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1941 dodge fluid drive issue.


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Not sure what you mean. Is the clutch not working? Fluid Drive should be engaged any time the car is in gear and the clutch engaged.

 

By the way the torque converter was not invented when Chrysler adopted fluid drive. The fluid drive unit looks like a torque converter and acts like one, except it does not multiply torque. Fluid Drive slips at low speed, tightens up as you accelerate.

 

Besides the fluid drive unit, your car has a conventional clutch and 3 speed trans. You can step on the clutch, shift into gear, release the clutch fully, and drive away like an automatic. At stops you do not need to shift, you can come to a stop like an automatic then pull away.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Thanks for replying to my post.

My fluid drive is functioning like a standard transmission only. The engine will die if I don't disengage the clutch. I haven't check the fluid yet, but was told by the previous owner that he used ATF in it.

If it were low on fluid it would slip, from what I've read, but nothing here of the problem I am having.

Bill

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  • 2 weeks later...

You may not have a fluid drive problem.  It could be a carburetor problem.

 

Off the top of my head I can't think of a reason the front half of the unit would seize to the back half.  If you were low on fluid the unit would spin but move the car poorly, if at all.  The unit should never be filled 100%.  That is why the service panels are offset from the center of the hump.

 

The first test I would do is to park on a hill and leave it in gear and shut the engine off.  If you take your foot off the brake the car should roll if the fluid drive unit isn't seized up.  There should be no rigid connection between the engine and the transmission with a fluid drive.  You need a good parking brake.

 

What I suspect is your carburetor needs a rebuild, or you possibly have the wrong carb on.  Yours should be a Stromberg BXVD-3.  The fluid drive carbs have an an acelerator pump and a deceleration pump ( I believe it is called a Dash Pot).  The deceleration pump holds the idle up a little while the car is coming to a stop and this allows the fluid in the drive to start spinning to do its job.  If that pump isn't working properly the car will likely stall.

 

Check your Shop service manual for adjustment.

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Thanks for responding to my post Ron. It didn't look lik3 anyone was going to touch that one. Lol

    The torque converter seems to be locked up alright. If the clutch is engaged, you're moving. That, in itself, isn't a big issue to me at this point, I think I would just as soon not have the fluid drive. I would prefer the straight standard trans, but it would be neat to have a working unit. I realize there is a minimal loss in performance with the "slipping" characteristics of a fluid drive, without the modern feature of "lock-up" in newer vehicles, but would be fun to drive if all was working well.

      My sedan is a recently purchased project, and a pretty nice survivor. It is a town sedan, non-suicide 4dr model, that I believe is a little shorter that the sucide door model, with one less window on the side. I haven't had it long, and have been tackling mostly the more minor issues so far. The heat riser is stuck,(conflicting reads about whether needed) electric choke is disconnected (I installed a manual) and a noise when running that comes and goes. It's kind-of a rubbing metal noise, but not a knocking noise. It runs good, and the car drives well, and hsve had it cruising at 60mph.

      Other than removing the torque converter, (it's either locked up, or the fluid level is fine, haven't checked yet) I don't know any other recourse.

      With your username I'm assuming you own a '42? Form the little info I've gathered up to this point, your '42 is very similar to the '41? I know that the wheel cylinders are unique and quite pricey. I attempted to clean and hone them before I invest in new. Cheapest I've found is $75 a piece, and most want to sell the complete set of 4, which I may need anyway.

     It been a chore and a pleasure massaging the old girl. I guess we enjoy that kind-of thing or we wouldn't buy the old stuff.

     Thanks again for responding, and sending the link to the carburetor info. If there is anything else you would care to share about the old Dodges, I'd be ALL ears.

               Bill

P.S. I'm actively searching for a '41 Dodge or DeSoto business coupe. If you know of something for sale, please let me know.

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Bill,

 

Yes I have a 42 Dodge with Fluid Drive.  I had some stalling problems with it until I got the proper rebuild kit.  

 

One problem I had in the very beginning my clutch disc was stuck to the face of the clutch plate and that would not left go when I pushed in the clutch. But that was a whole different set of problems.

 

If the clutch is engaged (pedal let out) and the car moves, it could be working properly.  The fluid drive units don't normally need service unless the seal goes bad and then the leak to about half full.  They are like two turbines facing each other and when the one connected to the engine spins, the stirring action of the fluid turns the other.  

 

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There is not a lot of power loss unless your fluid is low.  I actually spun my wheels once by acident when I was fighting my vacuum advance and some idling issues.  But just because the car moves in gear does not mean the fluid drive unit is seized.  The turbines do not touch so the only way I think that could happen is if your fluid turned into a solid.  Since the fluid is an oil and the unit is sealed, there shouldn't a lot of room for contaminants. If the seal was bad and the fluid drive was half full when put away for a long time, I supose there is a possibily of moist air getting in and rusting enevtuallythe top half.

 

Try the hill test.  If you are on a decent hill in gear with the engine off, and you take your foot off the brake, normally the fluid drive will allow the car to roll.  (That was the case at my first car show when I did not know this.)

 

I did have to have my seal replaced and I shipped mine to Northwest Transmission I belive in Winchester,  Ohio.  

 

The first carb kit I bought did not have the pump for the dash pot.  I now have a spare kit jus in case.  It is a Stromberg RK-143 kit for the BXVD-3 Carb for 1942-48 Dodge passenger cars with fluid drive.  Not sure why that kit number would not work on your year.

 

A good service parts source is andy bernbaum and also Robert's Motor Parts.  They both have catalogs on line.

 

The metal noise could be your water pump.  It has a grease zerk.  Use marine grease on that.

 

I don't have any leads on a business coupe.

 

Feel free to ask questions.  I'll try and help.

 

Ron

Edited by Ron42Dodge (see edit history)
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Hi Ron!

I will try the hill test. Been busy lately, and still need to do a

little brake work.

I did grease the water pump, and no difference. I'm still puzzled at

the noise, and seems to be coming from the rear of the engine. (Wondering

if it has something to do with my torque converter problem)

Again, the noise I spoke of previous, is intermittent, sometimes no

noise. I mentioned earlier too, that I wonder if someone dropped something

in the fill hole.

My carb must be working ok, 'cause it has a retarded return to idle

speed. It doesn't just slam back to idle, it slowly returns.

As I mentioned too, my sedan is a survivor of sorts, and the only

things that don't work are the gas guage and the radio. The dash lights

dimmer, bright light indicator, single fog lamp, etc. etc. all work.

Bill

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Edited by '41 Dodge LL (see edit history)
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If the noise is near the fluid drive area, I wonder if something has fallen into the area that covers  the unit or worse yet, your graphite ring at the seal has crumbled.  

 

I am attaching a diagram of the fluid drive unit and the clutch.

 

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The starter uses the perimeter teeth to turn the engine.  The engine turns the outside shell which the front inner turbine is attached to.  The other turbine is attached to the clutch plate.  There is a small gap between the two turbines.  

 

I believe there are 2 drain plugs on opposite sides of the fluid drive.  The service hole is on the passenger side of the transmission hump close to the firewall.  There is a cover plate which allows you to see the unit.  You usually have to use a wide blade screw drive pressed against the base of a fin to try and rotate the unit until you can see a service plug.  The real trick is removing the plug without dropping it into the housing.  There is only about 1/4" of threads.  The service hole is intentionally off from top dead center so the unit is never completely full.  You can fill it until the fluid is up to the threads.  There are many oppinions on what to use for fluid.  I think they all seem to work.  I think I used dextron III transmision fluid.  Getting the fluid in without making a mess is the challange because you want to be able to tell if your seal is leaking, so you don't want to spill. 

 

There is a belows seal 9-46-55 and a graphite ring seal 9-46-58.  The graphite ring can crumble if irregular pressure is put on the ring.  I remember when my graphite ring broke and I drained the unit and took the fluid drive out, I could hear pieces inside.  It may be possible that a chunk of your ring is lodges between the turbimes but I would think it would break quickly because it is only graphite.

 

If you try and remove the fluid drive you have to remove the drive shaft, transmission ans clutch first.  There is a bottom cover that hides the clutch and fluid drive and as I recall you have to lossen a body bolt to get the cover off.

 

As I recall there are about 8 studs 9-46-10 that bolt the fluid drive to the back of the crank shaft of the engine. There is not enough room to unscrew the nuts all the way so you have to lossen them part way and slide the unit a little to get the nuts off.  If you are laying under this the fluid drive weighs around 50 pounds and the cooling fins feel wonderfull if you rest it on your chest.

 

This may be where you are headed.

 

Or maybe you will luck out and something just crawled into the housing cover and is scaping the unit as it turns.

 

I would try checking the fluid level and if low, add some fluid.  Then watch for leaks.  Once it gets above half way it will be at the seal height and will leak if the seals are bad.

 

Keep me advised if you can.

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Thanks again Ron.

You are a wealth of information. I will get at it soon I hope. Funny how work will put a cramp in your style. Lol

Looking forward to using the old Dodge for local transportation and fair weather country drives.

I'll keep you informed.

Let me know how your Dodge is doing too!

Bill

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Little bit late on this, but the Fluid Drive is engaged whenever the engine is running.  As soon as you start the engine, the fluid coupling is turning.  If you want to shut off the Fluid Drive, you have to turn off the engine.

 

If you have the car in gear, and no feet on the brake or clutch, the car will move.  Just like an automatic when you put it into gear - D, 2, 1, or R - it will move on its own when you do not have your foot on the brake.  But unlike an automatic, a car with Fluid Drive will move in gear with the engine off if the car is on a slope and no brakes are on. 

 

Now, if you have Fluid Drive and you put the car into gear, remove your foot from the clutch, and it stalls, then you may have problems.

 

The roof on the town sedan is the same as used on the regular 2 and 4 door sedans.  The front doors on the town sedan are a little longer than the six window sedan but shorter than the 2 door.   And the rear doors, with the quarter window, are a bit onger than the regular sedan doors.   

 

It is a great looking car, though, in very good condition, and is a rare model.   Only Dodge, and Chrysler Town & Country, offered the town sedan after WW II.

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Thank you sir for your input. Didn't know all those specifics such as

roof and door dimensions. Always fun to learn more things about a vehicle.

    I've noticed very few of the town sedans on a web search, so figured

they were a little more unique. And, even though I was in the market for a

suicide door car, I found this model appealing.

    Been searching for the same year business coupe for a while, and when

this came up, especially in its condition,  it was hard to pass up.

     Still looking for the coupe though.

    Definitely stalls with clutch out in gear. May have to tear into it

eventually. Carb on the fluid drive units, I learned, are slow return to

idle. This one seems to be functioning properly.

      Thanks again, bill

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Joe.  That link is for and automatic shifting Chrysler fluid drive unit.  The Dodge does not automatically shift, it is still a manual shift system.  There is no solenoid, governor, relay or kick down switch on the Dodge.  That link might be more confusing.

 

I agree with the majority  of Crycoman's input although I don't like the term engaged, although I know what he means.  The fluid drive unit is bolted to the engine crankshaft so that is what is always engaged.  However internally the front half and the back half are never engaged physically.  It is only the stiring action of the fluid from the engine turning the fluid drive assembly which also turns the front half of the internal "driving member" that turns the back internal "driven member".  Both members are stamped steel with welded fins.  The driving and driven members should have no mechanical connection between each other and that is why I don't like the term always engaged.  

 

If the driving and driven members are stuck together, then possibly moisture got in there and the 2 rusted together.  If there was a bad seal and the car sank into the dirt so the fluid drive was into the dirt, it is possible that during heavy rain the unit could have been partially submerged and water leaked in at the bad seal.  A lot of stars lining up there but it could happen.

 

That is where I like the parking on the hill test with the engine off but the car in gear.  If you let your foot off the brake the car should roll.  If the driving  and driven members are fused together it won't.  (Although if you have really bad compression in the engine the car might roll too)  But you do need brakes for this test so get those working right first.

 

I would think that if the unit was somehow fused together it would be out of balance and shake a lot when you are driving.

 

When you pull the filler plug you are staring at the driven member and its fins.  You could look for signs of rust.

 

I'm gradually getting use to using my fluid drive.  I do come to complete stops in what ever gear I'm in.  If I'm going to sit at a light I tend to push the clutch in once I'm stopped just because it seems easier on the engine idle.  Then when the light is about to change I let the clutch out at idle and drive off.  I usually start in second gear unless I'm on an incline.

 

I am really curious as to what is going on.  Any chance someone took it out or are you sure it even has one.  It was a rare option in 1941.

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Thanks to all you fellas for the invaluable info. I am happy but embarrassed to say that my problem is simply operator error. I took my '41 for another drive last night, (just got the brakes cherried up) and dared to come to a stop without depressing the clutch. It didn't kill the engine! Being accustomed to standard transmissions, I felt as though I better disengage the clutch or else chance a non-start situation.

I enjoyed driving the old girl, and familiarizing myself with this foreign drive system. Everything functioned as designed.

Bill

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That's great news! 

 

It took me along time to get use to this easy concept.

 

Have you seen the video I posted on the 1942 Dodge driven by Jimmie Lynch.  It's on you tube.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z16M1Lo257A   There are all kinds of things you can now try, or not.  The stair climb is interesting.

 

Enjoy.

Whoops!

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My only gripe - "Fluid Drive TRANSMISSION" !

 

From 1939 through 1953 the Fluid Drive was included in service manuals and parts books, but not in the transmission section.   The same went for the Fluid Torque Drive (torque converter) because the unit was not the transmission on the car.   The transmission was either a three speed manual or Chrysler's 4 speed semi-automatic M-4/M-5/M-6.   

 

The last gasp for Fluid Drive/Fluid Torque Drive was Plymouth's Hy-Drive, which was Fluid Torque Drive with a 3 speed manual transmission on the other side of the clutch.  In this case, though, Chrysler did push the set up as the transmission.

 

And Bill, very happy to hear your 1941 Dodge is working smoothly.  They were very reliable cars and although it is not a coupe, it is rarer than both the business coupe and the club coupe.  You may not have the take off the Dodge in the video has, but it will be an easy car to drive.

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Thanks Chrycoman,

I haven't had the car more than a couple months or so. My mission first, was to get her driveable. Guess I did that. At this time I will continue to make improvements as time permits.I want to keep her "old" as long as I can. (The odometer just turned 50,000. The interior is presentable, but with use, that may change. I will run errands with her on fair days. I haven't looked at production numbers, and am surprised to hear the Town Sedan numbers are below the coupes numbers. (Still looking for a Dodge/DeSoto business coupe, same year)

Thanks for responding!

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I agree, the Town Sedan is a rare body style for back then.  According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars they made 16,074 1941 Dodge D-19 6P Town Cars and 22,318 of the 2P 2 Door business coupes.  Between the Custom and the Deluxe models they made 121,646 6P 4 door sedans with the 119.5 " wheel base with the suicide doors.  Only the 5P Convertible (3,554) and the long wheel base 7P sedan (601) and 7P Limo (50) are more rare.

 

Your Town car does have a good look to it.

 

Enjoy.

 

Ron

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Thanks for the info Ron.

     When it comes to choosing to purchase a vehicle, most of the time (for

me anyway) it has to have a desired look to it. In this case it is the

front end. Second, it's condition. 'Course, thirdly, it would probably be

the price. If all those things fall in line, I'm probably going to take it

home.

      In my short time of driving it, it has developed a water pump noise

(gotta pick up some special grease) and just today, seem to be noticing a

little shudder. U-joint?

    I have an old "Motors" repair manual that is a wealth of information.

I'm going to depend on that thing to do most my mechanical stuff.

     If you have any stories to share about issues or problems you've dealt

with on your car, I'd be interested to hear about them.

Thanks again for the info. You've been very helpefull.

            Bill

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  • 10 months later...

I did find that coupe I was looking for. It's in wonderful condition. It needs the typical things a car does when it's been sitting a while, but runs great. Can't find any rust or rust repair anywhere.

This one has the power assist shifting mechanism. It works and drives, I think it needs a little adjustment, or the vacuum actuator may have needs. It's had a repaint long ago, but it's in wonderful condition. (Minus a few small dings)

Found this one in Maryland.

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