KAD36 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Well..... it might just about be that time. 105,000 miles on the clock, 40,000 miles and 30 years since heads were off and had a valve job done to fix 2 burned valves (and all "good" parts were reused). Looks like we've developed a miss. Noticed it about a few weeks ago, fairly steady puff out the exhaust at idle, not the intermittent kind that happens when the carb is out of tune. Other then that the engine is quiet and runs smooth. No tapping, pulled the valve covers off, everythings moving. Didn't pull the valley cover to check for bent pushrods, but near as I can tell the valves aren't sticking and theres no gap at the rocker arm to valve stem point. Compression test showed 7 cylinders between 115 and 120 (down from 125 ish back in 2006) and one cylinder at 40 psi, and it only jumped to 30psi on the first stroke where others all jumped to 60-75 psi. Test run warm. Oil in the cylinder raised it about 3 psi. Was hoping I could get away with pulling a head and doing a valve, or maybe pulling both and doing another valve job and a re-ring to keep costs down and considering the level of use of the car. So, then built a leak down tester and ran that test with each cylinder at TDC compression stroke, put 50 psi into each cylinder (tank source) then measured resulting pressure flowing air into the cylinder. 2 cylinders did very well - 49 psi/50psi or about 2% loss - air loss was through breather and barely noticable2 cylinders did pretty good - 45-46 psi/50psi or about 10% loss - air loss was through breather (rings or taper)2 cylinders did pretty lousy - 40 - 38 psi/50 psi or about 19%-24% loss - air was through breather (rings or taper)2 cylinders just blew it - 25 - 30psi/50 psi or 40% to 50% loss - air was through the exhaust pipe, one valve on each bank (exhaust valve).No loss through carburetor, so intake valves all good. I didn't stroke the piston and take leakdown at mid or bottom piston travel points. Figured top was worse. Now I know where the blow by vapor was coming from. The car still runs pretty darn good so I'm enjoying it locally (heck in college it carried us hundreds of miles with 2 cracked heads and 3 burned valves because it was all I had) and at the end of this summer would like to get moving on fixing it. A highly regarded rebuilder on the East Coast informed me of a 1 year wait which unfortunately is too long for me. Allentowns coming up ya know and can't miss that one (since I missed JD and the Empire Express this year). The engine plan doesn't assume anything too extravegant - maybe a cam, maybe roller rockers or later nailhead 1.6 rockers, not sure what works. Maybe a 57 distributor with a window on it just to set the points easier. Definitely put the high compression head gaskets back on it - the mechanic who did the work while I was in school used low compression gaskets, the valve guide situation on these heads was new to him, and he re-used most everything to keep costs down. I'll pull the motor and drive it up to about a 300 mile radius to get it to a shop. Don't want to ship it to the West Coast. My experience is limited to 1 full rebuild of an Olds engine in my youth and I had a mentor then hovering over me. The rebuild ran great but I never knew the longevity. This car will be doing cross country runs in the future and I need to trust it. If it were more of a local car I'd go for it myself. Would like anyones experience with shops who have successfully worked on a nailhead on the East Coast and know what one is - either do the whole rebuild turn key or at least do the rotating assembly and get it right. Please share your experience? Also, any advice you might have learned along the way on how to advise a shop of parts to use (like which are the best pistons to get and from who - often a hot topic) and what are some smart questions to ask. thanks in advance Edited July 2, 2015 by KAD36 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 You don't say exactly where you are, but here in Toronto, Ontario, there is a builder experienced in many vintage stock and modified engines. Likely this is too far away for you, but if you want more info, let me know, and I'll get you his name and number.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I am nudging 55 years of working on cars and experiencing my own and others workmanship. If you wrote post #1 all by yourself, you are light years ahead of most service providers I have encountered. My suggestion would be to farm out the machine work and follow the shop manual closely as you disassemble and reassemble the engine yourself. If you have to buy a couple of tools you may never use again it's no big deal. You will be assured an attentive and painstaking job. Upstate New York is an interesting concept. For people in Brooklyn it could be all the way up to Westchester. Then, again, if my wife and I take a ride along the Lake for lunch tomorrow, Toronto will look like this from the hill near RT 18: Bernie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 What Bernie said! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Good one Bernie - upstate is where the first cow start showing up in the field as you drive by. I'm just below Syracuse NY in Binghamton - realized the new forum doesn't add location any more. Anyplace within a few hours, either in NY, PA, CT, MA would work for me. I could deal with farming out, just not sure what all to ask about or check for. Plus in studying others posts there seems to be a general recommendation to find a machine shop that has worked on a nailhead before. Some Texas inspiration tells me I'm going to get shamed into fixing this myself with a lot of late night phone calls..... Anyone ever hear of this place? http://www.jandm-machine.com/ Edited July 2, 2015 by KAD36 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Good one Bernie - upstate is where the first cow start showing up in the field as you drive by. I'm just below Syracuse NY in Binghamton - realized the new forum doesn't add location any more. Anyplace within a few hours, either in NY, PA, CT, MA would work for me. I could deal with farming out, just not sure what all to ask about or check for. Plus in studying others posts there seems to be a general recommendation to find a machine shop that has worked on a nailhead before. Some Texas inspiration tells me I'm going to get shamed into fixing this myself with a lot of late night phone calls..... Anyone ever hear of this place? http://www.jandm-machine.com/ You will not be sorry Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Falabella Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Bernie,The Bronx is upstate from Brooklyn! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retirednow Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 People in Manhattan think anything north of Central Park is upstate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Let me jump in here with we feel is a a good reference for you and your nailhead. I have no affiliations but have used all the info below to good use. Archie Goodwin wrote this 10 part series, chuck filled with do's and don'ts regarding the entire rebuild and machining process including best parts sources. Yeah you have to buy the series but in my opinion it is well worth it : http://webrodder.com/article/buick-nailhead-hauler-part-6-crank-installation-timing-set Regarding parts, Russ Martin in Grass Valley, CA can provide most all your needed parts. Long time nailhead mechanic and parts man. Just Google him. Egge Machine Shop in Southern CA can as well many parts and they specialize in piston replacements as they mill their own from OEM specs. Also, I personally would not let anyone snow job me into drilling into the heads for a hardened seat installation. These are not fords or a chevy engine. Besides not being necessary due to the very quantity and quality of the high nickel content materials Buick and Cadillac used on these engines during this time, the water jacket is dangerously close to the exhaust ports. But for folks who must have them, those in the know therefore use a Special and detailed freezing technique when installing the hardened seats to avoided ruining the head as mentioned. If one was to stop and actually examine the material in the port seats on the OEM heads, they would find the material as hard as the replacement seats they are attempting to install. Many shops who are not well versed on railheads, attempt to just mill and drill the seats and that is where the fun begins and problems arise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted sweet Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 they are local clubs in Binghamton. im sure they, club members, know who is good in the local area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Am asking around locally, and still looking for someone with experience that reflects proper knowledge of the engine. Not yet there. Buick-Man - great info on valve seats and parts - noted and thank you! Carmen Fasos name came up near Towanda for cylinder head work and seems well regarded. Will try calling. Egge seems to have acquired complaints against their pistons from folks with recent purchases with wieght spread (fixable), compression and overall quality. Their older stuff seems to earn better reviews. Just an observation from searching last night on this forum and the V8 Buick. Edited July 3, 2015 by KAD36 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBulldogMiller55Buick Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Tom Telesco Classic & Muscle Automotive465 Glenbrook RoadStamford, CT 06906 - Phone: (203) 324-6045 The best time to get Tom on the phone is a weekday morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Good one Bernie - upstate is where the first cow start showing up in the field as you drive by. I'm just below Syracuse NY in Binghamton - realized the new forum doesn't add location any more. Anyplace within a few hours, either in NY, PA, CT, MA would work for me. I could deal with farming out, just not sure what all to ask about or check for. Plus in studying others posts there seems to be a general recommendation to find a machine shop that has worked on a nailhead before. Some Texas inspiration tells me I'm going to get shamed into fixing this myself with a lot of late night phone calls..... Anyone ever hear of this place? http://www.jandm-machine.com/ I have, and I've spoken to them. I've only heard good things about them and when I spoke to one of the owners he impressed me with his knowledge. I'm well into rebuilding a 1910 engine that I'd suggest is far more challenging than most anything from the 50s and I plan to bring them the jugs to bore. I'm also going to use them to weld and grind the crank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBulldogMiller55Buick Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Make sure he knows that a nailhead should be built to specs. Not loose, and tightened up after running, like a Chevy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Spent about 30 min on the phone with Tom - learned a few tricks. He'll have some parts for sure but he is pretty backed up with customers so that won't work within my timeline right now. Figure I have about 2 months to do some research, identify and visit a good machine shop that will work with me. I've spent the weekend reading my 1957 Motors manual and the Buick shop manual on the engine internals. Hey Mud - if you're out there thanks for posting all your videos of your rebuild. They are absolutely invaluable. Edited July 5, 2015 by KAD36 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBulldogMiller55Buick Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 You've got to figure that the better shops will be backed up with work.Best, to go ahead and get in line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Am I reading right that your two bad cylinders were losing pressure through the exhaust valves? Why not (for now) just pull the heads and have your local shop check out the valves? That may buy some time (maybe a lot of time) before you have to do anything else to it. Not to mention, it's cheaper than doing a whole engine, and if you have to do the bottom end in the future, the heads will already be done. One less thing, you know? Just my two cents, which may be as worthless as it sounds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Am I reading right that your two bad cylinders were losing pressure through the exhaust valves? Why not (for now) just pull the heads and have your local shop check out the valves? That may buy some time (maybe a lot of time) before you have to do anything else to it. Not to mention, it's cheaper than doing a whole engine, and if you have to do the bottom end in the future, the heads will already be done. One less thing, you know? Just my two cents, which may be as worthless as it sounds. I would go for this. Be careful not to do too good a job. Hand lapping the leaking valve to seat it in a worn engine is much better than having a three angle valve grind done. It will duplicate the wear in the other 14 valves and allow that slight leakage, like the rest, to keep blowby from pushing past the rings. If you tighten two cylinders up too much you will probably see blue puffs from the draft tube; not very ladylike when parking at a show.Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Rebuild or repair? Won't know that until you tear it down step by step. Remove the cylinder heads. Remove a valve and check the guides for wear. Look at the cylinders for scores, excessive ridge.I am not against repair as necessary, but it is my understanding that Ken is misguided and thinks he want to charge around the country in that car ( whoever heard of that? ) Willie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Charge around the country? Insane. Used head, hand lapped valves installed in 2002. The previous owner broke a valve cover bolt while changing the gasket (dangerous boy). Then drilled into the water jacket and made a green fountain. Not deterred, he broke a tap off in the hole. Then let it sit for two years figuring out how to get the tap out. Charging around just fine now.Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I'm with you Bernie...I'll take worn in factory stock over a rebuild any day. Unfortunately, that's getting harder and harder to find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudbone Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Spent about 30 min on the phone with Tom - learned a few tricks. He'll have some parts for sure but he is pretty backed up with customers so that won't work within my timeline right now. Figure I have about 2 months to do some research, identify and visit a good machine shop that will work with me. I've spent the weekend reading my 1957 Motors manual and the Buick shop manual on the engine internals. "Hey Mud - if you're out there thanks for posting all your videos of your rebuild. They are absolutely invaluable" Hey just remember, my engine is not road proven. I only ran it on a test stand for about 45 minutes. “It sure did sound good though” Mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thanks for the advice! WIll leave the engine in the car and pull the heads off end of summer. Can take a look at the cylinders then before going further. If they don't look too bad will leave well enough be. Engine is quiet and makes good oil pressure even hot at low idle. Maybe we can take a vote on fiddling with the cam and timing chain when its apart. In the meantime, this misguided car that charged all over the North Country, sometimes pushing snow with the front bumper and passing out snowplows on the NYS Thruway (ok so maybe that wasn't so smart but we were in college and trying to get to a Springsteen concert ) will keep puffing around town. Then its gonna charge across country with the rest of the fleet! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 A good set of snow tires and a Buick can take you up RT 81 between the Lake and the Tug Hill Plateau when the silent snow is just dropping in front of you. It pushes out ahead of the car and the "Whoosh", the accumulation flies over the top and starts again. Now, that's a driving experience.Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Mud - Just re-watched the open exhaust episode of Mudbones Garage. Yeah it does sound REALLY good. With the attention to detail you put into your work, it will move that Century just as well. Hey - it would be a pretty short putt to turn that engine stand into a go cart and fit that road test in. Think of the power to weight ratio.....you built it right and plenty strong Edited July 10, 2015 by KAD36 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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