MochetVelo Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Should no. 1 plug ignite when the timing mark on the flywheel is 3/8" past the marks on the engine? If so, my timing is way off. I might have gears misaligned or I used the wrong one of the two slots in the magneto shaft. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Phil the first mark is TDC and the second mark is 3/8 to the right of the first mark and is the allignment mark. So if you line up with this 2nd mark (as per the manual) you are setting the timing retarded after TDC . I firmly believe with fixed ignition that this must be wrong. I do set my ignition like this but have fitted variable ignition and I set it retarded on this position and run with the ignition timing advanced from this position.-Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 Is there a way to tell when the magneto is about to send a pulse to plug no. 1? That would help me align the timing gears. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Phil When the distributor rotor is on segment number one and the points are just about to open is the point you want . Surprisingly although it sounds easy it always seems a little difficult to determine the exact position where the points are just about to open. When you find this point you are meant to mesh the magneto drive to the camshaft drive with the flywheel lined up with the second mark and the timing is set .You can put a timing light on the lead to Number one and power it with a 12 v car battery. Just like normal it will pulse when number one fires off which might help you as well -Karl Edited May 20, 2015 by Hupdoc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks. I'll remove the magneto and try to align it correctly. I recall that there is a potential oil leak out the timing gear opening. Is there an insert of some kind that will seal this opening? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 20, 2015 Author Share Posted May 20, 2015 I found Max's past suggestion on the magneto gear leak: "Assuming that you have bored the mag gear cover and installed a lip type oil seal to run on the mag drive gear you can further make an oil baffle plate from thin metal and install it between the cam gear and the mag gear to help divert the splash from the cam gear which is working like a pump. Make the baffle to just clear the cam gear." I can picture a lip seal pressed into the magneto shaft opening. Any suggestion for what seal to use there? Also, I don't understand the baffle. Is this perpendicular to the gears and attached somehow to the cover? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I've never used a baffle and the oil leak is minimal -Perhaps a drop under the cover at the end of long run (given the oil leaks from the breather overflow this is tiny in comparison) I do have the the lip seal in the front of the gear cover . Taking the magneto out to set it up on a bench is fine but it's very easy to knock the mag drive installing it and upset everything again. The lip seal also bears on the magneto drive shaft meaning even a slight knock to the gear cover may move the driveshaft and upset the timing. I set mine up on the bench and then use Andreas nail polish to mark the correct posiion of the drive wheel to make sure it stays correct -Still normally end up doing it a few times to get it right -Karl Edited May 21, 2015 by Hupdoc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Speaking of magnetos and drive gears, a friend of mine just bought a 1910 Model 20, he's missing the magneto, magneto drive gear, and cover. Anyone have a spare of any/all? I just looked in the 1911 edition of the parts book, a complete magneto assembly ready to bolt to engine was $75! That was 10% of the cost of the car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 I would think the magneto, which is a Bosch DU4, would be easy to purchase. There are always some on eBay. Is there anything unique about the one on the Hupp? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 No, the DU 4 Magneto is easy.....but he has no gear nor cover, those might be difficult....anyone have one apart, to get diameter of gear and number of teeth? Thanks dc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I'll take mine out this weekend. Just tell me what info/photos you need. The cover should be a simple one to cast. I could take all the dimensions and a tracing. A wood pattern should be pretty simple to make. I would think one could make a solid pattern, then cut it in half and hollow it out. It could then be cast in iron for around $10 -15 each. Phil Edited May 21, 2015 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 If you're taking apart, then gear diameter, both outer and at root of teeth, number of teeth, width of gear, and any pitch measurements you can take (see attached)I agree the cover could be easily cast, I've worked with a foundry that does bronze casting Very inexpensively, relatively speaking. Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Could I just scan the gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 G,day Huppers Buying a DU4. Just check the rotation as a Hup 20 is reverse to the more common varieties. They can of course be reversed by changing the points block or in dire straits by filing off the brass key so that the points open as the armature pole shoe is leaving the magnet shoe by 020 thou . Illustrated in the handbook . Don't forget the distributer turns opposite to the armature so the firing order on the cap is opposite to what you might think. The magneto gear is the same configuration as the crankshaft gear except for the centre. We once had a mag gear made up by putting a new centre into a crank gear.The only mag gears that I have seen are steel sometimes case hardened perhaps because the earlier cam gears are fibre or later bronze . Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Easy to get the gears milled. If Phil posts the Diametrical pitch and number of teeth etc it might be fun to try and mill one up on my lathe . I have all the gear to do gear cutting but haven't had a crack yet -Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Well, at first I wondered about a scan, whether it would give the correct info, but yes, it would give everything but the width. There are sets of gears being sold now for camshaft drive, Max, are you saying the gear on the magneto shaft is the same as one of these? Or, are you talking about the gear that DRIVES the gear on the magneto shaft? Ebay auction attached, seems fair for the gears for sure. Looking at the magneto from the front (wire connection end), the magneto turns clockwise, correct? (or left hand, I believe, imagine grabbing the magneto shaft with your left hand, the rotation is in the direction your thumb points). http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hupmobile-Mod-20-Gears-for-Camshaft-and-Crankshaft-Antique-and-Vintage-car-/111675411316?hash=item1a005f8b74&vxp=mtr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 G,day Huppers Yes David, apart from the centre the gears are the same , If a crankshaft gear is available a new centre can be fitted to mount it on the magneto shaft. This would be only to save cutting the teeth. If a new Mag gear is to be made be sure to make the dia of the boss to take your new seal. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) I have the magneto out, but haven't taken the gear off the shaft yet. Here are some dimensions, per your drawing: Face Width: .500 Circular Thickness: .170 Bottom Land: .125 Tooth Depth: .209 (23 teeth) (a= .115; b= .94) Measurements are the best I can do with my digital calipers. I'll get the diameter when/if I pull the gear, but I'm leaving it on for now to see if my timing adjustments will work. Phil Edited May 23, 2015 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Here are a couple photos of the magneto timing settings, per the Book of Instructions. First, the flywheel is set so piston no. 1 is slightly past TDC on the compression stroke. Then, the front of the mag is removed to reveal the brush (not inserted in the photo) which is turned to about the 4:00 position. This is the setting for firing the no. 1 plug. The rear of the mag after removing the conducting bar and aluminum plate. This reveals the armature. I've marked it where the right side has 3/8" gap. Phil Edited May 23, 2015 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Thanks! dc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 G,day Huppers. Im surprised the magneto will spark on a three eight air gap. We run ours on twenty five thou. Never trust the timing mark on the flywheel without setting it yourself. We take out the valve bungs and with a torch find the top of the piston travel. Verify the flywheel mark ,then with a bicycle spoke bent on the end to 3/8 more turn the engine backwards until this dimension is achieved. Clamp up the gear to this with the points just breaking and you have 3/8 advance. On magnetos with a variable cam ring on full retard this will give a firing point of TDC and a slow idle.Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 G,day Huppers. Seems to me that the Hup instructors delighted in confusion. The service bulletin No 3 for July 1916 dealing with valve timing and spark on the model 20 instructs "Position of crank and piston at moment of firing with spark FULLY RETARDED is 13 deg. past TDC or 1 and 31/32 on the flywheel". Had they forgotten they had given the magneto fixed spark. If you set your fixed sparker to this setting you could kick your hat faster than your Hup Max Burke Nulkaba2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Hello MaxService bulletin ? I have always wondered if there might have been some.Can you tell us more ?How many ,subjects covered on the model 20.Thanks,Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 G,day Huppers. Ken the Hup service bulitans were reproduced in the USA Hup Herald over the last perhaps twenty years. Although I don't subscribe to it a friend with a 20 and a 38 E does and he copied the sheets that related to to the model N and 32 which we have had for many years. There are several inserts relating to the mod 20 among these sheets. Perhaps if you contact the editor they might be able to print off for you the sheets from back issues. How many relate to the 20 I don't know as we only got those as before mentioned. on the other hand someone with a Herald collection may help you. Some readers seem confused when I say we run on 3/8 inch advance. this is our distance that the piston is down the cylinder as it comes up on compression and not the dimension in inches on the fly wheel surface which we mark off from the 3/8 of the piston stroke. We do not run fixed spark on any of our cars but if any drivers wish to do so that's ok by me, as an apprentice we were taught fixed spark for engines with constant revs only. It pays to check the existing marks before doing anything . The flywheel may not be from that engine. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 Good news: I got the Hupp running today. It puffed a bit upon filling the priming cups, so that gave me hope when I filled the gas tank. After several tries, it started, ran and responded to the throttle. In the excitement, I'd forgotten to attach the shut-off switch to the magneto, so I had to cut off the gas valve and wait for it to die. I don't know if my timing is correct. It's set a bit advanced now; about 1.5"-2" before TDC, I think. It's also leaking exhaust from the manifold nut connection, so I'll try to seal that. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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