Dynaflash8 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Needing to know, asap before I buy one of these cars. Does anyone have experience with road gas mileage on a circa 1964 Buick Wildcat with 401 cid (445) engine? Also, can it be tuned/timed to run on regular gas? Help! Before I buy one of these beauties!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'll take a stab at this drove a 65 Electra in high school. Gas mileage will be 10- 14 MPG. The best tune up, and tires inflated to max pressures, may result in one extra MPG. That engine in stock form, will ping like crazy on regular grade gas unless you are only idling it. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I used to own a 1960 Electra with the 401 engine. That routinely returned 14mpg (UK gallons and miles), but would reduce to 10mpg if driven hard. It was huge fun though. So buy it while you can !! Kind regardsAdam.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 I think it can be re-tuned to run on regular. I had a 69 Electra a couple of years ago with a 455 and it ran okay on regular because it was "de-tuned"...the timing was set back a couple of degrees. I understand that Ethanol (all I can get here) is rated at 95 octane. Thanks for your comments JohnD and Adam. Too late now, because I bought it today. It is the exact opposite of what I was looking for: a 4-door, mid-size Buick with a 3-speed and a 350 engine. Duh! Well, I guess I'm kind of like the guy who marries the gorgeous blond who is and he knew would be a terrible wife, and passes up the plain gal next door who he also knew would make a wonderful wife, but wasn't exciting. I guess I'll deserve what I get. Go look at in on google at www.lakeside1020.net. Earl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I married a tall blonde and when she is sitting in my 401 Electra the car gets about 17 MPG on a long trip and, maybe, 15 average driving, but I know how to get 10. She only lets me put Mobil regular in the car and I am not allowed to run around price shopping at gas stations whom fill their tanks from a mystery tanker at midnight. Being in the position of owning more licensed and drivable cars than a sane person, I have to work to put 1,000 on each per year. If I was able to achieve the 1,000 with a car that got 10 miles a gallon that would be about $350 a year for gas, average a buck a day. Good thoughts, I think I'll take my blonde wife out to a restaurant in the Packard tonight. It will probably cost me 10% of the monthly payment on a Prius, maybe a little less.Bernie P.S. G'ever hear about the two Buick owners who got a hold of a penny and invented copper wire? Edited June 26, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Great Bernie! I can't get any kind of regular here, only Ethanol, thanks to former Gov. Christ. When we pull up to get our e10 Ethanol, we scream Oh Christ!There is one station 8 miles from my house that sell under the minimum whatever that is, and only sells non-ethanol. Now he has regular for $5 a gallon, but if you go very far with a big old wonderful Buick, you can't get back to him for a refill.I'll have to try your brand of gasohol, maybe it'll give me better mileage than I get on the 71 Rivvie. Anyway, I'd be really happy with 16 on the road with the new 401 Wildcat. Edited June 26, 2015 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I tried the 20% ethanol in my flex fuel Silverado. My mileage was consistently lower, but it wasn't consistent how low. My 5.3 2WD that always gets 20 MPG on Mobil regular ranged from 18 down to 15 on the corn licker depending on how bad it ran. It threw out a CES light, too, the only time in 10 years.My truck has a sensing chamber that reads the specific gravity of the fuel and adjust to what it thinks the corn level is. It seems to be a flawed technology based on engineering assumptions. We had an ethanol plant about 20 miles west of us where diesel trucks delivered corn that was harvested with diesel combines and ran it through a steam distiller. The steam came from a natural gas fired boiler and had a 24/7 plume of atmospheric vented excess steam for the few years it ran. They shut it down. Now when I drive by I just shake my head and think about the capital amortization. I used to laugh about the operating losses when it ran. Oh, the processed ethanol left the plant in diesel trucks too. The flavors will continue to change and the hobby will adjust. For now, I have figured the best thing I can do it keep that corn licker percentage in my tank as short a time as possible. Oh, the LT1 Chevy is sitting all black and shiny in the drive. Out to dinner in that instead of the Packard. That will get a few punches to the throttle before we get back. Blonde riders like that excessive consumption, but you gotta get 'em young!Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 I've never heard of e20. We don't have any e15 here even, thank goodness. The e10 here and in Virginia is bad enough for golly sakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhclark Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) My '65 with 401 gets about 8-10 mpg with me driving it, around town, but I have a heavy foot.I think I got 12 once on the highway.In high school, my '65 with 401 got about 7. Edited June 27, 2015 by bhclark (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 If my new car gets less than 10 around local and no better than 12 on the road, it won't be around my place very long, beautiful or not. My 71 Riviera gets 10-12 around town and 10-14 on the road and the other one I had got 16 one time on a trip from Maryland to Florida and back. I had a 65 Electra convertible but I don't remember how it did. I drove it from Baltimore to the first BCA show in Flint (1971) and back. It had other problems like leaking, whistling automatic vent windows and a flashing automatic headlight dimmer that would dim for street lights. That car wasn't one of my favorites in the past 70-some Buicks I've owned. I hope this car is better. How many of you know that Buick entered some full size cars in a national economy run that was held in 1964? There are a lot of pictures on eBay, but I have no idea how they did on the run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Gas mileage...if you gotta ask, you can't afford it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Just filled my 56 and recorded 11.9 MPG. Can't remember where I drove it for the 100 miles I put on it, but it's safe to say it's not in any city traffic. Here, I can buy non ethanol fuel at quite a few places, and there seems to be even more coming back to non ethanol all the time. The cars all start easier and seem to run slightly better at an idle. But when I took the Electra to Springfield, I could not determine any difference between ethanol or non ethanol fuels. I only got 15.2 on that 455 but we did weigh it down with the equivalent of 1& 1/2 adults in the trunk. I would love to see some pics of your Wildcat. Especially before you decide to sell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsue Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I drove my '65 Electra in HS and college and got 10 MPG consistently. The gas gauge never worked so I filled up the tank every 250 miles. (Those were the days of having a 25 gallon tank.) I never ran out of gas and only once in 6 years did I fill up the tank and find it only took 4 or 5 gallons. That sure was a shock when I figured it would be close to empty.I worked in NY for a few summers and I think I was getting 14+ on route 80. I had a super heavy duty spring on the gas pedal and a vacuum gauge to watch. Now that it's mostly restored, with a new (not rebuilt) engine I'm still getting about 10 - 12 mpg. I ditched the heavy duty spring and the vacuum gauge sits on the shelf. Now it's all about the fun of driving it.Next step - get the AC working so that the gas mileage can be lower. Bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Just saw the online pics. SUPER car!!! Without A/C you should get a little better mileage. Odd that it has a factory am/fm and a power bench seat, with few other associated goodies like tilt wheel or power windows. Still, it looks amazing!!! Nice find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I I had a 65 Electra convertible but I don't remember how it did. There's a time in life when your priorities were different. Figure out what overshadowed the price of gas then, regain it now, and you'll be in good shape. Interesting comment about keeping the 25 gallon tank full during High School. Gas was 30 cents a gallon when I was in school and I never started filling the tank until it cost over a dollar a gallon. Now I keep seven tanks full and don't really know the exact cost of gas. Must be MY priorities are elsewhere.Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 Just saw the online pics. SUPER car!!! Without A/C you should get a little better mileage. Odd that it has a factory am/fm and a power bench seat, with few other associated goodies like tilt wheel or power windows. Still, it looks amazing!!! Nice find.Old Tank: I can afford the gas, but I have some limits on what I will accept, which I've said above. JohnD1956 thanks for the comments. It has a pwr antenna, and we're happy about the bench seat over buckets. We tend to lose stuff between the seats on our modern Charger. We're old you know. It will have A/C but it will be Vintage Air with a custom installation in Tampa and they use that economical little Japanese compressor. I wanted factory air, but this car knocked me over. Thanks for looking at the pics ( www.lakeside1020.net) Go to inventory, then Buick. They sell mostly sports cars it looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 After I decided to spend this much money, I should have called Old Tank about one of his 55 Century's, but I forgot about them. Oh well, I'm old.When we were young, we had a 1958 Special with factory air, and then a second one without it. I never saw any difference in the gas mileage. We didn't have much money so I bought $1 worth of gas at a time. On Sunday we'd go to see the family, hers or mine. Her's was somewhere around 250 miles round trip and the old '58 would use $6 in gas. Gulftane was 17.9-19.9 cents per gallon. If I used it for a week, the engine would start running on and I'd have to buy some Amoco white gas to straighten it out. I wonder whatever happened to Amoco White Gas....no lead. Why didn't they go to that instead of coming up with the no-lead gas? Of course now in Florida you are virtually compelled to use Ethanol. When we go to Virgnia for the summer it's a little better because it is boating country and a few more gas stations are around who will sell non-ethanol regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airy Cat Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I do not run regular 87 octane gas in anything even my lawn mower. I run premium 91 octane in everything. When I had my 1965 Wildcat I ran a 50/50 mixture of 100+ LL Av gas and 91 octane premium and it ran great. Good gas mileage and lots of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Thanks Airy Cat, but I can't get that here. I think I can get Premium Ethanol. But, I've never run anything but 87 in any car I've ever owned. I put a little premium in a 69 Electra convertible I had and it didn't seem to make any difference, and the same is true with a 54 Packard with a 324 straight 8. I'll be happy with 15 mpg on the road. That's as good as the 2007 Suburban will do. I drive it very seldom of course. Pulling the trailer it gets 7.5 mpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) The thing that governs the power liberated from your gasoline is the calorific value of the fuel, not the octane rating. High octane fuels have greater resistance to pre-ignition or "knock", this allows for higher compression ratios, or more ignition advance, or more boost pressure. These are the things that give the extra power, not the octane on it`s own. As for the added ethanol (and we currently have about 5% in the UK), it dilutes the mineral fuel to make it go further, using a product with a lower carbon footprint. However, ethanol burns with a cooler flame. This means lower combustion chamber temperatures and reduced mean effective pressure (= less power). So you will use more of it to do the same job. It does however, have a lower volatility and more resistence to "knock", so may be seen as an octane enhancer. Hence high output turbo engines (like Indycars) have been used with Methanol fuel, to allow for high boost pressure to be run. Of course, ethanol has a few side effects that we are not so keen on, like a tendency to attack older rubberised hoses and seals and a tendency to be hydroscopic (like brake fluid) meaning that it holds water, which in turn can cause corrosion problems. C`est la vie. Adam.. Edited August 12, 2015 by Alfa (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Ethanol can also colonize in the tank and, in some instances, develop a collective intelligence commonly referred to a a monsanto. When maintained at half a tank they can become agitated and aggressive. If your garage is attached to your house always check that the gas cap is tight before you go to bed.Being the victim of a nocturnal hygroscopic incident wouldn't be my idea of dry humor.Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Thanks Airy Cat, but I can't get that here. I think I can get Premium Ethanol. But, I've never run anything but 87 in any car I've ever owned. I put a little premium in a 69 Electra convertible I had and it didn't seem to make any difference, and the same is true with a 54 Packard with a 324 straight 8. I'll be happy with 15 mpg on the road. That's as good as the 2007 Suburban will do. I drive it very seldom of course. Pulling the trailer it gets 7.5 mpgA stock 69 Electra will not be happy on any currently available consumer pump grade fuel. It will definitely be happier with a higher octane fuel as the mainstay of it's diet. It is, what it is, which IMHO means, it's a beast!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Thank you Alfa, that was very scientific and studious; actually more complicated than my 76 year old, high school educated brain can comprehend. That said, it sounds to me like if Ethanol is used, and old car with a 10:1 compression ratio might be able to get by on regular Ethanol. Do I get that straight?One other thing is does, based on on-hand experience is cause a pre-war Buick straight to vapor lock at 55 mph going down the highway and in many other places. I've had to install electric fuel pumps on mine with a hidden toggle switch for the unfortunate occasions. I also installed foam insulation on the steel fuel ines; the type that is use to insulate the water pipes on home hot water heaters, and that helped too. As for building water, I use a product call Startron. We have 10% Ethanol here in Florida USA and that is rotten enough and some in our Government want to go to 15% which likely will make our cars static museum pieces. Maybe, at my age, I'll make it out off town before 15% or worse Ethanol comes to pass. Well, poor gas mileage, or medium poor gas mileage the car is on its way to Florida tomorrow. It is still on the website. Check www.lakeside1020.net if you want to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) The resistance to knock, with your 10:1 compression ratio will be determined by the octane rating and is controlled by a number of additive products used by the fuel company, not just the ethanol. The tendency to vapour lock is caused by the increased volatility of the petrol containing ethanol. This means that it tends to boil in the warm conditions and create a bubble that blocks the flow of fuel. You are quite right that a "pusher" type fuel pump should overcome this. We are having the hottest day of the year so far, today. It is 88 degrees F. Perhaps your higher ambient temps emphasise the problem. I have not had any trouble with vapour lock myself. And I believe that Europe is a net exporter of gasoline to the USA because of our greater use of diesel. Adam... Edited August 12, 2015 by Alfa (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Ethanol can also colonize in the tank and, in some instances, develop a collective intelligence commonly referred to a a monsanto. When maintained at half a tank they can become agitated and aggressive. If your garage is attached to your house always check that the gas cap is tight before you go to bed.Being the victim of a nocturnal hygroscopic incident wouldn't be my idea of dry humor.BernieAnd in Florida where the temperature is 95+ every day, gasoline can swell and boil out of the tank if it is kept full. Having had that happen on one of my 39 Buicks years ago, I never keep a tank full. On the old cars I typically keep it about 1/4 full. Real gas for them is so expensive here and so far away and I run them so seldom, I can't afford to have much gas laying around unless I'm going somewhere significant. Real gas is 8 miles away and $5 a gallon. It takes almost two gallons just to get it. I do currently have about 3/4 tank of Ethanol in the 71 Buick Riviera because I'm taking it to Virginia soon and have to drive 100 miles on each end of the train ride. I'll fill it to the top the night before we leave and no doubt will have to get some more gas on the other end before I travel the second 100 miles. I had to do that with the 69 Electra convertible I was lucky enough to get rid of. And, if the guy who bought it from the dealer thinks I'm a doctor, well the dealer lied. I'm as far from a doctor as one can get.....I just visit them all the time at my age. Edited June 30, 2015 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The coefficient of expansion due to weather at this end of New York makes everything seem like Invar. That's the stuff we made satellite chassis out of so it wouldn't change in deep space. I keep the tanks full, usually top them off on Sunday nights, to keep humid air out of them and prevent rust on the exposed inner surfaces. Moisture can condense out and settle under the fuel where it will pit the bottom of the tank. Moisture also collects in oil pans during long storage and put pinholes in them. If I was going to leave them at a 1/4 I would probably try to get a light oil slick on the fuel surface to slosh around the upper surfaces to prevent rust scale. I got a surprise filling the Packard prior to reading the owner's manual. It has a whistle! A guy in camouflage coming out of the station yelled "Incoming!" and hit the deck. I'm not seeing the fuel issues yet. It will come someday, I imagine. Until then I'll just use it up as fast as I can. The way gas goes through those cars I'm going to have to refer to then a a gaggle of tin geese. 7 PM, now; I'm heading out for a 5 mile round trip for coffee in the convert. I have 700 miles on that one so far this year and the more I drive it, the happier it gets.Bernie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 +++++it has a whistle. Bernie, that brought back memories. I had completely forgotten those. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 All very amusing. A few thoughts regarding real gas vs. cornahol storage and use: Consider keeping a couple 5 gallon cans of 101 aviation fuel as an additive during driving season as it's shelf life is around 2.5 years as opposed to ethanol which has about a 2 month shelf life before becoming gummy bear and planes need to sit on tarmacs for very long periods of time. The aviation fuel laced with MMOil, used as an additive at about 1/2 gallon of aviation fuel ratio per 20 gallon of cornahol at fill up, drastically reduces the chances of vapor lock and increases the true octane rating for 10:1 compression engines. For winter or long term storage I usually fill the tank with full aviation fuel then use my DC fuel pumper to remove it in the spring and store it in a cool area in self sealing jerry cans. I add fuel enzyme and marvel mystery oil to this and reuse the fuel stash during the driving season as an additive as detailed above, then restock/refill the 20 gallon stash of the 4 each, 5-gallon jerry cans come late fall and winter for storage and repeat the cycle over again. If you have more than one car you can always draw the fuel out of your tank using a gas pumping / moving DC pump to drain it quickly, then remove the tank which is a fairly fast and straight forward procedure. Then throw a gallon of MMOil into the tank, swash it around, drain it out using a paint filter then restore in the MMOil jug for safe keeping. Reinstall the tank and let it sit for the winter as it will be coated with the MMOil then refill up in the spring and repeat the above procedures using the aviation fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 buickman, that's a lot to go through. I use Startron when I store, and I haven't had any problem that I know of from water. I only use real gas in the two '39s unless I'm out on a trip and have no choice. The steel gasline on a straight 8 goes between the thermostat housing and the head, and is held in place by a steel clip to one of the head bolts. That is where they vapor lock on Ethanol. I have not had any vapor lock problems on the 71 Riviera or the 53 Olds I recently sold. Real gas is hard to come by here, on station 8 miles away, so I don't usually use it in the 71 Riviera during season. I had to replace the fuel sending unit recently, and that could have been from Ethanol or just old age. As I said before Ethanol is 10% in all areas where I go, Florida, Virginia and in-between. This is off subject of course. I went ahead and bought the 64 Wildcat, and I'm expecting 10 mpg locally and 14 mpg on the road and hoping for 12 and 16 instead. If it is too bad I'll just sell it; certainly if it is worse than the Riviera I'll probably sell it because I bought it for a long distance AACA tour car and if it runs the cost of a tour up by $3-400.00 then it impacts my vacation budget more than I want it to. I'm retired and I only intend to use so much money for AACA activities. As a National Judge, with 225 National Meets, I go to most National Meets each year, but I usually drive modern. However the hotels add up. I do not agree with the statement "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." You have to set a limit on yourself or you'll end up doing without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Aviation gas is OK, but sometimes one feels out of place waiting in line.Bernie Edited July 1, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1221 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Dynaflash8 Since you live in Florida, do you have a WAWA station near you? These are fairly new in my part of the state (Tampa), but about half of them carry ethanol free fuel. They promote it as "boat fuel". The cost is about $0.50 - $0.60 per gallon above regular. Good luck on your search. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm in Sebring, and there is no WaWa Stations here. Obviously if they sell regular gas, my question is, can you drive a car up to the pump, or do you have to buy it in a can for your "boat"? There are some in Virginia but not close to where our house is there. But, that is really good to know, because maybe we'll get one here. Ha, I keep hoping for a Steak & Shake. Have everyting else but. I'm going to get A/C put into the new car over there in Tampa in October. If this car is as good as it is cracked up to be, it's going to be a shame to make the A/C modification. But, I didn't buy it as specifically a historical piece, but as a driver. I'll be third owner, and have all the old titles to go with the car, all three of them. But, back to gas. Hopefully, Florida is going to change the edict where Ethanol was the required diet for automobiles....evidently at stations that serve over so many gallons a day or something; otherwise this guy downtown couldn't be selling it. Aviation fuel. The airport is not supposed to sell it to cars, but I kind of think they do. The Sebring Airport is about 12 miles from the house. Aviation fuel can be bought in Frostproof (20 miles north) as well. The place in Frostproof is self-service, and I did get gas there in the car one time, because nobody was there to tell me I couldn't. If I could get regular I wouldn't need avaition fuel, and that is only 8 miles away, but as the only game in town it's about $2.30 above ethanol a gallon. All that said, this car will run on regular, or I'll find out why not. All it takes is a real mechanic to set it up, if you willing to suffer some loss of power at the traffic lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I tried the boat fuel. It requires special tubes. And the algae tinted my car kind of green. Bernie Edited July 1, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1221 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 The Wawa's in our area have a specific pump with with the "real" gas available . It is pumped into your car, just as you would pump your ethanol fuel. Not at all uncommon to see collector cars, as well as boats on trailers, at these pumps.Hopefully you will get one soon.Hopefully your AC install will go smooth. Every one I know that has used Classic Auto Air has been satisfied with their service. They have been around for a while.Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Thanks Kevin. The guy who will install it has his own shop now doing that, but he used to work for Classic Air and is friends with the guys there. I bought a stock alternator/compressor bracket off of a guy on eBay today. The installer said he hoped it would work. Of course if it doesn't he has another source, and I'll be out $59.99 until or unless I can sell it. Earl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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