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Gound (not zero)


Rogillio

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Interesting issue with positive ground..... 

 

I have a pretty nice battery charger and it senses the batter type and the voltage and charges accordingly.  I have used it many times on my old 6V positive ground car to charge the battery.  I put a 6V battery in my new '26 DB and it barely turned the engine over.  So I put the charger on the battery and let it charge overnight.  When I tried to turn the car over, with the charger still connected, it would not turn over at all.  And the horn would not blow.  I took my meter and checked the voltage at the coil and got 12V.  Yikes!!  I disconnected the charger.  It obviously thought the battery was a 12V.  I connected again and it went thru its sensing and ended up picking 12 V again.  I did this several time and finally it settled on 4V.  So now I'm thinking I have a dead cell or something is screwed up with the wiring in this car.  I take the batter terminals off and the check the voltage at the battery and it reads 6V.  I put the charger on and it senses 6V and goes into charging mode.

 

So now I'm scratching my head.  What could possibly be wired wrong in this car?  There are no electronic components on the car just simple switches and a few coils.  I've charged the 6V battery with positive ground in my other car with no issue.  Then it occurred to me, I have one of the wheels off the car and the car is on jack stands.  So the chassis ground of the car is actually tied to earth ground in my shop thru the jack stands.  When I charged my other car with 6V post gnd, the chassis was isolated from earth ground.  So my theory is, the sensing circuitry in the charger is detecting a little current between its own earth ground and the car's chassis ground which is actually tied to earth ground too but with the high side (6V+) of the battery.

 

This is just a theory but I will test my theory when I get tires back on the car since one test better this old electrical engineer's opinions.

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Don't I recall that the '26 Dodge was a 12 volt car?  If so, that would explain why it would barely crank the engine.   Only a 6 volt charger should be used on a 6 volt battery.

I believe Dave is correct.  Four cylinder Dodges of that period are 12 volt.

 

Terry

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I believe Dave is correct.  Four cylinder Dodges of that period are 12 volt.

 

Terry

 

 

Nope, it is 6V pos ground.  I have two of them, both 1926 and both 6V pos ground.  I have the original mechanics manuals. 

 

The 6V battery was weak and the engine has not turned over in 7 years so it is understandable it would barely turn the engine over. 

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I'm not an EE but I can't imagine a connection to 'earth' earth would make a difference.  If it charges normally with cables disconnected then it certainly suggests something is wacky in the car wiring...  Since the wiring is so simple it should be easy to bypass any suspect sections.  Does your charger have an ammeter that shows it is actually charging?  My charger will not charge a battery that is too dead.  It has to have some minimum voltage before the charger will work (for safety ?).  Hooking up a good battery in parallel bypassed this so the bad battery would then charge. 

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I am a EE with 29 years experience in the aerospace industry and I've seen ground loop problems wreck havoc with electronic circuits. I'm 95% certain of my theory. I will do some testing to verify. But I cannot take the chassis off of earth ground till I get my tires on and off the jack stands. One of my engineering friends suggested getting a dumber charger. lol. I have one and will try that.

Edited by Rogillio (see edit history)
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I am barely a HS graduate, far from an EE. I do know that the terms "ground" or "earth" are largely misused terms. In a DC, automotive system, they are neither. They are simply the second conductor in an electrical circuit. Rather than using a second wire, cars use the chassis as the return. So, I cannot imagine what effect, if any, having the chassis grounded to earth could have. I have to believe there is nothing going on in that regard. It's like trying to argue against the old myth (and, yes, it is a myth) about concrete sucking the life out of a battery. I am also reminded of the old ground straps that people used to put on their cars to eliminate static shock when entering or exiting. They didn't cause charging issues

Edited by CarlLaFong (see edit history)
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I am barely a HS graduate, far from an EE. I do know that the terms "ground" or "earth" are largely misused terms. In a DC, automotive system, they are neither. They are simply the second conductor in an electrical circuit. Rather than using a second wire, cars use the chassis as the return. So, I cannot imagine what effect, if any, having the chassis grounded to earth could have. I have to believe there is nothing going on in that regard. It's like trying to argue against the old myth (and, yes, it is a myth) about concrete sucking the life out of a battery. I am also reminded of the old ground straps that people used to put on their cars to eliminate static shock when entering or exiting. They didn't cause charging issues

The issue of ground and earth ground has to do with the charger. The charger connects to 120vac in my shop. One of the prongs of the 120 connects to one side of the 240v bus on my breaker box. The other prong connects to the return leg that ties to the ground bus in the breaker panel. The ground bus goes out to the transformer on my utility pile. The transformer is grounded to earth ground via a long rod driven into the earth. There is along a long ground rod tied to the the ground bus is my breaker box neaer my meter base.

Follow me so far? Ok, the return leg of the 120v outlet is tied to the earth ground! The charger thinks it's return is zero volts. But it is not. The 6v of the battery is tied to the return. So there is a 6v potential between what the charger ground (return of the 120) and earth ground. This difference causes a little current to flow from chassis ground to earth ground. My charger has very sensitive sense lines to detect voltage, current and polarity.

The bottom line is there is nothing wrong with the car but the fact that the chassis was tied to earth ground confused the sense electronics in the charger.

Edited by Rogillio (see edit history)
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What an interesting situation.  A battery DC system usually floats with respect to ground and that is probably what the charger is assuming.  With your jack stand it certainly is not floating anymore.  It is likely that your home AC system has neutral and ground very closely related if not tied together.  So yes, probably two things in play here.  Just the battery not floating might be enough to confuse the charger.  Could it be doubled because of what (I guess) would be a DC ground fault?  Possibly... but out of my area of study.   This EE went digital.  :)

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Or just disconnect cables from battery.  I have run into ground loop issues when trying to measure very low amperage currents (manifested as noise).  Could a ground loop via frame to floor contact drain significant current from charging the battery?  It would be easier for me to imagine it could somehow trick the charger into not charging as mentioned above.  What about cars using those metal curb feelers or school buses/industrial vehicles that purposely have a chain dragging the ground for (what I always assumed to be) earthing purposes?  On the other hand I have read that it is not good to leave a battery on the concrete floor for extended periods of time (because of current leakage to ground?)...

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Or just disconnect cables from battery.  I have run into ground loop issues when trying to measure very low amperage currents (manifested as noise).  Could a ground loop via frame to floor contact drain significant current from charging the battery?  It would be easier for me to imagine it could somehow trick the charger into not charging as mentioned above.  What about cars using those metal curb feelers or school buses/industrial vehicles that purposely have a chain dragging the ground for (what I always assumed to be) earthing purposes?  On the other hand I have read that it is not good to leave a battery on the concrete floor for extended periods of time (because of current leakage to ground?)...

 

 

I agree it is not good to leave a battery on the concrete.  I'm not really worried about leakage current draining my batter as that would take a while and I hope to have the wheels back on soon....and the simply solution to that is to pull the battery terminals off.

 

So last night just for grins, I connected an aligator clip to the front bumper of my car and put the other end to my meter.  I took the other lead and stuck it into the high side of a wall outlet....and I read 115Vac.  So clearly my chassis was grounded to earth ground via the jack stands the concrete on my shop floor. 

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This is cut and pasted from Interstate Battery's website

History of the myth
The myth that concrete drains batteries has some historical basis. Many, many years ago, wooden battery cases encased a glass jar with the battery inside. Any moisture on the floor could cause the wood to swell and possibly fracture the glass, causing it to leak. Later came the introduction of the hard rubber battery cases, which were somewhat porous and had a high-carbon content. An electrical current could be conducted through this container if the moist concrete floor permitted the current to find an electrical ground. The wise advice of the old days to "keep batteries off concrete" has been passed down to us today, but it no longer applies because of the advanced technology of today's batteries.

 

Additionally, every battery retailer has their batteries stored on metal racks that are sitting on, or bolted to, concrete floors

Edited by CarlLaFong (see edit history)
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I didn't believe the "myth" of cement floors killing batteries. So I took a battery I knew to be good and left it on the garage floor. Tested it every day for about 3 days and it was fine. Then I forgot about it, came back in 3 weeks and it was dead as a doornail. Tried to charge it up but it wouldn't take a charge. This is a battery that was in my car and working perfectly. This was about 20 years ago with a battery pretty much the same as today's (flooded lead acid, plastic case).

 

Since then I have never left a battery on a cement floor unless I put a piece of wood under it and have not lost a battery. All my batteries last at least 5 years.

 

I have a friend who doesn't believe cement floors kill batteries and he leaves his spare battery, or a battery out of one of his cars, on the floor all the time. He buys new batteries about twice a year ( he has 4 or 5 cars).

 

Why this happens I don't know. I can't account for it in any electrical or chemical fashion. I just know if you don't like buying new batteries, don't leave them on a cement floor.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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5 years ago, I became quite ill. I was in the middle of a total teardown and redo of my motorcycle. Boss Hoss, 350 Chevy engine, regular car battery. After months of chemo, radiation, surgery, more chemo I was, finally, good to go. I reassembled the bike, stuck the battery in it and hit the button. It was partially dead, but half an hour on the charger and it fired right up. The battery lasted another 2 or 3 years before I had to replace it. Oh yeah, the battery was sitting on the bare concrete floor for the entire time. I tend to believe the battery manufacturers and my experience.

I remember when people put pennies on top of their batteries to keep the terminals from corroding. You ended up with corroded terminals and green pennies

 

http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/ask-experts-batteries-concrete

 

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/battery.asp

 

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/frequently-asked-questions/large-rv-marine-batteries-faq/can-i-store-my-battery-on-a-concrete-floor.html

 

http://72.10.52.249/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=1

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Interesting. I admit I can see no rational scientific reason why it would matter. I guess it is cooler on the floor but seams like that would extend the life not shorten it.

Mytht or not I keep my boat trolling motor on a shelf.

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Many things such as lamps and flashers and switches do not care which end is up. Positive and Negative are valid only in context to each other. Ground (electrical and chassis) can mean different things. Earth is the lack of all of the above.

 

There have been arguments about which way electrons move but in the world of the automobile it doesn't matter. Plus and Minus as accepted postulates do since everyone agrees on it and many components are one way devices (except for golf carts)

 

What is important is whech ends are tied together and which are independant (and hard to keep straight when dealing with solar - many PWM controllers tie the positive connections together and vary the negative).

 

It is important in automobiles to keep 6 volt systems seperate from 12 volts since many things run on one or the other. Positive or Negative ground is more a matter of which end is tied to the chassis. (an early discovery was since we have this great hunk of metal, we can save on wires by only running one side and just connecting the other to what ever is handy. 

 

Why the change: higher voltages allow smaller wires since a given wattage needs less current so back at cost/weight savings. (see the battle between Tesla and Edison and why NYC was odd).

 

Cement business I suspect depends on whether moist or dry. Temperature differences may affect also. Personally I always put something under non-junk batteries because it is easy. Am slowly becomming all AGM which does not seem to care.

 

Had some Jags and an MGA with two 6v batteries but were 12v systems. Major place it makes a difference is in starters. Most are 12v now so no need for 6v except for special cases (RVs, golf carts, and Solar). Besides most accessories that matter run off 12v (except USB whch is something else entirely).

 

One problem I've see is that battery chargers are getting entirely too smart. Many computers are like that - several times I have had to use a dumb charger for about 5 minutes to put a surface charge on a ded battery so the internal charger would recognise. Have a desulphating charger that is the same. Wonderful for reviving a battery but must see a surface charge to start. So I keep a really dumb charger around that will push electrons at anything.

 

One note: most automotive chargers put out really trash power that takes a big sink like a automobile battery to accept it. Modern computer cars do not like trash power. ALWAYS disconnect a battery charger before turning the key on a modern car. If you need more power, use a jump box but not a charger unless labroratory grade (and not found at FLAPS).

post-76431-0-18312300-1432847657_thumb.j

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Good points.

Only thing I would add is the coil does care which way current is flowing. The right-hand-rule says that if you wrap your right hand fingers around the direction the coil is twisted the direction of the magnetic field and subsegent current flow is in the direction of your thumb.

This is a great video that show polarity in red and blue. As PP said, it really doesn't matter as long as things are connected right.

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I didn't believe the "myth" of cement floors killing batteries. So I took a battery I knew to be good and left it on the garage floor. Tested it every day for about 3 days and it was fine. Then I forgot about it, came back in 3 weeks and it was dead as a doornail. Tried to charge it up but it wouldn't take a charge. This is a battery that was in my car and working perfectly. This was about 20 years ago with a battery pretty much the same as today's (flooded lead acid, plastic case).

 

.

. The exact same thing happened to me. Only twenty years later I found out that my son had swapped his dead battery for mine, and "forgot" to tell me.
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This is an interesting discussion to follow. I have never seen a battery charger that senses the voltage and can be used on either 6 or 12 volts. I think I will hold onto my older chargers. I like being able to simply slide a switch from the 6 volt to 12 volt setting on the charger. 

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Nifty stuff.  Electricity makes my head hurt, but, having been in the vintage Railroad Passenger business, I noticed a few things.  When you gang up a 32 or 64 volt DC "pile", and have to nurse it all winter long till the next tourist season, it becomes like a member of the family.  It has symptoms.  It may charge more on one end than the other over time.  One terminal, I can't remember which, turns black, the other often grows white hairs.  They are happier in cold, dry weather.  Mostly what goes on is exactly what that white coat guy from Interstate fails to acknowledge.  That most of the time cells are covered in greasy, moist electrically active smutz with electrons streaming between the connectors and down the sides of the case to ground.

 

We used to buy bicarbonate of soda from the feed mill in 50 lbs. bags.  And save your old jeans because you will throw them away after battery wash day.  The locomotive batteries were mostly clean because you could lift the running board lids and have at cleaning them with the bicarb and hosepipe.  Passenger cars got neglected because nobdy wanted to stick their head in a belly box full of sulfate.

 

I came to think of batteries as living things.  Being electrical and chemical, they sort of are.  For sure, I wouldn't make any absolute statements about their health and well being until I knew how they were being charged, watered, housed and cleaned.  More than once we revitalized a 3000lbs. locomotive set by draining, refilling with water, pound on the case to get the sulfate to drop, empty, rinse, do it again, refill and charge.  Nasty stuff, I enjoyed it immensely...

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Guest Flyer1

Not being an expert or anything but the term "ground/earth " is derived from the early days of the electrical circuits where 

the "active" line was returned to "earth" ( be it the positive or negative electrode,electricity is derived from "electron,so "positive earth" is the correct term for electron flow), this was done as already mentioned via an "earth" stake to complete the circuit.

 

In the event of a coil, the current flows through the primary circuit of the coil while the points are closed and the condenser is a short circuit across the points,this allows the primary winding of the coil to build up or saturate the core of the coil to maximum magnetic value.

 

When the points open,the magnetic field that was built up in the primary winding then collapses,this in turn causes the secondary winding of the coil which is of many more turns of wire to have an induced voltage output applied to it of many times the the primary voltage.

 

The condenser is then a short circuit across the points while the points are open ( a discharged condenser is initially a short circuit to a voltage applied to it,this will/might make sense considering the operation of the system).

 

When the points open the collapsing field in the primary winding of the coil not only generate the high tension in the secondary of the coil to give spark , it also generates a back EMF which is reflected on the primary winding ( as a rule of thumb it is usually about 10:1).

 

this means that the initially discharged condenser will "see" about 60 volts or 120 volts back EMF depending on the voltage of the system.

 

This then means that the condenser will start to charge, it will charge to a maximum while the points are open and then start to discharge because the field in the primary of the coil has dissipated to a certain extent.

 

Once the condenser has reached a charge dependent on time it will then start to discharge (while the points are open) because the potential of the condenser is above the initial charge voltage.This in turn recharges the primary of the coil to an extent and the primary is exited again to repeat the process,but it rings out because of system losses.Called a tank circuit i think?

 

It happens quite fast and is only to be able to be seen on a CRO.

 

Batteries from my experience seem to fail in the colder months,as far as i can make out the only reason they fail or discharge on a cement floor has nothing to do with ground but more to do with cold,and yes,keep the top of the battery clean between the terminals,i have measured "leakage" from one terminal to the case...ditch the electronic crap self sensing charger...nothing wrong with a dirty old transformer type that has switches to do the job...makes life easy being able to think about what  what we need for the job...cheers :)

 

Oh, and if you need to remove a battery for  a while.....sit it on a bit of timber off the concrete.

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Flyer, thanks for the great explanation on the principles of the condenser in the ignition system. However, I have a different view on the life of storage batteries. It's been my experience to have more failures in mid summer, because lead/acid batteries are more internally active as their temperature rises. The reason some batteries fail in the winter is because engines are harder to crank, drawing more current, causing specific gravity of the acid to drop and the freeze point to rise. Once that happens, the frozen battery usually developes an internal short circuit and is no longer rechargeable.

Opposing viewpoints are welcome. CRO: Cathode Ray Oscilloscope?

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If you take a big ol' can condenser from a scrap tube TV, hook wires to the terminals and touch them very briefly to a 110 outlet it will hold a charge for hours. If you then "induce" a charge into your younger brother by touching the now charged condenser to his arm he will scream and Dad will make it painful for you to sit for a day or two.

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Just to clarify the situation with regard to 6 or 12 volt Dodge Brothers cars.  Up until some time in 1926 they all had 12 volt electrics. Then in what many believe to have been a retrograde step, they went over to 6 volts.  This coincided with a change from the chain driven combined starter generator to a two unit system with separate starter operated by the flywheel ring gear and a generator driven off the end of the water pump shaft. From what I have read about it, the change was needed because it was felt the old starter/generator was not up to the higher speeds made possible with the introduction of the "c" type engine which had 5 main bearings (as opposed to three previously) but the switch to 6 volts is more difficult to fathom unless it was done on grounds of cost saving.  These 116" wheelbase cars cars are commonly identified as "6 volt, 2 unit " up to the introduction of the "fast Four".

 

I agree chargers are getting too clever by half.  I recently purchased a 6/12 volt charger which features a "start" facility - but only on 12 volts. What they don't tell you is that the battery needs to be almost charged before the jump start function will work.  Stands to reason really but it therefore has only a limited value and not worth the extra price you pay for it.

 

BTW I was always told it is good auto workshop practise to have the terminals disconnected when charging a battery.  Not really a problem with our old cars but on a modern it can kill an alternator diode if left too long....unless anyone knows different of course?

 

Ray.

Edited by R.White (see edit history)
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For some season I thought there were positive ground points and negative ground ones and the two contacts were of different materials because the pitting/erosion from the opening arc was directional. Can see that a coil would not care.

However coils were not really 6 or 12v they were really designed for 4.5 or 9 volts with direct power only for starting and through a resistor (the R terminal on a starter) for running. Wire directly and you were liable to let the smoke out.

Idea was that when the starter was pulling 100-200A to start the car, the voltage would drop A Lot just when you needed the hottest spark for a cold start. So when a 12v system, the ignition is really designed for 9v.

Now while I appreciate my "smart" chargers ability to "bulk", "absorption" and "float" charge plus "desulphate" (I leave little 50ma float chargers on the cars in the back garage for months on end - just put the vert in the back for the "100 days of summer") and have worked well for me but most of the cars are AGM now (just the H6 in the Crossie, M/C battery in the scooter, and two GC2s in the trailer are "flooded wet cells" now). Dumb chargers are easy to find, they are the cheap ones with a 6v or 12v switch and maybe an analog meter. Generally under $25. Really trash power though (more of a distorted half sine wave). Useful when needed though.

ps to really inderstand the components in the ignition system, see ELI the ICE man.

Meanwhile am discovering solar which has really gotten cheap: $350 for a good 200W system and add a buck for a 300W. Helps when dry camping, all I need ai a genny for the A/C. Hard part is a 100A DC circuit breaker for the inverter to run my coffee maker.

So 6v vs 12v vs 32v, used to be the only difference was the cost of the wires between (back in the early '70s at DR I designed a system that used diode steering to only need one wire for the lights in the back of a car. For everything to light up you used an AC (could get AC from the alternator. Would be even easier with the greatest invention of the 20th century: cold light (LEDs).

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"I have a pretty nice battery charger and it senses the batter type and the voltage and charges accordingly."

 

Around 1980 a good friend told me never to use a tool that was smarter than I. Then he gave me a Triplet analog VOM. I still use it most of the time.

15 years after he gave me the advice I bought a digital multimeter. It is in the top right drawer of my toolbox UNDER the Triplet so I am always reminded to use the Triplet first.

 

I can rewire and repair stuff Lucas made.

 

I have a 3 position switch on my battery charger, as well.

Bernie

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For some season I thought there were positive ground points and negative ground ones and the two contacts were of different materials because the pitting/erosion from the opening arc was directional. Can see that a coil would not care.However coils were not really 6 or 12v they were really designed for 4.5 or 9 volts with direct power only for starting and through a resistor (the R terminal on a starter) for running. Wire directly and you were liable to let the smoke out.Idea was that when the starter was pulling 100-200A to start the car, the voltage would drop A Lot just when you needed the hottest spark for a cold start. So when a 12v system, the ignition is really designed for 9v.Now while I appreciate my "smart" chargers ability to "bulk", "absorption" and "float" charge plus "desulphate" (I leave little 50ma float chargers on the cars in the back garage for months on end - just put the vert in the back for the "100 days of summer") and have worked well for me but most of the cars are AGM now (just the H6 in the Crossie, M/C battery in the scooter, and two GC2s in the trailer are "flooded wet cells" now). Dumb chargers are easy to find, they are the cheap ones with a 6v or 12v switch and maybe an analog meter. Generally under $25. Really trash power though (more of a distorted half sine wave). Useful when needed though.ps to really inderstand the components in the ignition system, see ELI the ICE man.Meanwhile am discovering solar which has really gotten cheap: $350 for a good 200W system and add a buck for a 300W. Helps when dry camping, all I need ai a genny for the A/C. Hard part is a 100A DC circuit breaker for the inverter to run my coffee maker.So 6v vs 12v vs 32v, used to be the only difference was the cost of the wires between (back in the early '70s at DR I designed a system that used diode steering to only need one wire for the lights in the back of a car. For everything to light up you used an AC (could get AC from the alternator. Would be even easier with the greatest invention of the 20th century: cold light (LEDs).

ELI the ICE man brought back memories....reminding us thar voltage leads current in an inductor and current leads voltage in a capacitor.

But remember, bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.

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Guest Flyer1

iagree.gif    When we were at "tech" school it was.....Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well  :)

For those that don't know.....it is a phrase for remembering the resistor color code.....:)

 

Headbang2.gif   :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

iagree.gif    When we were at "tech" school it was.....Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well  :)

For those that don't know.....it is a phrase for remembering the resistor color code.....:)

 

Headbang2.gif   :)

The "all boys" tech school I attended phrased it....."Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly".
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The issue of ground and earth ground has to do with the charger. The charger connects to 120vac in my shop. One of the prongs of the 120 connects to one side of the 240v bus on my breaker box. The other prong connects to the return leg that ties to the ground bus in the breaker panel. The ground bus goes out to the transformer on my utility pile. The transformer is grounded to earth ground via a long rod driven into the earth. There is along a long ground rod tied to the the ground bus is my breaker box neaer my meter base.

Follow me so far? Ok, the return leg of the 120v outlet is tied to the earth ground! The charger thinks it's return is zero volts. But it is not. The 6v of the battery is tied to the return. So there is a 6v potential between what the charger ground (return of the 120) and earth ground. This difference causes a little current to flow from chassis ground to earth ground. My charger has very sensitive sense lines to detect voltage, current and polarity.

The bottom line is there is nothing wrong with the car but the fact that the chassis was tied to earth ground confused the sense electronics in the charger.

 

I think you are over thinking the problem. I am not an EE but I am a retired 40 year IBEW Journeyman Electrcian, and with with all due respect your theory is really way off the wall! True the the neutral is tied to a "earth  ground" as well as the water supply if you have municipal water service only at the point of service diconect (panel),  however that is only a back-up to the nuetral if the utility looses the neutral to the service. This is why the neutral is reffered as the grounded conductor in the code book. To proove your theory wrong place a live exposed wire on concrete floor, nothing will happen, no breaker will blow, no spark......... nothing. Concrete is not really even considered a bad conductor.... There are also diodes preventing revers flow of current in your charger, that is taking in A.C. current and putting out D.C. 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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Does current lead voltage both into and out of a capacitor?  Or does the"juice" just fill the little thing up and then it empties out into black holes or adds to the universe's store of anti-matter or something...?

 

I just love reading this stuff.  I've never been good at electricity, frankly these discussions make my head hurt, but they are fascinating.  when I think of all the radio signals we now rely on, and they seem to mostly work, then add digital fiber, I just want to give the EE profession a medal.  Now back to my anvil...

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Guest Flyer1

Good question ? to the best of my knowledge the current leads only on the "charge" cycle of the capacitor (condenser/accumulator), although if the "nitty gritty" be known there would be some sort of lag/lead in electron flow out of the thing as well?

 

The reason a condenser was called an "accumulator" was because without going into too much boring detail is that the electrons were "accumulated/collected" and/or "condensed" within the device.

The "insulating" material between the "plates" (not valve related) eventually became known as an electrolytic capacitor (much like a battery with an electrolyte) ,although many forms of insulation were were used (mica/ceramic/tantalum/paper/glass etc.) they all posses different qualities.

 

The charge stored within a capacitor is from the best of my knowledge a "store" of electrons from an external supply,the "charge" stored within a coil is stored in the form of a magnetic field which also was developed from an external supply of electrons to "build up" the field.(the reason a coil "lags" is because as the applied voltage to a coil starts to build a field within the coil that opposes the applied voltage as the coil is charging).

 

What was the topic again? :) ground is usually referenced as "zero volts" regardless of positive or negative ground (DC volts)...simply a reference point from which to take readings with a meter.

 

Hope some of that makes sense.. :)

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I think you are over thinking the problem. I am not an EE but I am a retired 40 year IBEW Journeyman Electrcian, and with with all due respect your theory is really way off the wall! True the the neutral is tied to a "earth  ground" as well as the water supply if you have municipal water service only at the point of service diconect (panel),  however that is only a back-up to the nuetral if the utility looses the neutral to the service. This is why the neutral is reffered as the grounded conductor in the code book. To proove your theory wrong place a live exposed wire on concrete floor, nothing will happen, no breaker will blow, no spark......... nothing. Concrete is not really even considered a bad conductor.... There are also diodes preventing revers flow of current in your charger, that is taking in A.C. current and putting out D.C.

It's not a theory, it's a fact verified by test. The sense circuitry electronics probably operates in the milliamp region. Floating ground and ground loops confuse electronic sense logic. I don't have a scope to check but the charger might also ride a small milliamp ac signal on top of the dc current to detect the type of battery, the voltage, current and polarity. I don't know how the charger knows the type of battery, AGM, VLRA, etc. I do know when I checked the voltage between the hot side of my outlet in my shop and the bumper of my car ingot 120v proving the car was grounded thru the Jack stand and thru the concrete in my shop.

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