jvelde Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) I am chasing a couple of oil leaks that I need some help with. The first (and worst) seems to be around the oil pressure sender connection at the bottom of the block. What am I going to run into when I take this fitting out, is it just the oil pump driving the pressure gauge, or is there actually a device? Also, when I remove it, and I reconnect the line that goes into the cabin feeding the gauge, do I have to bleed the line at the gauge end? Second there is a leak where the vacuum advance connects to the distributor that just appeared a couple of weeks ago. If I remove the vacuum advance what problems should I look out for besides maybe needing a gasket? As always, any advice will be appreciated. Thanks, Edited June 14, 2018 by jvelde (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Well, I can answer the first part. I think! The fitting the pressure gauge line goes in to is simply screwed into the block. And bleeding is not needed. Oil leaking at the vacuum advance! Should be NO oil there. It would have to be coming up through the distributor. I have never seen that. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I think oil pressure is not a "sender" (But I may be incorrect). Pressure goes direct to the gauge via the thin tube. Modern cars have, in engineering speak, a pressure tranducer: a "sender" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Thanks Ben and Allan, I will take the "sender" plug out and see what I find. I will take the vacuum advance off the distributor and see what is going on in there too. Hope the distributor hasn't taken a hike on me, car tour (Texas Tour http://www.texastour.org/) coming up in 2 weeks in Tomball, Texas (Houston area), which is about 250 miles from here. Ben are you coming on the tour....?Thanks again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 First I have heard of it, John. Probably not. Does sound like fun. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Took the distributor cap off and found this mess - anyone have any idea why? Is this time to search for a new distributor, or is there a seal somewhere that could be the cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I think there might be a seal around the distributor shaft. It it was mine, I would remove the distributor, dis assemble the unit, clean, and then put it back to gether. You may also have a worn bushing. just my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I'm in the "worn bushing" camp. I have never seen that much oil in a distributor before! See if you can wobble the rotor, side to side, by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 There is a slightly beveled cork gasket at the bottom of the distributor. I don't know if there is a rubber o-ring that could replace that. I agree, there would have to be a way that the distributor was filling with oil, but it seems in that case that the points would be flooded and the car wouldn't run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) I'm in the "worn bushing" camp. I have never seen that much oil in a distributor before! See if you can wobble the rotor, side to side, by hand. That might also make some sense, but I'd first check to see if the cork o-ring gasket is still there. As to the oil sending unit line leaking, I would check that brass line for a crack, or otherwise I would check to be sure somebody didn't cross-thread the fitting that goes into the block. Also, are you sure you have a 1938-39 block in the car. The block was changed in 1940 and again in 1948 and 1951, but I never noticed that the oil line entry hole in the block was in a different place. Edited April 3, 2015 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 You could also have a block crankcase breather tube....... that would cause enough pressure in the pan to force oil out any easy escape. As noted above, oil does not normally get into the top of the distributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_B Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Here's a long shot, but easy to check. I'm not sure about the late 30's but the late 20' and early 30's distributors had an oil reservoir under the rotor. Remove the rotor and the distributor shaft is drilled out and there is a felt that is supposed to be oiled. The oil weeps out through a hole between the lobes of the cam to lube the shoe on the points. Sometimes the felt is missing. If someone over did it with the oil it would end up all over the inside of the distributor. I would check that out 'cause it's easy and I like to do the easy and inexpensive things first. Also clean up the mess and see if it reoccurs. It could be that someone had an accident and just spilled oil all over the place and didn't clean it up. If, after a clean up it comes back, where it first appears may give you a clue where it's coming from. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Could the vacuum advance diaphragm be damaged and somehow be pulling a vacuum inside the distributor which might suck oil up from the crankcase? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 One, read the manual. That distributor does have a grease reservoir chamber under the advance weights. The manual says to pump grease into the reservoir until it comes out a telltale hole on the side. Just maybe someone used oil instead of grease and way to much at thatThe cork gasket is between the block and the outer distributor shaft. It has nothing to do with oil getting inside the distributor body. it only keeps oil from leaking to the outside of the engine.By the way, does the engine run OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) One, read the manual. I sent John an exploded drawing of a distributer from the 1928-1952 Master chassis parts manual and a link to the 1948-1949 shop manual that can be downloaded from www.oldcarmanualproject.com . I my opinion the 1942 shop manual is the best for pre war Buick's, but do not have scans of the relevant pages. Edited April 3, 2015 by 1939_buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Wow - everyone decided to join the conversation today. I have been in the garage learning about distributors all day and haven't checked my in box or the forums. I did find the cork gasket/seal at the top of the shaft was in pieces, but there was no oil on the outside of the shaft housing, just inside the housing where the shaft goes past grease fitting. So, the oil was traveling up the shaft, which would be the washer and spacer just above the gear leaking. There was oil in the bottom of the distributor where the weights are, with some in the top as shown in the photo posted earlier. I am guessing the oil up top is from the spinning weights slinging it around. The rotor does not wobble, the gear looks pretty good, and everything cleaned up okay - need to locate the cork o-ring and the washer and spacer for the gear end so I can reinstall and see if it works. As for the leak at the sending plug, I removed it and I think someone used fitting with the wrong thread. Searched the area for correct thread and haven't found one, so I have used several wraps of Teflon tape and reinstalled. Haven't started car due to the other issue, we'll see if the temporary fix holds till I can find correct plug - probably will need to tap new threads if they don't clean up. Thanks for all the input, I will try to post results when I get parts located and installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Those fittings for the oil line are quite unique if they are original. They are an old standard compression fitting and modern fittings will not work in combination with them. Frankly, they are a PITA once they start leaking. The only cheater that I have found to work is to put a very small "O" ring around the oil line in front of the compression ferrule. It has worked for me in the short term so far - no guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Barney, I will check the breather tube to see if it is the issue as well. Allan, I did get the items you sent me and referred to them today more than a couple of times.Don, I have greased the fitting, so don't think that was the cause, but the oil flushed out all the grease. The first signs of this issue was about 3 weeks ago of really dark drippings which I guess was the greasy oil. Car was running fine, we took a one day club tour of about 80 miles since then with no issues.Ply33, I will check the diaphragm in the vacuum advance as well. Dave B, the distributor had new parts installed about 3 years ago, and has been fine till now, so think this is a newer issue.Thanks for all the ideas, I will be busy again with this tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenz38 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Maybe You have too much crankcase pressure ? That can may be the reason for pump oil into the Dist. How old is your engine ? a little oil in it, with a old "airpump"- engine is normal.I had the same problem, i clean up the dist all 500 (?) miles, then there was a very little bit inside, but under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 Jenz, the engine was rebuilt about 15 years and 25,000 miles ago. I have put about half of those miles on in the last 4.5 years.Ply33, I am able to pull a vacuum on the advance (by mouth) and it holds against my tongue for a bit - trying to devise a way to pull a vacuum and have it hold longer (or not). Not ready to send Kanter $85 + $45 core deposit yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trp3141592 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Hi,Terrill Machine in Deleon, TX, will rebuild your vacuum advance, but it's no cheaper than Kanter. I have had fuel pumps and vac's done there with excellent results.--Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenz38 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 For check,you can loosen the tube on the carb side an install a small tight hose on it and suck with your mouth, if its thigt you will see a moving from your advance plate.Or on can side,drive off the line, close the hole with your finger, then move the advance plate inside, if you feel a differend between with and without your finger on it, then is the diaphragm ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 Thanks Tom - I am familiar with Terrill, I have a rebuilt fuel gauge from them, and they did some of the machine work for the prior owner.Jenz, I have been able to pull a vacuum on the unit and it seems to hold ok, so I reinstalled it today. I still need to check the breather tube. Since I can't establish a vacuum problem pulling the oil up the shaft, it makes sense that some pressure was forcing oil up the shaft and into the lower chamber of the distributor and then splashing into the upper chamber. About the only thing remaining, I guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Since the breather tube is over an inch in diameter, it is very unlikely that it is plugged and not venting. Your engine would have to be in pretty bad shape for blowby to pressurize the engine. Is the oil in the distributor something that developed suddenly, or was it something you just noticed? (did I miss something in previous comments?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 Don, I noticed the dark drips about a month ago. I don't know how long the oil had been accumulating in the lower part of the dist. before it started showing up. I probably had not had the cap off in over two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 I did check the draft tube, which was fine, have cleaned and reassembled everything and really haven't figured out why this problem occurred, but car is up and running. I drove it several miles and took the vacuum plate off to see if there was any oil in the lower chamber - everything looked dry and in order. So, I will drive it more this week before I take it on the Texas Tour next week and see how it does.Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 It would be nice if you could have come down to Brenham this weekend for the Bluebonnet meet and tour. Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio sponsor a spring and fall BCA Regional. The fall Regional is scheduled for Sept 12 in Waxahachie TX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Barney, Buicks and Bluebonnets is on my list for next year unless something prevents me from making it. I really need to go to the Texas Tour this year - our club will be the host in either 2017 or 2018. Couldn't see doing both within a week of each other considering the cost and the distance. As for the Fall Regional, we will probably make it to that again this year. We were there in 2013 and had a fun day at Getzendaner Park - some really interesting cars. Hope you post some photos of the Buicks & Bluebonnets as you have in the past.Thanks,<o:p></o:p> Edited April 9, 2015 by jvelde (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 Update and a new idea:I have been slow in getting back to this issue, which has not been resolved, so I will try get back on it. I have checked the oil pressure with a gauge other than the dash gauge, and the oil pressure cold is close to 80 psi and warm is nearly 50 psi at idle. So, I am about to pull the oil pan and check the pressure relief valve plunger and spring. Question is, how can I check the spring strength without reinstalling? I don't want to clean it up and reinstall to find the spring tension is too strong and have to pull the pan and pump again.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 J.Velde,You have 80# cold and 50# @ idle !I had to put a 3/8" spacer behind my pressure relief spring to get that.But my bottom plate on the oil pump was leaking badly.I emoried it flat and that solved the leaking.In checking my spring it measured 2 3/4" long.Don't know the strength.You need to make sure the pressure relief piston slides freely and the relief port is not clogged.Also clean the "sponge" that is in the oil pick up float. Mike in Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 (edited) Thanks Mike. I have gaskets coming from CARS, and when they arrive I will get into this further. I have been checking for availability of replacement for the relief valve spring, and AutoZone seems to have them. The only kit I see that includes the spring is what's available from Kanter - all the others seem to have gears, shaft and plunger but no spring. Hope I find the plunger or ports gunked up and that a simple cleaning solves the issue. Edited May 30, 2015 by J. Velde (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer1 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) This might just be a bit of useless information but there is a way to calculate spring weight. This applies to coil springs and is quite simple,i don't know what pressures are preferred but as a general rule of thumb 10psi/1000rpm seems to be the norm on most high-ish rpm engines of which most vintage cars are not ! 30-35 psi oil on an engine that spins up to 3000rpm should be fine... formula below.HOW TO RATE COIL SPRINGS WITHOUT A RATERMeasurements are in imperial.Spring rate(lbs./inch) = Gx(DxDxDxD) 8xNx(DxDxD)D on top line is wire diameter.D on bottom line is (mean coil diameter) G=Torsional modulus for steel = 11, 250, 000 D=Wire Diameter in Inches N=Number of Active Coils D=Mean Coil Diameter in Inches. Mean Diameter is: I.D. = 1 Wire plus inside Diameter O.D. = 1 Wire minus outside Diameter 8= A Constant for all Coil Springs HOW TO DETERMINE ACTIVE COILS OF A COIL SPRING Count total number of coils, subtract a coil for each coil that touches, these are dead coils. Ground flat ends are a dead coil. Start count with cut-off end facing you directly above would be one and so on. Not all coil springs are even coiled. You can have 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 or 1/8 of a coil (Example 10 1/8 coils). If you cut one coil from a spring, the rate will increase. Increasing wire diameter, will cause a great increase in rate. Edited May 31, 2015 by Flyer1 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 An original unmolested pressure releif spring has the following dimensions taken from a running engine with the usual Buick oil pressure chractersitics (45psi running at speed warm ): Outside diameter: .380"Free length: 3.667" (+ / -)Wire diameter: .050" Keeping in mind that this was in a 80K mile engine that was near 80 years old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Engle Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 If you are concerned about the spring being improper, take it to a local shop specializing in engine rebuilds. They have valve spring gauges to measure the spring rate. they can easily check your spring. Bob Engle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks for the responses, once I see what the pump and relief valve look like I will decide what the next step is. I'll come back with a report when I have something figured out. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danhar1960 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 An original unmolested pressure releif spring has the following dimensions taken from a running engine with the usual Buick oil pressure chractersitics (45psi running at speed warm ): Outside diameter: .380"Free length: 3.667" (+ / -)Wire diameter: .050" You might need to add the number of coils to those specs Don. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Danny, Good point. There are 25 full coils. A bit tough to count because of the closed coils on the end. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvelde Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Well, no gaskets from CARS - they responded to my e-mail query that they were awaiting pan gasket from supplier...would ship when received with tracking info! Not going to tear into this till I have the gaskets, but now I know what to look for in determining if the spring is proper or not. Thanks for all the specs Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 As far as I'm concerned, no one beats Bobs Automobilia for parts and service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 J. Order your gaskets from "Olson's Gaskets Inc." 3059 Opdal Road E, Port Orchard, Wash. 98366. Ph 360-871-1207 '40 Buick pan gasket P/N 36068 (320cid) = $25.00 + $6.50 shipping. I bought 2 and shipping was the same. I made my own gasket for between the block and the oil pump from a manila folder, and used a THIN coat of Permatex on the bottom plate of the oil pump. PS... "Hooks Law" states that the Force required to compress or expand a spring is directly proportional to the load applied, within the elastic limit of the spring. If what Don M. says about the spring being 3.667" long is true, no wonder I had to stick a 3/8" spacer behind mine to get decent oil pressure. Mike in Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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