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48 Super Clutch problem


Guest Blackpack

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Guest Blackpack

Well, the saga continues. Got the good news today that my beloved 48 Super was ready for pick up, but when I went to leave the parking lot, the car shook as violently in first and reverse gear as it did when I dropped the car off! The mechanic took a ride with me and said that when he drove it after the repair, that it shook a little in reverse, but acknowledged that it was shaking in first gear much worse since he drove it earlier today. I'm not sure what else it could be. Brand new clutch, flywheel resurfaced, new seals in gear box and not leaking. Could it be a broken engine mount?

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Guest Blackpack

Is the thrust pad the rubber part of the transmission mount? I check the transmission mount prior to re-install and it was in good shape. I did, however just order two new engine mounts just in case

Edited by Blackpack (see edit history)
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Is the thrust pad the rubber part of the transmission mount? I check the transmission mount prior to re-install and it was in good shape. I did, however just order two new engine mounts just in case

Yes. I would get a new mount as well. It is hard to determine the integrity of the rubber by looking at it.

Also, how many miles did you drive the vehicle? It is possible the mechanic with greasy hands handled the clutch plate in such a way he left grease on it. Some drive time should remove that surface grease.

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Guest Blackpack

I don't think they replaced the pilot bearing, but would that cause a shake? I'm telling you...this isn't just a little shimmy. That car shakes violently when taking off, but does not shake while driving (if you can get it to that point)

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I don't think they replaced the pilot bearing, but would that cause a shake? I'm telling you...this isn't just a little shimmy. That car shakes violently when taking off, but does not shake while driving (if you can get it to that point)

I think the pilot bearing would have to be very worn to cause this bad clutch shutter. It appears to me the clutch is still chattering but once fully engaged appears fine. How many miles with stop and go did the Buick be driven?

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Guest 53 Roady

All of the mounts do need to be checked. The problem of the loose throw out bearing support discussed above will often lead to a bad pilot bearing. I think most guys always replace the pilot with the clutch so maybe this has been done? I sure hope you don't have to have the tranny out again...but..if you do I think it is time for some dial indicator work to see if the clutch plate is true {fig 4-9} in the 52 book, and also to see if the bell housing is true and properly aligned. The bell hosing should be fine unless someone has mixed parts.

Good Luck

Pat

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Was it here that someone said there is a difference in the early and later 40's bell housings? At any rate, do you have a flat area around you where you can try starting out in 2nd gear to see if you still have the problem? It's sounding to me like there are worn bearings on the first / reverse axle in the trans ( axle being my terminology)

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Guest Blackpack

Still stumped on the shaking of my 48 Super. Things that have been thus far...Transmission rebuilt and resealed. New clutch disk and pressure plate. New thrust pad and transmission mount. I stopped by to check on the car today and the mechanic says it still shakes badly, but he doesn't feel the shaking in the clutch. He says it feels like its coming from the rear half of the car and says it's almost like something is out of alignment. He said when he dropped the rear axel out of the way, the torsion bars on the shocks moved much easier than he thought they should. I thought I read something in this thread about a strut rod adjustment. The mechanic says this sounds like it could be the culprit, but I don't find anything in the shop manual about an adjustment. Only a replacement, which sounds like a major task. Any ideas? Has anybody ever adjusted the strut rod? I am approaching 60 days in the shop. I'm starting to get antsy and I know the mechanic would like to finish this job up and get onto other projects

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At this point the shaking occurs while under load of the engine transmission sending power to the rear wheels? This only occurs in first gear? If you are coasting the shaking is not present?

The threaded strut rod would have the ability to move the axle from side to side. How is the rear of the car tracking with the front of car? Placing the car on an alignment rack and hanging the alignment heads on all 4 wheels to check the thrust angle is a good step in determining if the rear is in alignment with the front.

Off set drive angles of the drive shaft provide a vibration but a sever shaking not so much.

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Guest 53 Roady

I'm still wondering if the front bearing in the trans is not retained enough and the pilot bearing is bad. Back in the day my buddies could change their Ford trans in an hour and to add insult Buick had this design flaw. In low gear the torque would twist the pilot shaft which then attempted to bend the clutch plate causing a shake.

Pat

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Guest Blackpack

Chris, I think they wer going to put it on the alignment rack tonight and see how it was tracking.

pat, I honestly don't knopw if they replaced the gearing. I do know that the mechanic said they had to orde a special tool to remove a bearing, but I don't know if they replaced it or needed to simply remove the existing bearing to get to the synchronizer. The mechanic says the shaking seems to come from the rear of the car and it is a pretty bad shake

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" New clutch disk and pressure plate."...that does not mean they are not defective. Old Fords had a clutch disc with no wave spring between clutch faces. You just had to learn to slip it just right to make a seamless start. Maybe you and your mechanic can take it an oil change place with a pit to see what is happening from below.

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Guest Blackpack

Chris, I think that was the plan for today, but I have not heard anything back yet.

Don, I still have confidence in the mechanic at this point. At least with his effort to resolve this. He's getting some advice from a high profile Buick Club member which makes me feel better. There doesn't seem to be a lot of mechanics in my area that know how to work on these old cars. Friday will be two months since I took it in and I'm sure the mechanic would like to get this car off his rack

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Stick a fist full of hundred dollar bills under the wiper and send it my way. If the mechanic is younger than the car OR can't take and find an iron clad clad leave to himself from a three-rail billiard shot, you've got trouble in Franklin.

I didn't write nuthin 'till the 59th post, now that's restraint.

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

Bernie, love your post. We'll see if this last idea works and then go from there. I've already spent a few hundred, but did get the clutch disk resurfaced, a new pressure plate, a new syncronizer and the transmission sealed as it should have been in the first place

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Guest 53 Roady

If the mechanic still wants to fix the car and is willing to learn you can learn with him...And he has a lift! Nothing Buick is easy and the older ones are even harder. Your 48 can eventually drive smooth as silk.

Pat

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I agree that learning is necessary. Finding a mechanic that understands these older Buicks that are a PITA at best when it comes to transmission work, is almost impossible. However, why did he "return" the car when he knew there still was a problem? The job should have been finished.

Actually I feel for folks I read about on this forum that have difficulties in sending their cars to someone else for repairs. I have always done all my own work so when something goes wrong on a repair (and it can) - the person to blame isn't far away!

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Guest Blackpack

Don,

I also like to do my own work, but I was intimidated by this. First, of all, I don't have an extra long rack to work on it and secondly, I have never worked on a Buick. I have taken Thunderbirds apart nut and bolt and put them back together (and yes, I had parts left over). If there were no sense of urgency from the mechanic, I would pull it and go somewhere else, but I can see that he is working hard to figure this out. As far as why they tried to return the car when it was still shaking? That is a mystery, but in my old age, I have learned that "good enough" is not an option. I've learned to push back in order to get things done right.

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Ah, lunch time, warmed up spaghetti, close the database, and open the forum. Interesting, I don't mind a mid-'50's T-Bird, but the mid '60's use bolts big enough for howitzers. And that plate steel girdle that spans the transmission makes me worry the bolt holes might not match when I put it back. Kind of makes a Buick look easy.

Diagnosing a car is as risky as going to a doctor and saying "My arm hurts." It is a hell of a lot better to walk in with the bone sticking out through the skin and say "Fix that."

Took out the old clutch, put in a new clutch, still does the same thing. I bet its not the clutch. How'd it do with a jack under the rear end and the wheels just raised off the ground? Is there a little tape residue on the windshield from driving with a vacuum gauge taped to it? Maybe a dwell meter and volt meter taped next to it.

When the topic started and the salesman was mentioned I remembered looking at a red Firebird convertible a few years back. It shook so bad I was afraid to drive it back, but I did. I asked the salesman why it was on the lot like that. He said he wouldn't know. They never let him drive the expensive cars.

"Good enough" is a fun one. I hired a body guy to do some alignments of panels on a Caddy I was working on. The passenger door shot like a catapult when the button was pushed. The driver's door was smooth and worked fine. I told him to make the passenger door just like the driver's. He farted around until it only popped a little and said that looked good enough. I asked him if he missed Sesame Street the day they did "just like". He seemed offended, but happy when it was right.

Take it home and fix it. You'll get it back with a little piece of cardboard folded under the dash trim. That will have to stay there until you finally fix the source of all the vibration.

Now I'm smiling and ready to dump the cold spaghetti and take my convertible up to the China Buffet.

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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At 73 I find that I am a lot slower than I used to be. Doing the clutch on my'38 Roadmaster took longer than it should have. But I don't have a rack and had to just work laying on my back.

Unfortunately, your experience with mechanics is pretty common. Old cars just do not fit in well with other more profitable jobs on the newer cars. Just finding someone willing to try is difficult so I understand your position.

I feel that the torque tube Buicks are among the most difficult cars on which to do clutch and transmission work

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Guest 53 Roady

My first car was a 57 Buick...the one that got away. 30 years ago I see this 57 Olds for sale. Three back windows..looks like a Buick...but it's got an open driveshaft! I had it made until last year when my dear brother gave my wife a 53 Buick. Some days the irony is inescapable.

Pat

Edited by 53 Roady (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

For anyone interested. Tracking of the car is good with no noise in the rear end, but there is a noise coming from the transmission, so now the tranny has to cone back out. Sounds like I'm going to be searching for parts again soon. Grr

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Guest 53 Roady

I am sorry for the need to remove. One thing to check: After the trans is on the bench bolt it to the bell housing like you had it in the car. Then grab the snout where the throwout bearing slides and see how loose it is. Page 4-3 of my 52 book mentions a spring washer between the throwout sleeve and the outer race of the trans main drive gear bearing. I think somebody here used gaskets to shim this area where I used the Ford snout. Anyway if it wiggles a lot it can be your problem. Also is your pilot bearing in the crank present and healthy. The book shows a ball bearing but many cars use bronze bushings which get wallowed out and loose.

Good luck

Pat

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The level of perfection one can achieve is directly proportional to the number of times they are willing to do it over. "Willing" is the key. That brings Murphy's Law into play. If you are truly willing to do it over you won't have to.

Bernie

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Dear backpack there was a mention of a "strut" bar earlier. Unfortunately some folks with good intentions but the wrong words confuse the issue. A rear panhard bar is the bar that centers or positions the axle side to side with reference to the frame of the car. The"strut" bar is an adjustable small diameter rod on the underside of the frame attached to the rear crossmember under the trans. and clutch. It creates a "truss" and is used to reduce "chatter" on the enclosed Buick drive line by tightening. It takes a bit more slack from the attaching parts. You would have to research a bit to find the adjusting instructions in the Buick books. I buy all I think will be helpful then forget which book I saw it in! I try to be really carefully when stating issues when trying to help as someone could be sent off to the wrong end of the car by a wrong ID.I hope this description helps clear things up at least about component names. Problem is different parts of the world call a hood a bonnet, so translation presents its own difficulties. When I rebuilt the drive line in my 39, I did not have the option of someone else working on it. Self teaching is sometimes painful, but the mechanic working on it typically has higher motivation to carefully get it right. When I spun the trans out of the car it "whirred" a bit but did not seem too loud bearing wise. When I installed and drove it, WOW! It growled and howled! I replaced front and rear bearings and when spun by hand was so much quieter. The pilot bearing is easy to remove, like everything there is a"trick" of the trade. Wheel bearing grease packed in the cavity and behind the pilot bearing till there is no void. Use a rod or round stock same diameter as front trans shaft. Pound the grease by striking the rod with a hammer and it will force the bearing out with"hydraulic" pressure, without damage to anything. Hope this helps, but advice, you know is worth what you pay for it! I personally offer money back on what I give!

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Guest Blackpack

You guys are great and I appreciate all of the input.. At this point I'll take a look at anything. The mechanic working on the gear box says he's almost 100% sure it's in the gear box somewhere in the gears below. Not sure why that wasn't checked when he had the top part out to change the synchronizer, but hopefully he'll get it back to the other mechanic and get it re-installed next week. My frustration comes in how long it's taking to get this done. The mechanic working on the tranny does not share my sense of urgency, but starting with someone else at this point is like swimming half way across a lake, deciding you can't make it and turn around and swim back. May as well go all the way. I REALLY need to find a mechanic in the Indianapolis (southside) area that really knows how to work on these cars and not just say he can and then learn as he goes. I've been a gentleman up to this point, but I think come Monday, I'm going to need to get firm with the mechanic. grrr

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Posting at 02:46 AM and ending in grrrrr is not good. Hopefully your T-Bird is running and reliable for this summer. It is really time to bring the car home, buy a little garage equipment and dig in. You will be extremely happy with the results. From the messages, you can write sentences, punctuate, capitalize; with those skills you can read and interpret the manuals pretty well. And you will be likely to follow the instructions to the letter.

 

I don't remember the moment I became a mechanic, but I know I never stood next to a couple of rats that were turned into coachmen, it ain't magic.

 

Line up a helper at $15 per hour, a good one. Then you will have to make the commitment to be there providing work. That gets the job done. Buy a quality 3 1/2 ton, two speed jack and two set of Hein Werner jack stands and any other tools to supplement your existing equipment. Don't delegate a big portion of the fun.

 

I had a good friend who was my cardiologist. He loved old cars and kept trying to get into an adult Ed program for mechanics. The quota was never met. At the time I was teaching an HVAC apprenticeship program and he asked if I would teach a private class for him once a week (sit on a bucket, point and grunt while he worked). He loved it. Once he was working under his truck while I sat to the side. Sweat was pouring off him and he said "Geez, for years I have been telling patients that work was not a cardiac workout. By, did I get that wrong!" He wore gloves but always worried about cleaning his hands for surgery. Great hobby memories. And I know he was asleep at a quarter to three those mornings.

 

Due to my advancing age I farmed out some work a couple of years age. Things weren't right until I disassembled everything and painstakingly reassembled it all. About the only thing I trust to go out now is a tire change or alternator rebuild. And I am very satisfied with the policy, thank you.

Bernie

 

BTW- does anyone have a good Coats tire machine within 100 miles of Rochester, NY.

Bernie

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" From the messages, you can write sentences, punctuate, capitalize; with those skills you can read and interpret the manuals pretty well. And you will be likely to follow the instructions to the letter."

One of the best statements on these forums!  And if you are really physically unable to do the "grunt work" be sure that 'your mechanic' has those skills.  The few that I let work on my cars could have been Bernie's cardiologist...they are that smart, detail oriented and really understand how things work.

Willie

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The few that I let work on my cars could have been Bernie's cardiologist...they are that smart, detail oriented and really understand how things work.

Willie

Thanks, but I don't know anything about Bernie's heart.

(+1 on Flattop's quote above.)

:D

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Guest Blackpack

Hi Guys,

 

Here is the latest on my 48 Super. Mechanic called this morning after taking the entire gear box apart and said that whoever put this thing together last time failed to put the lock pin and retaining spring back onto the reverse idler gear and everything was pretty much just sitting in the bottom of the gear box all torn up. He says he's not sure that this was causing my vibration, but it definitely needed to be fixed. Trying to source parts now. You guys are all probably think by now that I'm a real knot head by now, but as I said earlier in this thread, I actually paid a professional inspection company to drive and inspect the car before purchase and they reported no problems.

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Hi Guys,

 

Here is the latest on my 48 Super. Mechanic called this morning after taking the entire gear box apart and said that whoever put this thing together last time failed to put the lock pin and retaining spring back onto the reverse idler gear and everything was pretty much just sitting in the bottom of the gear box all torn up. He says he's not sure that this was causing my vibration, but it definitely needed to be fixed. Trying to source parts now. You guys are all probably think by now that I'm a real knot head by now, but as I said earlier in this thread, I actually paid a professional inspection company to drive and inspect the car before purchase and they reported no problems.

 

No one thinks you are a knot head.  I think you put your trust in someone to give you a good inspection and a fair deal on a Buick.   Both have appeared to failed you.  Things like this diminish faith in goodness of people to treat others a they would like to be treated.   Chalk it up as learning experience.   

 

I hope this handles you chattering.  I suspect it will.   

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Guest Blackpack

Okay, Mechanic called and said parts I ordered did not include the pin needed for the reverse idler gear shaft, which I have attached a picture of. The shop manual does not show a very good picture of what goes in the hole in the shaft. Does anyone have a photo of what this should look like when the gear is on the shaft? The problem is that whatever was supposed to be there before, was missing in my gear box, which allowed the gear to slide freely up and down the shaft, chewing up gears. Help is appreciated. If anyone has specs on this pin, I can have my friend that owns a machine shop make one for me. Thanks

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