Vintagecarguy Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Hello all, does anyone know if modern engine oil additives can harm babbitt bearings? Thanks in advance.Vintagecarguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcslr Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Electric generating units ( steam turbines) and Air preheaters ( kingsbury-style support bearings) are Babbitt. Use high-performance oils.If you are concerned, the various lubricant suppliers ( of your choice) have technical numbers that you can call and speak to a lubrication engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfre Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 modern oil will work just fine. I used modern oil since 1961 in all my antique autos with no ill effects and still use my autos regularly,some of which have gone over 40000 miles.Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintagecarguy Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 tcslr and Alfre, thank you for your help.Vintagecarguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 modern oil will work just fine. I used modern oil since 1961 in all my antique autos with no ill effects and still use my autos regularly,some of which have gone over 40000 miles. Al Even though you have been using "modern Oil" since 1961, the modern oil of today has been changing, and so there is a concern not only of cars that have Babbitt but post Babbitt bearing engines as well. We all know that we must protect our engines with additives such as Zink and Phosphates to ensure flat tappet cam and lifter life because modern oil does not have those protective ingredients for older engines any longer. Would be nice if a chemical engineer from a oil company would chime in on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintagecarguy Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 Someone told me to use a Diesel specification 15w40 oil for a 1924 Olds that my grandfather and I just bought. I have heard this before but I wanted to be sure. Thanks again.Vintagecarguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) All engines use babbitt bearings, the modern version is a shell bearing made of steel with a thin coat of babbitt on the inside. The old bearings were poured babbitt with a thick layer of babbitt melted directly into the connecting rod or main bearing. So, it is doubtful any modern oil will attack babbitt bearings or we would all be in trouble. There are firms like Penrite that make oils and other lubricants for the needs of the old cars. They recommend diesel oil because it has more zinc. The zinc content of motor oil has been reduced in recent years because they are afraid it will poison the catalytic converter. I don't see how that can be a problem. Maybe on an old engine that burns oil like a maniac and then the zinc will be the least of your problems. Zinc was only added to motor oil about 1950 or 51, to get over a problem some of the new OHV V8s were having with cam and lifter wear. They put heavier loads on these parts than the older engines and zinc helped reduce wear. Now that the high performance pushrod OHV engine is a thing of the past, they are taking the zinc out. A roundabout way of saying zinc was not even in oil in 1924 when your car was built. Edited May 27, 2015 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 How babbitt bearings are made. These ones are for a Model T but your Olds uses the same type of bearing. Watch this video and you will understand at once, why nearly everyone chose replaceable shell bearings as soon as they figured out how to make them! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintagecarguy Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 All engines use babbitt bearings, the modern version is a shell bearing made of steel with a thin coat of babbitt on the inside. The old bearings were poured babbitt with a thick layer of babbitt melted directly into the connecting rod or main bearing. So, it is doubtful any modern oil will attack babbitt bearings or we would all be in trouble. There are firms like Penrite that make oils and other lubricants for the needs of the old cars. They recommend diesel oil because it has more zinc. The zinc content of motor oil has been reduced in recent years because they are afraid it will poison the catalytic converter. I don't see how that can be a problem. Maybe on an old engine that burns oil like a maniac and then the zinc will be the least of your problems. Zinc was only added to motor oil about 1950 or 51, to get over a problem some of the new OHV V8s were having with cam and lifter wear. They put heavier loads on these parts than the older engines and zinc helped reduce wear. Now that the high performance pushrod OHV engine is a thing of the past, they are taking the zinc out. A roundabout way of saying zinc was not even in oil in 1924 when your car was built.Rusty_OToole,I cannot thank you enough. I have to ask you what kind of oil would you recommend for our 1924 Oldsmobile (engine, transmission, and differential)? The car has not run for many years and although the oil is clean we would rather change it and that of course leads us to detergent or non detergent? Thank you again.Vintagecarguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermontboy Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Your oil is"clean" because all of the solids and contaminants have fallen out of suspension over the years. If you have not removed the oil pan you need to do so and you will probably find substantial amounts of sludge in the bottom of the oil pan.Transmission and rear end should be flushed out with kerosene or another solvent prior to replacing the lubricant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintagecarguy Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 vermontboy, thank you for the information and the tips.Vintagecarguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Your 1924 goes back before any of my cars. I would take Vermontboy's advice, remove the oil pan and clean out the sludge first. Draining and refilling the transmission and rear axle also seems like a sound idea. In fact lubricate the chassis, and oil everything that needs oil. I don't know what they recommend for a car like that. You might contact Penrite, or maybe someone with knowledge of the real old cars will chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Rusty, thanks for posting that video!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 On 5/26/2015 at 8:23 PM, Vintagecarguy said: Hello all, does anyone know if modern engine oil additives can harm babbitt bearings? Thanks in advance. Vintagecarguy. I have not seen any that will hurt a Babbitt bearing except heat, no oil, and wrong clearance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 They will NOT damage Babbitt bearings. They were developed specifically to not do that. Even by 1940 the oil makers were working on it because Babbitt compositions were changing. If you want maximum protection at warmup, when most wear occurs, use a 5W or 10W oil. The W refers to performance at low temperatures. The pump will be able to circulate the oil more effectively at startup because it behaves as a less viscous oil. If you have a splash feed, the same applies. Thinner oil gets into the oil ways easier than thicker oil. I use a 5W-40 CI-rated oil in my 1930 Dodge 8. Don't go near a non-detergent oil; all that stuff totted out in their favour is a myth. One of the reasons additives are used is to prevent the oil becoming sludgy and gummy and carrying everything around with it, then depositing it where-ever it stops when the engine is shut off. This crud was not picked up again and the oil ways narrowed. I suggest you read Richard Widman's paper on engine oils: http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 On 5/26/2015 at 10:30 PM, Rusty_OToole said: How babbitt bearings are made. These ones are for a Model T but your Olds uses the same type of bearing. Watch this video and you will understand at once, why nearly everyone chose replaceable shell bearings as soon as they figured out how to make them! We have been in the engine Babbitt Bearing rebuilding 52 years. The way bearings are really built, we have nothing in common with this video, other he is using Babbitt. If we poured bearings like the video shows, we would be out of business in one day. Yes, many bearings are still using Babbitt, but many of todays auto, and tractor bearings have an Aluminum bearing surface, and some are made out of solid Aluminum. In the video he talks about his bearing having the right color, what I saw was White, you do not want white, that comes from a cold pour. This is what you want for color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 How much does it cost to rebabbit a set of rods for a 1950 Chev six? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 On May 26, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Rusty_OToole said: . . . and you will understand at once, why nearly everyone chose replaceable shell bearings as soon as they figured out how to make them! I guess some manufacturers figured out how to make them sooner than others. My 1933 Plymouth came from the factory with modern style thin shell replaceable insert bearings (and full pressure lubrications) while I understand that some other brands did not get them until the 1950s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwellens Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 After reading all these, nothing was mentioned about oil filters. Most cars before 1930 did not have oil filters. Does this play into the non-detergent theory in that the contaminants do not stay in suspension and will have less wear on the babbitt bearings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, hwellens said: After reading all these, nothing was mentioned about oil filters. Most cars before 1930 did not have oil filters. Does this play into the non-detergent theory in that the contaminants do not stay in suspension and will have less wear on the babbitt bearings? NO! The oils back then were short lived in an engine. They broke down and became gummy and sludgy. With the oil being a sludge (i.e. high viscosity), they carried everything with them and deposited it when the engine was shut down. Most of the rubbish was not picked up again so the inside of an engine became very dirty and the oil ways were narrowed. Detergents (i.e. oil additives) were developed to stop this behaviour. All that about using non-detergent oil is a complete myth and based on misguided thinking. There is NO truth in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 On 8/9/2016 at 3:01 PM, Rusty_OToole said: How much does it cost to rebabbit a set of rods for a 1950 Chev six? Normally, a bearing, rod, insert, or cam bearing runs 200.00 each. Bearings are finished using original grooves, and shim style, if any. The thrust bearing on the mains is 100.00 additional. Babbitted shims, large rods, and inserts are up from there. We don't do any bearings larger then 12 inches. We have never lost any kind of bearing in 52 years, this year. We have all factory rebuilding machinery. Babbitt doesn't fail if built right. Most bearings that fail comes from the Babbitt not sticking to the tinned bearing, no temperature control. Another big cause, is the part lines not true, so when the cap is tightened, it will twist stressing the bond greatly. There is more, but I don't want to bore anybody more then I have. Thanks, Herm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Please carry on, I am soaking this up and storing it (I hope!). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Be it a poured bearing or insert bearing the contact surface is still babbit isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 17 hours ago, Curti said: Be it a poured bearing or insert bearing the contact surface is still babbit isn't it? 17 hours ago, Curti said: Yes, the surface is Babbitt normally, with some exceptions of other materials, such as copper-lead, sliver alloy, ect. One misconception people have about Babbitt today, is the kind of Babbitt available. Some think the Babbitt made years past is better then what is to be had now. Also some people think that the Babbitt to be had today is better then what was used in years past. Neither is true, what ever was available in 1920, is available today. If it is a mixture that they don't sell, they will mix it for you, or any mixture you can come up with that you think you would want to try. The norm for the factories in the U.S.A. used Grade #11, which is SN88----SB6.5----CU5.5, we use some times also Grade No. #2, which is SN89---SB7.5---CU3.5 . The first number is Tin, second number is Antimony, and the Third is Copper We use no lead. Thanks, Herm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Thanks Herm ! An informative post. I remember the symbols from chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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