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Help determining the value of a rebodied 1928 Stutz boattail


V.Milke

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Hi:

 

I need some advice. A friend of mine, here in Mexico, wants to sell his 1928 Stutz. It used to belong to an important collector here, from whom my friend purchased it almost 40 years ago. We know the body was remade probably 50 years ago or so, as a roadster with a boattail end, but apparently to good standards, by a local restorer.

 

It hasn't run in years but should not be much a problem to get it running again. My friend's mechanic is working currently with the brakes.

 

I know it isn't easy to ask for a value... and a thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and the owner is willing to accept, but what I am trying to do here is to determine a fair price for both buyer and seller. If I can afford it, I myself may be purchasing the car to share my garage with my 1928 Phaeton. If I can't afford it, let's say I am just helping my friend to determine a reasonable value for his car and perhaps find a new owner for it.

 

I am enclosing a few pics of it, hoping to give you all an idea of how it is. I don't have engine pictures but I am assuming the car is easy to get running and with it's original engine.

 

So... opinions?

 

Thanks for any help,

Victor

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Well, since you just ask for opinions.  Not running hurts its value, of course.  I think the light color doesn't help the car, either, but that's personal opinion.  The body may have been done well, but it is a little slab sided, and in one picture it appears the body curve doesn't quite match the door curve, but that's being picky. Also being picky, it must have been an enclosed car to start with, the windshield has a fabricated (and slightly heavy) look to it.

 

An original roadster, of course, would bring 50K plus.  My personal opinion is that this car, to someone who likes the look of it and just wants to have fun with it, knowing it's not original, is probably $18-22K, if in running condition.

 

I'm sure someone with more knowledge of Stutz may have a different opinion, looks like a fun car!

Edited by trimacar (see edit history)
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Victor that is a cool car.   Hopefully Jason will see this and add his two cents.   An original roadster in runing condition would bring more than 50k.

 

I generally advise against rebodied cars because you spend the same amount of money on it as you would a correct car but the value is never there.  I think if you paid 20k you would always be fine.  If you can get it to run maybe even 30k.   However,  I can tell you from experience that this is a 25-30k engine to rebuild correctly so if it is not running I would not go over the 20k.

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That body doesn't do the car any justice. I don't see any way of making it work on the long W.B.. The car really needs a new body as even though it is well made it just isn't ever going to look right.  And the lines are not really correct at all compared to any of the factory boat tails.

  A car that would be interesting enough if purchased cheaply; but a big, and expensive job to make correct.  These are expensive cars to work on , and without a solution to the body problem potentially a can of worms.

 

Greg in Canada

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I am not saying that it is a disaster, however I think a car like this deserves a more pleasing body. And my point is mainly that the car is going to have to sell quite cheaply in order to permit a re-body without the final cost being well in excess of what the car would ultimately be worth.

  While the car looks nice enough at first glance ; and probably remains so to most non- Stutz fan viewers, it will ultimately need a re- body to be right. So you are left with a car that  looks good, and being an open Stutz is pretty pricy in todays market. And while looking good to the casual viewer needs a signifigent investment to really live up to it's collector status.  All in all a bit of a dilemma.  

 

Greg in Canada

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Thank you all for your input. Unfortunately, I don’t think my friend will be willing to part with it for a sum in the vicinity of $20,000 to $25,000. I intend to go see him next week and see the car and find out, but most probably I won’t be able to purchase it.

 

I agree with most of the comments, except perhaps one that makes some noise in my head, regarding the long wheelbase chassis. True, Stutz boattails that I am aware of were done always on short chassis, and with ‘cycle’ fenders, if that is a way to call them, but many other 2 passenger cars were done in chassis as large as this one or even larger, with beautiful results. I can think now of the Packard roadsters in 140" or 145" wheelbase, or almost any Duesenberg is at least 142.5" and then there is the long wheelbase chassis (don’t recall how long it was).In Duesenberg chassis, there are several boattails and many roadsters and most of them are great.

 

The Duesenberg model X, in which at least a gorgeous boattail was done (1927 Duesenberg X, McFarland Boat roadster), has apparently a 141”wb and the car is fabulous…pic I found on the net at the bottom.

 

I agree that this Stutz looks a bit odd, but to me it is more the rear end design which is a bit tall for the rest of the car, and the switch from the curved hood and cowl area to the more sharply pronounced contour the shop did on the rear of the body, specifically on the door, plus the rear fender positioned rather low… but that is to my eye and only my opinion, of course. Anyhow, I agree it would need to be rebodied, though in my case I think I could get away with a partial rebody only… new lower doors, plus lowering all of the back end of the body and raising the rear fenders.

 

Of course the project would include modifying the cowl also. I don’t think what it has is a touring car cowl, as my Phaeton, which uses probably the same cowl, is different.

 

Oh, well, time will tell, but I don’t find it easy to think myself as the new owner. I may not come close to the money it will take to purchase it and then to do the full restoration work on it, which of course would include changing colors to a darker and probably two tone scheme.

 

Thanks again for the input and ideas.

 

victor

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Edited by v.milke (see edit history)
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Hi Victor, I agree that Roadster and even speedster bodies can be pleasing on the longer w.b. cars. But they are more difficult to get right. I have seen a few long w.b. Stutz roadsters and some of them are quite elegant. The nicest ones ; to my eye at least, tend to drop the body height at least a few inches just behind the seating area. This reduces the amount of relatively flat body surface in between the rear of the door and the front of the rear fender.. The factory speedsters do much the same except the drop occurs just behind the windshield along the length of the door.

  Your friends Stutz is a very nice car; and I also doubt that he would sell in the estimated price range, but as  I previously said the car becomes a expensive beginning to a quite involved project.  It has too much potential to leave as is, but can it be put right without breaking the bank ?   

 I like vertical eights a lot, but the way prices have risen over the last several years I have come to the conclusion that they are now out of my reach. And the same is even more  so for the open bodied cars. I think your friends car is going to need a new owner with quite deep pockets for it to become the jewel it has the potential to be.

 

 Greg in Canada

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You know, the only thing wrong with the body (to my eye) is the height of the rear fenders.

If the car was put on larger tires, and the rear fender was raised up so that the top was in line with the front fender, the car would look a heck of a lot better. I also couldn't agree more with the earlier comment that a two-tone paint job would hide the length and make it stand out.

Attached is a page from a Stutz catalogue. Note the respective fender heights of all the body styles, then look again at the profile shot of this car. 

 

It is actually a pretty fine Stutz.

post-146835-0-84107500-1434464007_thumb.

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Victor, Good to see your still adding to your beautiful collection.

 

I agree that the Stutz has a tonne of potential but i agree that the owner selling for 20 to thirty thousand is probably not going to happen unless he really wants to see it go to someone that will do right by the car. Open bodied Stutz's have definitely risen a lot in price even being a rebody. Do you have any knowledge on how many origional parts are on the car. chassis?, engine? Trying to asess a value sight unseen is virtually impossible. I feel the only thing you can do is get a price from the seller and decide if you are willing to pay. After you buy the car and repair the body you will be into it for more than it worth but at least you will have a boattail to enjoy driving in sunny mexico. can you really put a price on that. :}

Kirk

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There was an early 30's Pierce Arrow roadster for sale not long ago, $35,000 and looked nice at first glance.  Then, upon looking further, it became very obvious that it was a sedan that was cut down, and an open body made.  It was for sale for a while, and I'll bet it sold to a non-car guy who now regrets his purchase.

 

Is a Stutz running gear more valuable than a Pierce running gear?  Possibly.  I think that's what's for sale here.  The body on this Stutz is not correct, and will never be correct.  That's why I put the value I did on it.

 

If someone is more familiar with Stutz values, and think it's worth more, then so be it. But this still isn't an "open" Stutz, it's a Stutz running gear that's had a body installed that's incorrect.

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Hey Kirk! Thanks for your kind words! I intend to see the car next week, but as far as I know it is basically a very complete and sound chassis that would certainly benefit from a new body. 

 

After my lifetime's best car trip, in your gorgeous Auburn boattail, I deffinately like the idea of owning a boattail... and this one, while not correct, is one I could probably afford, purchasing it now and doing the work perhaps in a couple of years.

 

As David says, it will never be an original, and in that sense, I may never recover the investment needed to do it correctly, if my intention would be to sell it... but since it is not, and the real motive is only to have a nice looking boattail with a great chassis...  ;)

 

Thanks!

Edited by v.milke (see edit history)
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Thanks A.J.! Unfortunately, that is out of my reach also.... and while I understand that in the long run the Stutz would cost a lot and always be incorrect, it has two important advantages, the Stutz chassis and that I do not need to pay for it up front, but one part now, to get it, and eventually, when I do it, the cost of restoration.

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I am going to see the car this weekend, hopefully, and from viewing it, I will get a much better idea of what it's condition is and make my mind on a reasonable offer for it. I appreciate all the help and points of view. Thanks!

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Hey Kirk!

 

Well... it went good and not so good....

 

Good because the car is a good one and an excellent basis for a partial rebody, in my opinion. It is mostly complete (only non Stutz items are the headlamps, taillights, oil filter, carburetor, gas vaccum tank in engine compartment, wheel emblems and switches and cable pulls in the dashboard). The craftmanship it has is in my opinion good, and I believe a good portion of the current body could be reused but it would definately need to be redone. I just saw the structural wood in the top compartment lid and surroundings but it certainly looks well made and the metal attaching to it also. 

 

The engine sounds great, working from a Stromberg UUR2 carburetor (which would be the suitable replacement for the original Zenith as far as I have heard) and brakes were checked already, but the car is still on bases with the wheels in the air, as it has been for a few decades. Timing is not moveable now, and the control on the steering wheel is broken, but anyhow the engine started well and ran properly.

 

Not so good, because my friend does want more for the car. He listened to me and my arguments carefully and agreed to all the comments I read to him from the forum, but in the end, he does want more for the car. I offered $35K. He tells me he will try to get more for it offering it for sale. I will be out for a while but offered to call back in a month and a half and see what he had thought about it.

 

Thanks for your concern!

v

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From your description, and the issues with the car as described, I feel your $35k offer was generous.

Get down to basics, what are you buying? A chassis that may or may not be drivable (a seller shows the car up on blocks, running? Think about it)... And a body that's incorrect, and needs major rework to....oh yeah, still not be a factory, nor period custom body maker, body....

Stutz is a great car and name, but there needs to be value to go with the price....

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  • 4 months later...
  • 1 year later...

I just thought I would update the topic...

 

I could never reach and agreement with the owner, and now, a year and a half afterwards, the car is still being offered for sale. The problem is price: the owner is asking for a bit under $75,000, which is a huge amount of pesos (mexican currency). But he hasn't gone a single cent down on his pretenssions!

 

I would have loved to get it, but the price is absolutely unrealistic, in my opinion.

 

Oh well... as a friend puts it: I have one less problem!  ha ha

 

victor

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  • 5 years later...

Hello Victor,

It is now February 2022 and the STuTZ in Mexico City is still for sale!!

I am the Treasurer of the STuTZ Club and received an email from the owner, his first name is Jose, of this STuTZ this week asking me to contact club members about the car being for sale.  I have hesitated since he only provided some photos and very little information which does match the story you shared.  With all of the scams about, I did not want to pass on bad information.

Based on the tag on the firewall, the car was originally a 7-passenger sedan/limo on a 145" wheelbase.

Would you have any further information on the owner or the car since your last post?

I tend to agree with your assessment on the asking price being way too high back in 2017.  He would not give me an asking price when I asked him.

Any information would be appreciated.

 

Dan DiThomas

Treasurer, STuTZ Club Inc.

 

 

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The added photos help a lot. I have been around real Stutz Boattail speedsters and the great DV-32’s. The car is poorly done, the interior also. Under hood it’s a nightmare. Body and door fit is poor. Overall a poor example of a home built car. I would value the car today at 20k US if someone couldn’t live without it. Getting it sorted and reliable would cost more than the purchase price. Got to love the yellow firewall and plastic wiring. It could be a fun bang around car..........at a price.

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Hi Ed,

You are correct.  Plus, the cost of getting it out of Mexico.  I was glad to find this old post from Victor.

I have only exchanged brief emails with the owner, and I sense he thinks he has a prize!  It is hard to sort that out in emails.

Dan

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2 hours ago, STuTZ693 said:

Hi Ed,

You are correct.  Plus, the cost of getting it out of Mexico.  I was glad to find this old post from Victor.

I have only exchanged brief emails with the owner, and I sense he thinks he has a prize!  It is hard to sort that out in emails.

Dan



Understood.......seen it a hundred times before.

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Hello Dan! 

Quite an old post... and things have changed a bit with the Stutz, but not the steep price. I will start by saying  what you said in the other post. I don't know the current asking price but: " I sense he thinks he has a prize!  "

The past owner, a very nice gentlemen who had it for close to 4 decades, could never sold the car at his asking price... so he very generously decided to donate to a Cancer help society. This society in turn offered it on the market. I tried to get it, but again the value discussing was not easy and it was sold to the current owner who I am sure made a much better offer than mine. That was proably 3-4 years ago.

As the collector car world is small, eventually I was contacted by the new owner, a very interesting and nice guy probably in his early 70's, who also has one other interesting old car and several newer classics... but he never uses any of them and likes to run around in his bycicle. He keeps them in his house, a late 1800's or early 1900's era house he restored in Mexico city, but has a daughter in Queretaro, the city I live in, 3 hours north of him. Eventually he accepted my invitation to lunch and to see my Stutz phaeton. He came around Christmas to visit and we had a great time, and stayed a few days here with his family. He offered me the car, but again, with no price, only a vague idea that he wanted to trade it for a small house in this city... which gives you a sense that he does want a lot for the car. Since then, he has called twice to insist a bit on the idea. There is no huge market for a car of this type down here. I know he has called at least another collector that I know, but he has not been able to sell it. I have an open invitation to visit him and see the car. I will do that soon... to see his house as the car I almostly know it by heart and have at least 50 pics of it that I took when I was looking at the chance of getting it to partially re-do it.

If I would have to guess, he bought the car without knowing what he was getting, and he probably overpayed it. I guess he was not too happy to hear the story about his being a rebodied car. 

That being said, I would still love to get the car to repair it, or re-do it as it is, using most of what it has, but only improving the lines and workmanship. That means reducing the body height, making new doors, etc. It would be like playing to be a designer in that era. I had made some excercises on it and believe it could look great! But of course, I also know that would take a lot of money and that the final product would not be worth it. But anyhow, I wanted to do it.

I had no idea that the firewall number confirmed it at as 7 passenger sedan, but it matches what I had thought, as another old friend, now deceased, told me his father had such a car when he was little, already as a used car in not very good shape, and that it  eventually fell in dispair and was sold. He never knew what happened with it. I am almost sure it is this same chassis used for the speedster, as Stutz was not a common brand in Mexico. I am sure only a handful were sold.

Anyhow... that is the update. In brief, yes, the car is still for sale, now with a new owner, but he does want a pretty hefty price for it, uknown to me. I will continue to pursue it, but I would not pay a fortune for it. 

Victor

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