as Reatta's go, you can bet you will never see me driving mine to a Bernie Sanders rally or tooling my way to a voting booth to vote for Mr. Clinton's wife. If ignorance was bliss we live in the most blissful society ever conceived.

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cargirl: I am as much a Fox watching, car loving, Reagan conservative as anyone.  But I also love high tech.  The fact is that electronic and battery technology has improved enough over the past 20 years that, tax policies aside, EVs are now an unstoppable disruptive technology.  The economics are turning in their favor.  This is one of those 0.4% cases where Rush is wrong.

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Hey, I love tech--lots!! I own a Reatta after all :) My problem is with the gov't picking winners & losers that's all. Hey, the horses have left the barn on that one so in the great scheme of things, perhaps the moneys better spent on tech than other things. I saw a Tesla the other day and LOVED it!! Oh, Rush and .04%.....make that more like 25%. Rush is right quite a bit but when he gets it wrong, he really gets it wrong. Most right wing talkers just preach to the chorus. It stifles real thought. I am a libertarian and basically just want to be left alone.

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All good (and bad) things do end eventually. The manner in which they end is of greater importance due to the fact that unmitigated collapse, well, just sucks. That was the overarching point of my now withdrawn posts. And that is the real issue almost no one will or can properly address; I don't think I can do it terms that are palatable to enough people to be accepted. I've come to understand that (though acceptance of it is another matter). Momentum of such scale is nearly impossible to change when the opportunity to do so without incurring maximum suffering still exists. I firmly belive the window of opportunity for change without maximum suffering has passed.

I do still periodically make an appeal to logic, but the message is usually lost amongst emotional arguments and preconceived notions that too many people will not let go of. I've dispensed with a lot of things I used to believe, upon finding they were chimeras and distractions expressly created to confuse and misdirect. Many seem disinclined to undertake that process and get caught arguing endless inanities.

There is no further point in me expounding on these things to those who understand them, as they already know. As well, there is no point in telling those who fervently believe otherwise as their minds will not be changed until maximum suffering has hit them square on. Some still will not dispense with their own self-harmful ideals even at that point, as is their prerogative. And, the vast majority just don't want to know as it is too unpleasant to contemplate. It is human nature to procrastinate especially on things that are unpleasant to deal with. I get that, but still struggle with how so many can willfully postpone the conseqences that will only be worse the longer they are forestalled. This is the curse of the logical and perceptive I guess.

So, there it is. I'd rather conserve my energy and efforts for what I'm certain is coming (and if I'm wrong, that would be great), than to spend it now on what I've decided is a fools errand. In the meantime I will emulate the unconcerned by conversing on things of far less importance, like my cars. At least I can enjoy that.

KDirk

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Okay, I own an electric car and have solar.  And 4 Reattas among many other GM cars.

 

Government assistance is everywhere.  I really like receiving my Social Security each month.  But I paid into it.  The government also helped on my electric car and solar installation.

 

Getting back to Reattas, should the Government have bailed out GM?????  

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Just wanted to quickly answer this one.  Google around and find out what the "solar insolation value" is for where you live.  In my case the yearly average is a little over 6.  So if your 400 watt panel system was sitting in my yard and reasonably aimed, it would deliver about 400x6=2400 watt/hours/day.  That is enough to power a typical EV for 8-10 miles a day.

 

I have a modest 3kw solar system on my roof.  And indeed right now it is delivering 18-19 kwh/day.  (Best ever was 19.7.)  In the winter time, this drops to like 8 kwh/day.  Note that due to my roof design, and placement of the modules, some of my modules don't face south.  I also have a tree shading problem late in the afternoon.  So in that sense, my system is suboptimal compared to theoretical.  But it is plenty to 'run my meter backwards' during the day - avoiding Californias high energy tiers.  I am solidly in Tier 1 now, whereas I used to be mid-high Tier 3 and even sometimes in Tier 4.

 

It is interesting a number of people estimate the amount of electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gas from crude would power a typical EV about 20 miles.

well i guess i'll have to combine my trips.lol.btw my converter is good for 40 amps so i could add panels.

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I really want not to beat this drum any further, but here is a teachable momement that perfectly illustrates what I've alluded to. So, to each of the points/questions Redreattaruss has raised - and please don't take this personally - it is just that your post encapsulates the prevailing attitude I am pointing out, here we go:

You have electrc cars and solar. Fine, if they work for your needs that is perfectly acceptable. I don't dispute the usefulness of EV's or Solar energy.

The same can be said for your ownership of other vehicles, Reattas included. I own what works for me. In the matter at hand though, these assertions are a non-sequitur.

Government assistance is everywhere. Boom. Here is the rationalization on which the rot is justified. Translation: everyone else is doing it, so will I. This is a favored argument of children. Can we ever get beyond that? No, because that entails willingly foregoing "free stuff" that other are enjoying.

You really like receiving your social security. Well, of course. You paid into it? I'm not disputing that in the least. The real question is where is the money you paid in? Hint: it's all gone and it ain't coming back. So is all the money I ever paid in, expropriated for other things those in power wanted to spend it on. What to do about it? If the answer is to make other people pay for what was stolen from you and I, that's the wrong answer. And no, I don't have any answer that you will like. That is why it will not be fixed, rather it will be destroyed by recalcitrant inaction in the name of fairness that will never come.

The government helped on the cost of your investment in solar? How nice. You're welcome for the portion of the cost that was defrayed by the rest of us having a portion of what we paid in taxes given to you for a project that should have been entirely on your own dime. If you contend that it was too costly to justify paying full price for, then the project simply should not have been done. if you consider it malinvestment to spend that much of your own money on something, then it is malinvestment and theft to spend other's money to buy it.

Should GM have received a government bailout? Of course not. Existing bankruptcy and contract law would have seen to the proper resolution of that mess. There would have been collateral damage; there was anyway. But (and here is the big caveat) the "right" players would not have benefitted in that arrangement so an alternative arrangement was made that simply cast aside the existing (and still in force at the time and even now) law to the benefit of other parties who would, legally, have been nicked in the bankruptcy reorganization had the law been followed rather than an exception being made. To add insult to injury, the rightful creditors were told to piss off by the judiciary when it was pointed out the law was broken. This is how the rule of law is lost, as respect for the process of it's enforcement is destroyed when people realize that the "rules" are not consistent and can be changed on the fly. Down that road are many bad things.

I don't think this can be made any more simple, and since everyone seems to love having big difficult concepts distilled down to a bumper sticker, here is my magical parable grade soundbite: In seeking to protect one's favored ox from getting gored, everyone's ox will be gored in turn. Or, if you prefer, when everybody demands to win, everybody ultimately loses.

I'm done since I am again falling into the trap of repeating myself to the unrecepetive. There is always an excuse or justification depsite the facts being put forth. Enjoy getting yours, while it lasts, because it won't. That is the bottom line.

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Russ: My next car will likely plug-in as well.  In fact, when we installed the solar setup, I had a new NEMA 14-50 outlet installed for it.  I will definitely add another kw or two when I do buy the car.

 

BTW, for full disclosure, I have a number of friends that own Teslas, a neighbor who works there, and am a TSLA shareholder.  I've also met and talked with Marc Tarpenning - who was one of the founders.  (Musk came later.)

 

Kevin: Yes, I fully agree GM should have gone through normal Ch 11.  They would have come out of it a lot stronger than they are now.  And a number of former GM bond holders would be a lot more willing to reinvest in them...

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Thank you. Nice to find someone who "gets it" instead of firing off false justifications for why something was done wrong.

And, for the record, I have nothing bad to say about Tesla's cars on pure technical merit. They look great, and they work as evidenced by the fact we see them on the road - while not frequently - enough to prove they are the real deal. They don't suit my particular needs or budget, but that is a matter of practicality, not a slight against them. Nor do I have a personal beef with Mr. Musk. I respect his ability to think big and bring things like the model S to fruition. I just have a distaste for the development costs being partly defrayed with public funds. Outside of that, I have no issue with him or his company.

Oh, and did anyone happen to notice some months back when existing dealerships of the mainline car companies were seeking to make things quite difficult for Tesla (via judicial and legislative interference) to sell and distribute cars in some states because their business model is unlike the existing system of factory dealerships and they (via their army of lawyers and lobbyists) sought to halt Tesla sales in various venues? Seems Mr. Musk almost became a victim of the very system he masterfully manipulated to aid in his initial success. Talk about a reversal of fortune. In fact, that whole episode seems to have been stuffed down the memory hole, as despite my tendency to read and research enoromous amounts of current events (not "news" typically defined as the goings on of the celebrity culture and the nine swine, that is) I've not seen anything to indicate a resolution of that matter. Strange since I seem to recall there being litigation involved, and surely those cases have been proceeding toward some end. Guess I will need to go and have a look to ascertain if there are any substantive updates on that.

I guess the take away from that is the system that is big enough to make you is also big enough to break you, and depsite it's brute force clumsiness can sometimes turn on a dime and make yesterday's champ today's chump. Funny how that works, eh?

KDirk

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Well, I see more Teslas on the road here than Buicks.  But admittedly I live in Tesla "ground zero" land.  FWIW, they just installed a new Supercharging site near you in St Charles.  So there will be a lot more of them "passing through".

 

The sales showroom, as opposed to dealership, situation in a few states (I think Missouri is one of them?) is entertaining and slowly being rectified.  Anyone anywhere can purchase a car via the web site.  However some folks would like to touch and test drive a 70k+ large car before pressing the "buy it now" button.  :)  But Tesla was exactly right that had they chosen the dealership model, their cars would be sitting on the lots unsold while sales droids - looking for an easy sell - would steer customers to lower priced cars.  Same thing happened to the EV-1, and for that matter, the Reatta.

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Guest ensign83

Cool,

 

Checked in to look at stuff re my current (but for sale) GM ride, and I found...

 

Ayn Rand :huh:

 

I love talking politics as I work in DC, but usually find this stuff on the motorcycle blogs I frequent...

 

I'm retired military also and appreciate my blessings, but I reckon I am a drag on free enterprise. Even though it is mandated by the Constitution, my work at the Census surely must be a lib plot...

 

I am sure when Trump is elected POTUS, he will get everybody cracking! Jeb says we should work harder anyway...

 

And gosh, capitalism sure helped the finance industry lead the way to 2008, just as in the 20s. It be what it be like, indeed!

 

Sorry for all the snark, y'all do a wonderful job on this board. B)

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Kevin you are correct this will not last forever. Gravity usually takes over.

 

We are all guilty to a degree, buying cheap stuff at Walmart while we have our jobs but buying that cheap item from China puts our neighbors out of work. Guess what? We are next and if we are, you guys collecting will be not collecting for long.

 

Capitalisim is not at fault it capitalism without any morals or restaint. America has become GREEDY, so greedy the rich get government subsidies to get richer. I have no problem with rich as long as you make it on your own and not with a subsidy. Maybe finding  some trust in God is the answer not trust in politicians.

 

America is real sick when we burden the poor working class so connected people get rich. Look at government funded NFL stadiums and electric cars.

Edited by gkhashem (see edit history)
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Cool,

 

Checked in to look at stuff re my current (but for sale) GM ride, and I found...

 

Ayn Rand :huh:

...

 

Well, John Galt did drive a car with an electric motor.  And Rand was as much an opponent of crony capitalism as she was against the socialism/communism that her family experienced and escaped from.

 

I've also read Lord of the Rings a few times.  ;-)

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Guest EDBSO

You must be a Republican as Democrats know that when you but a Tesla S there is FREE LIFETIME CHARGING from their Superchargers.

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/findus/supercharger/us pick one!

 

Just imaging coast to coast and back for zero dollars, would that be infinite miles per gallon, wrap your mind around that.

 

Now a "S" looks very much more economical.

 

Frankly if GM gave free gas for life I still wouldn't buy one.

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You must be a Republican as Democrats know that when you but a Tesla S there is FREE LIFETIME CHARGING from their Superchargers.

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/findus/supercharger/us pick one!

 

Just imaging coast to coast and back for zero dollars, would that be infinite miles per gallon, wrap your mind around that.

 

Now a "S" looks very much more economical...

 

Easily: The above is the official web site.  Here is another one that shows a current snapshot of what is in place vs under construction vs permits issued: http://supercharge.info  As of this posting, there are 202 sites in the U.S. and 465 world wide.  All free.  Some even have solar canopies to mitigate draw from the grid and associated demand charges.  (I've seen the one at Tejon Ranch on I-5 by the Grapevine.)  While there are some obvious gaps, realize there were zero sites three years ago.  In another year very few gaps will remain.

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