1925 Transmission Fill

[EricHoman]

Hey guys, kind of a simple question here but what is the best way to fill the transmission oil on a '25 Dodge? My book of information says to fill "no higher than the top of the reverse idler gear bracket" but does not state how you are supposed to add the gear oil. I imagine you could remove the entire top cover of the transmission but this would also involve removing the floorboard containing the starter switch and foot pedals.

 

Again, I know this is probably a stupid question but I can't seem to find a fill hole on the transmission. Any advice is appreciated.

 

Thank You!

[cahartley]

Beneath the floor boards there is a little cover plate with 4 cap screws holding it to the top of the transmission just forward of the key lock.

Nothing to it.

Whatever oil you choose use HEAVY oil........I carry more than the recommended level and use 600W oil. It makes a difference.

They are crash boxes as it is and light oil won't contribute to clash free shifting.

 

BTW.......welcome to the Dodge forum!.......

Edited May 25, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[dwollam]

One of the bolts that holds the idler gear and cover on the left side is marked as the fill level. It is one of the upper side bolts, rear I think.

[EricHoman]

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful replies! It turns out I have had that cover off before but was thrown off by the cork gasket. It was caked on very tightly as if it wasn't supposed to be moved and I'm very hesitant to force things on a 90 year old car. I scraped around the gasket with a screwdriver and was able to get it to come up in one piece.

 

The car I'm working on is actually my Grandpa's but it has become my project as no one else in the family really has ever had any interest. It has been in storage the last 15 or so years and last year we got it out and running again. Everything is there and in pretty good shape, I'm just going through doing some little stuff and making sure everything is right to drive it without damaging things.

 

2nd gear makes a lot of noise when accelerating or decelerating so I wanted to make sure everything is clean and properly lubricated it in there. After taking off the cover it actually looks better than I thought. Plenty of oil and it seems fairly clean. 2nd gear does seem to show a little more wear than normal but doesn't appear to be anything serious in my non-expert opinion. The gear oil in there seems thicker than a normal gear oil but I am not sure what 600 wt oil should feel like. I will try find someone in the area who has some so I can compare.

 

I'm hoping thicker oil will slow the gears down and make getting into first gear easier. I think the clutch may drag just a tiny bit even with the pedal depressed because even if I have the clutch in the entire time from when I start the car it will still grind when I slide it into first.

 

 

[MikeC5]

Looks pretty good to me especially when you consider how many times it has been ground over 90 years instead of sliding in smoothly.  I know there a few threads on freeing up a sticky clutch which involves unbolting the sheet metal cover on the bell housing and spraying brake cleaner or pouring kerosene in there and letting it soak for a while. http://forums.aaca.org/topic/189038-clutch-plate-treatment/?hl=%2Bsticky+%2Bclutch#entry949966

[cahartley]

Your photos show the "stick-to-it-tiveness" of 600 weight oil....... 

I didn't have enough 600 oil to do the trick in mine at the time so I added a couple tubes of 00 grease which is a light, flowable, grease.

Type O is still fairly flowable and is better know as corn head grease as recommended for John Deere combine corn heads.

Made a world of difference!

[EricHoman]

Thanks again guys, other than my little issue with first gear I haven't really had any trouble shifting so as long as the gears are in decent shape and covered in oil I think I'll just put up with the second gear noise. I'll try to do a little more research on the clutch.

While I'm talking to you guys, have you had any experience with weak starters? (This car has the starter-generator). When I engage the starter it will try to turn over but can't get over the compression stroke and gets stuck and makes noise. I'll release the starter, letting the engine rock itself back then press it again. Once it gets over the first compression stroke it seems to spin at a good speed.

Any experience with this? If not I'll start a new thread.

UPDATE: After going for a drive yesterday the starter hasn't been hanging up anymore. I think I'll leave it as it is and see if it doesn't act up again.

Edited May 28, 2015 by EricH (see edit history)

[cahartley]

Er YEP........ LOL

The starter needs a LOT of juice to do its thing.

Next time it "fails" hold the starter button just a LITTLE longer......then carefully feel around all the connections to see if any are heating.

If so you know what to do.

If not take off the band at the rear of the starter and try the starter again.

Again CAREFULLY feel for a heating brush or brushes. It's only the two top brushes in play during starting.

Your problem describes the problem I had to a T........in fact i was so discouraged I started that thread >>> http://forums.aaca.org/topic/236403-does-anyone-have-a-servicable-north-east-model-g-startergenerator/

Luckily my problem turned out to be the brushes which I was able to change without removing the starter.......WHEW!

If you suspect it is the brushes you need only a pair as the lowermost brush is for generating only and is likely OK.

Not only that but you would have to rotate the starter in its housing in order to change that one........which still beats removing the starter and contending with separating the silent chain........ 

 

Eric........I just checked your profile and see you are 24 years old.

I like that.......I like it a lot that some "youngsters" take an interest in OLD cars!.......

 

While I'm busy adding and adding to my initial post.......DOES your car have a grease cup sticking through a floorboard?

On the other side there should be a hose leading to the throwout bearing.

It wouldn't hurt to turn a cup full of grease (or more) in there.

My Dodge clutch likes to get ornery on occasion too.

 

Hopefully my FINAL edit.......   .........if you would like to learn about the Dodge brothers I encourage you, and any other interested people, to get this book >>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814332463/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I thought I knew about them but, WHOA, there is so much more!

Edited May 27, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[EricHoman]

Thanks for more good information! I have noticed from skimming these forums that removing the starter can be quite a hassle. I'll try take some time tomorrow to feel for any heat building up.

 

As for the clutch issue, I do have the grease cup for the throwout bearing which I will make sure I have good and lubed up. I am not optimistic that it would make a difference however because my understanding is that a sticking clutch would cause it have an issue grabbing fully when released, while my problem is that the clutch does not quite seem to fully release from the transmission when fully depressed. Either way I will try the simple solutions first

 

As for my age I never thought I would get so intrigued with cars from this era but the more I get into it the more I enjoy it. Like I said earlier it was my grandfathers car so it kind of fell into my lap. I'm around new cars every day so something like this is much more interesting to me. And the way these cars were designed is brilliant but at the same time simple enough that even though I'm no mechanic myself I think I could tell you how just about every component of the car works. It has been a lot of fun learning how everything works. Just spent some time figuring out why I couldn't get spark, ended up hooking up a new coil and installing a new ignition condenser and she fired right up.

 

I'll try post some pictures tomorrow too. The car is a 1925 Business Sedan. Looks just about identical to the one in your profile picture!

[Mpgp1999]

Use heavy grease such as wt15000

[Phil 32DL6]

 

2nd gear makes a lot of noise when accelerating or decelerating...

It MAY just be that you're hearing more noise than you're expecting because your have straight-cut gears in there as opposed to the generally quieter helical gears that came along later?

[EricHoman]

I took the clutch cover off today to see what it looks like. The plates dont seem to be gummed up because if I press in the clutch and reach in with my other hand the plates seem to move around pretty freely. If I only push the clutch in however they do not seem to separate much at all. Is this normal?

Also when you release the clutch the pedal it does not come all the way out by itself, while driving I do not feel any slippage however.

[platt-deutsch]

Adjust the clutch linkage so there is only about 3/4 free pedal at the top of the stroke. That will cause the plates to separate farther when you depress it.

[EricHoman]

I was thinking about doing that but wasn't sure if something else was the problem. Are the plates supposed to some how be spring loaded that they separate when the clutch pedal is pressed or are they just supposed to come apart on their own?

[cahartley]

There must be return spring under there somewhere.

I just went out to the shed to check from under the hood on mine but can't see anything.

There are a number of OLD tractors that don't have a means for pulling the thrust bearing out of service when needed.

They don't need springs as the weight of the hand clutch levers keeps the clutch collars free from the pressure plate.

Edited May 29, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[EricHoman]

Thanks cahartley, you are talking about the release of the clutch pedal / throwout bearing correct? On my car there does not appear to be any sort of exterior return spring for the pedal, not a big deal. But what about the driven / driving plates? Is there something that should cause these plates to separate when they aren't held tightly together or is the lack of pressure supposed to be enough to allow the driving / driven plates to spin freely from one another?

 

I do have someone who is a little more familiar with the workings of a clutch looking at it for me this weekend as well. Perhaps he will be able to give me some answers after seeing it in person!

[cahartley]

I lifted the floor boards to take a look and there is no return spring....... 

It's possible there might be a spring attached to the throwout bearing yoke inside the bell housing.

I can't recommend this book enough! >>> http://www.faxonautoliterature.com/1914-1927-Dodge-Bros-Graham-Bros-Repair-Shop-Manual-Reprint-P9793.aspx

Edited May 29, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[cahartley]

From the above suggested manual:

[MikeC5]

Yes there is a stout spring inside the bell housing.

[Rogillio]

Great thread!  I have been thinking I need to add fluid to both of my 1926 Coupes.  I found the plates but have not taken the cover off.....afraid of what I might find.  :-)  I did order some 600W oil off of eBay when I read this.  I'm still confused on the fuild level it needs to be filled to?

 

I recently replace the tube that goes from grease cup on the floow to the clutch throughout bearing.  It was a major pain to get the tube filled with gease using just the cup.  I finally made a fitting that connects to the bellhousing and put a zerk fitting in and put plenty of grease on the throughout bearing.  I think the brass grease cup is slightly stripped.  Not too worried as it is easy enough to remove that plate and use my threaded fitting with zerk fitting.

[MikeC5]

With a bit of filing and finesse I'll bet you could braze/silver solder a fitting inside the grease cup and then cover it with the cap to keep the original look. 

[Rogillio]

With a bit of filing and finesse I'll bet you could braze/silver solder a fitting inside the grease cup and then cover it with the cap to keep the original look.

LOL. Maybe.

[Rogillio]

What weight oil goes in the rear differential? 

[cahartley]

600.........and it's time consuming waiting for the oil to flow.

It'll go a lot quicker if you can heat the oil first.

[EricHoman]

Hey guys, I never posted pictures like I said I would but I finally have a couple! Took the car out to a small car show over the weekend.

 

In response to my earlier question about the clutch seeming to drag a bit even with the pedal fully depressed I did have some luck. I adjusted the pedal itself to allow for a longer throw to further disengage the pressure plate and I also sprayed all of the plates with brake cleaner and engaged/disengaged the clutch a few times.

 

The transmission gears do still pick up a little bit of speed even with the clutch depressed but it is much better than before and its slow enough that I can go from the car idling in neutral to first gear (or any gear for that matter) with very little grinding of the gears.

 

Thanks again for all your help!

[MikeC5]

Very nice looking car!  Looks like original leather on the seats.

[cahartley]

I'm SURE you're pretty proud of that car Eric! And you SHOULD be....... 

I'll happily trade bumpers with you....... 

 

It just dawned on me........maybe you do and maybe you don't but the front seat cushion is hinged at the front and lifts to reveal a storage area.......

Edited June 16, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history)

[EricHoman]

Thanks! As far as I can tell the leather on the seats is original, I try to be very careful to be easy on them. As far as I can tell just about everything on the car besides the running boards is original. It was also repainted and had the bumpers re-chromed in the late '80s.

 

And I was aware of the folding seat! We have a tool pouch with a few of the original tools as well as the hand crank stored under there.

Edited June 16, 2015 by EricH (see edit history)

[Rogillio]

I took the cover off the second of my DB coupes and it it was dry.  It has been sitting for 5 or 6 years so I don't know if was completely dry.  I put about 3/4 of a qt in.  I looked at my other coupe and it was well lubed but I could not see a 'level'.  I put what was left in the qt in there.  I decided 1 qt was not enough for 2 cars so I ordered a gallon of 600W from Amazon for $52.

 

I've been looking in the books and it says "maximum of 5 pints" so 2.5 qts.  It says do not fill higher than the reverse gear idler something-or-nother.  No idea what that might be?  Can someone tell me how to guage the level?

[cahartley]

I wouldn't worry about the level as long as it's enough.

I purposely over filled mine a bit to help create drag to reduce clashing....... 

[EricHoman]

If you look on the drivers side of your transmission on the outside you'll see a plate held on by I believe 6 bolts. This plate holds the reverse gear. With the fluid drained you will be able to actually see this gear through the access plate in the top of the transmission. I just made sure the gear and its bracket were covered with oil.

[JayG]

There's a line on that plate and it says fill to this line.  Not that you can see the line when filling it but ....

[dwollam]

As I noted earlier in this post, the upper side bolt beside that line you are talking about is the level "plug". Not the top one but one of the side bolts. Takes a 1/2" wrench I believe. Fill it until oil runs out that bolt hole.

 

Dave